Can I ruffle some feathers?

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Chimmy's picture
Joined: 08/03/01
Posts: 2775
Can I ruffle some feathers?

So a friend of the family kinda has it out for me. I offended her while complaining about the ACOG's recent stance on homebirth (she's an MD/GP) and ever since then she's been attacking homebirth. Anyways - more to the story but you get the idea. So her latest stunt has been getting people riled up about homebirth, today she posted a link from the infamous Keptical OB (I can hear the groans now) about the horrible homebirth death stats of the US and Austrailia. Claiming it is 100% true. Read: see, see!!! I'm right! Lol

Okay ... so for those who have it in them, here's the article. Anyone wanna chew on it?

WA: 20-fold increase in hypoxic deaths at homebirth

Joined: 11/23/07
Posts: 870

first thing i notice wheni go to the site... the large letters at the top spell out "the SOB" LOL.....

and the second thing i notice is that its written in that "we're professionals and we have much higher intellect than you and speak in much more specified terms" language that NOBODY, especially the other OB's reading it, understand. its like stereo instructions. its made to make people think they must be smarter because its written in such a complicated manner.

well, i could write instructions to brush your teeth like that, but that doesnt make the process beyond a normal persons understanding or ability.

Mom2ThreeKiddos's picture
Joined: 09/15/09
Posts: 1380

Ahhh Dr. Amy, you got to love her right. LOL

The "study" done in Autralia has a very very small sample size. I don't even know if that would be statistically relevant.

Chimmy's picture
Joined: 08/03/01
Posts: 2775

SOB - hilarious. I LOVE it. Dr. Amy is very well known in the birth junkie communty - she's excellent at telling natural birthers, homebirth'ers (go me with my bad english) & so forth how awful we are. I'm waiting on facebook for comments to begin flying because they will, they always do lol

ETA: LOL yes. Dr. Amy. Isn't she fun?

Amber_daisy's picture
Joined: 10/17/06
Posts: 567

Oooh, "she who shall not be named" Lol Yeah, like I'm going to take her seriously.

Throw this one back at her:
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/abstract/cmaj.081869v1

MrsMangoBabe's picture
Joined: 04/09/07
Posts: 2276

my first thought was also that the sample size in the homebirth group is a bit low to get an accurate indication of something as rare as mortality.

I looked at the comments I do think the commenters have a point that resusitation should be performed on a flat surface to make it easier to establish an airway, not with the baby all crumpled in the mother's arms like in the photo, which comes from an Austrailian midwife's website. A flat surface doesn't necessitate cutting the cord--you can bring the flat surface to the baby.

I'm currious as to if any of the 3 deaths that the researchers deemed "preventable homebirth deaths" were attended by "independent" midwives as opposed to those belonging to the government system? It says that births from both types were included.

ETA: Amber, you posted while I was typing my reply...ROFL at "she who shall not be named"

Chimmy's picture
Joined: 08/03/01
Posts: 2775

lol that's what she's called on a lot of sites & FB groups. It's the extremism that gets to me - she's so dramatic Lol

boilermaker's picture
Joined: 08/21/02
Posts: 1984

I thnk it is always good to look at data and have conversations. Though, we have to admit that Dr. Screwball is far from unbiased....and honestly, it is hard for my to be unbiased bc I want to validate the choices I've made w homebirths.

That said....I attended an neonatal resus class last fall. It was nearly 10 hours long and I had to pass an exam at the end to get my certification. I learned so much in that class, and was pleased with my midwives credentials and care. I think I would make certain that my MW was up to date on her certifications.

I also think this sample size is pretty small and I'd want more information about the MW's providing care. And I think you have to be very careful about who you select to attend a homebirth. Not something I want to just pick out of the yellow pages....kwim?

Also, about babies being blue at birth as they mentioned in so many of those comments. I have photos of each of my babies at birth-- and they were each pretty darn blue. Two at a hospital and two at home, and none of them required any sort of resus. But I think it is pretty normal to start out blue-- and that this isn't a homebirth phenomenon as the blog commenters want some to believe....

Pics....

This is Taya and we cut her cord immediately....

Super blue foot

Still pretty blue when I held her

And Callie was so blue. Another hospital birth.


And Miles at home. Blue.

And Lexi. Blue.

They all quickly pinked up-- these people who are so worried about slightly blue babies at birth are over-reacting, I think. It is a huge transition to the world, give the baby a minute, ya know?

Mom2ThreeKiddos's picture
Joined: 09/15/09
Posts: 1380

Well being a math major and having taken 2 classes in statistics I can tell you that the sample size is way to small to be drawing the conclusions that they did. We don't know how the participants were selected etc. It didn't say the sample size on the hospital births that I saw.

MrsMangoBabe's picture
Joined: 04/09/07
Posts: 2276

"Mom2ThreeKiddos" wrote:

Well being a math major and having taken 2 classes in statistics I can tell you that the sample size is way to small to be drawing the conclusions that they did. We don't know how the participants were selected etc. It didn't say the sample size on the hospital births that I saw.

if you look at the second table, the "hypoxic deaths" one it gives the sample size as n=75,650 for the hospital births--a lot more than 650...

kridda_88's picture
Joined: 01/28/08
Posts: 1798

Didn't read the article but have to comment about Audra's blue baby's and the comments she mentioned from the article. Both of my baby's were hospital births and were blue as well, but if the commenter's used any horse sense they would realize that pushing a baby through a birth canal squishes their lungs and makes it so they cant expand fully, there for causing the baby to be blue in color at first.

I also wanted to say, did you notice how less blue the home birth baby's were in Audra's photos? Wink

Mom2ThreeKiddos's picture
Joined: 09/15/09
Posts: 1380

"MrsMangoBabe" wrote:

if you look at the second table, the "hypoxic deaths" one it gives the sample size as n=75,650 for the hospital births--a lot more than 650...

LOL I am sorry but that study is laughable. LOL You can't compare a sampling of over 75K people to a group of 650 people.

Chimmy's picture
Joined: 08/03/01
Posts: 2775

Right. But oohhh they are! I probably shouldn't of even taken the bate & jumped into this discussion - it's rediculous what some of them choose to believe.

heatherliz2002's picture
Joined: 02/02/08
Posts: 2273

First of all, I'm sorry that this friend of the family is giving you such a hard time instead of supporting your decision... or even minding their own business!

The part of the article that jumps out at me as truly ridiculous is where she says that the MANA data "almost certainly obtained a similar (or possibly far worse) result" but she hasn't actually SEEN the results... she has no idea what they are!

Chimmy's picture
Joined: 08/03/01
Posts: 2775

Good blog in reply to Amy - it's old. 2009 but still applies, ironically. It seems Dr. Amy hasn't fallen far from her tree.

http://desifeminists.wordpress.com/2009/12/04/refining-my-thoughts-on-childbirth/

And another I enjoyed reading.

http://www.theunnecesarean.com/blog/2009/6/9/amy-tuteur-and-i-would-probably-agree-that-crunchy-mama-is-a.html'

Love this part:

It appears that, at some point, Amy must have tired of trying to debate birth-related issues with people that she considered unworthy and unqualified and moved onto catering to her readers’ desire to play “Mommy Wars”. For awhile, the caricatures of “natural” or “homebirth” types were somewhat lost on me. While I sort of enjoyed the satire and subversive humor, I wasn’t totally getting it. The majority of the people I have met in the last few years gave birth with midwives. Most are very environmentally conscious. I stand in awe of their compost piles. They taught me the ins and outs of cloth diapering. They are mostly women who feel that normalcy in birth, breastfeeding, maternity leave and the environment are worth fighting for, but not worth fighting EACH OTHER for. The pod of women that I hang out with believes that women need to make the decisions that feel right to them. Giving birth at home after a previous cesarean? Love you, here’s a casserole for your freezer, want me to watch your three year old? Going for in an elective repeat cesarean? Love you, here’s a casserole for your freezer, want me to watch your three year old?

While watching people blindly shift all personal responsibility to any health care practitioner makes my heart nervously skip a beat, I don’t believe that there are blind decisions. For awhile, I couldn’t understand why someone wouldn’t be at least a little skeptical about threats of dead or permanently injured babies in the absence of any risk factors. Now, after months of having listened and discussed and kept an open mind, I don’t consider it to be any of my business. If you tell me a cesarean saved your baby or your life, I say, “Thank God!” Love you, here’s a casserole for your freezer, want me to watch your three year old?

MrsMangoBabe's picture
Joined: 04/09/07
Posts: 2276

I really like the desifeminists post--I have reached many of the same conclustions myself.

Amber--the results of the study from BC are really good. I have been looking at the College of Midwives of British Columbia website and I like how midwifery is a 4-year program there that provides experience in hospital and out-of-hospital settings--midwifery education programs in the U.S. are so limiting because they provide either hospital or out-of-hospital experience, and almost never both. I love the idea of the same provider being able to attend women either in the hospital or out of the hospital. I also noticed that midwives in BC practice independently from physicans which I love--in a lot of situations here, the "physican back-up" is a lot more like "physican oversight."

mandora's picture
Joined: 07/16/07
Posts: 262

Chimmy, I LOVE the quoted bit up there. Fabulous. As for the original article, anyone with any sort of research sense knows you can't compare those two samples/sample sizes and expect to get any meaningful results.

What gets me with this whole debate is why it's any of anyone else's business how/where a woman chooses to give birth. Her body, her family, her choice. Simple.

And for the record, my hospital baby was bright blue... homebirth babe, only his hands and feet. And he pinked up quicker. Wink

Mom2ThreeKiddos's picture
Joined: 09/15/09
Posts: 1380

This part from the defemisit sums it up for me:

Now of course to understand such nuances you have to understand research methodology, but Dr. Amy is not a researcher. Her agenda as an OB is to protect her trade and outlaw options like home birth that would give legitimacy to midwives.

And I liked this too:

Her absurd articles made me realize one thing, that sometimes because of the frustrations of dealing with the American OB system, feminist activists exaggerate their claims a bit. Jennifer Block acknowledged how the benefits of breast feeding is sometimes promoted based on fear or promise of a super-baby, rather than the simple acknowledgment that breast milk is best for baby and mom, do it if you can. I’ve held very strong opinions on how unnecessary Cesareans have 3x the risk of maternal mortality than vaginal births and additional risks to the baby, and also how C-section rates over 15% for a country is correlated with increased maternal mortality as determined by WHO. But the thing is, the absolute risks of dying from C-sections in a developed country is pretty low, so my opinions about doing a natural birth in order to avoid that have seemed as extreme as Dr. Amy’s claims about home births and water births.

Great articles Chimmy!

Chimmy's picture
Joined: 08/03/01
Posts: 2775

Brittany ~ I really like that quote too. I do wish midwives in the states were given more freedom to work, it would be to everyones benefit. Something worth fighting for that's for sure.

Manda ~ I agree. All of my babies have been blue as well & pinked right up, except for my daughter who was stubborn & wouldn't breath for awhile lol

I ended up removing said person from my facebook. She just got narky & mean & then both her & her husband got all passive aggressive on my facebook as well as my husbands. It's just so silly. Not interested in school yard games.

Joined: 11/23/07
Posts: 870

i love it when people post articles that i feel more enriched for reading! Amy's doesnt count, like i said, she's clearly writing stereo instructions in an effort to SOUND smarter than everyone else, but the other articles are pure gold!

but i did skim down and read all the crunchy mama quotes.... thats an entertaining field day!

and for my personal conscience- i never feel guilty snuggling my daughter while she's sleeping in my bed, despite what mainstream people seem to think is the way to raise a child. i do feel guilty letting her scream, trapped in a crib, alone in a dark room "because she needs to learn to sleep by herself"

any and all choices have consequences and as long as a person can live with what they chose than i can't argue with it- i don't walk in their shoes.

and i swear to GOD that if any people i know ask again if i'm planning a c-section or ready for induction i will cram my laptop up their.... Smile

Mom2ThreeKiddos's picture
Joined: 09/15/09
Posts: 1380

"Chimmy" wrote:

Brittany ~ I really like that quote too. I do wish midwives in the states were given more freedom to work, it would be to everyones benefit. Something worth fighting for that's for sure.

Manda ~ I agree. All of my babies have been blue as well & pinked right up, except for my daughter who was stubborn & wouldn't breath for awhile lol

I ended up removing said person from my facebook. She just got narky & mean & then both her & her husband got all passive aggressive on my facebook as well as my husbands. It's just so silly. Not interested in school yard games.

Sounds like the right thing to me. I mean they are adults right. LOL

Chimmy's picture
Joined: 08/03/01
Posts: 2775

I thought they were. I guess it was more important for them to be right than to accept that we simply have different opinions. *shrugs* Ah well.

Amber_daisy's picture
Joined: 10/17/06
Posts: 567

"MrsMangoBabe" wrote:

I really like the desifeminists post--I have reached many of the same conclustions myself.

Amber--the results of the study from BC are really good. I have been looking at the College of Midwives of British Columbia website and I like how midwifery is a 4-year program there that provides experience in hospital and out-of-hospital settings--midwifery education programs in the U.S. are so limiting because they provide either hospital or out-of-hospital experience, and almost never both. I love the idea of the same provider being able to attend women either in the hospital or out of the hospital. I also noticed that midwives in BC practice independently from physicans which I love--in a lot of situations here, the "physican back-up" is a lot more like "physican oversight."

I love that study. I think it was fantastic in terms of its ability to compare home birth to hospital birth without a ton of confounding factors.

I personally think that this is what we should be aiming for everywhere. Midwives who are self-regulated and work independently, but also work collaboratively with physicians when needed. I think that 4 year degree programs are fantastic as well. A lot of the problems surrounding home birth in the US (and here in NL, since midwifery is not yet legalized) is that a lot is happening underground, and there's so much mistrust.

mandora's picture
Joined: 07/16/07
Posts: 262

"gypsy86" wrote:

and for my personal conscience- i never feel guilty snuggling my daughter while she's sleeping in my bed, despite what mainstream people seem to think is the way to raise a child. i do feel guilty letting her scream, trapped in a crib, alone in a dark room "because she needs to learn to sleep by herself"

any and all choices have consequences and as long as a person can live with what they chose than i can't argue with it- i don't walk in their shoes.

This, exactly.

Amber_daisy's picture
Joined: 10/17/06
Posts: 567
Emergency hospital bag?!

NM...posted in wrong spot

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