10 lessons learned from this election

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Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 4100
10 lessons learned from this election

1. America is diverse. Deal with it.
2. Don't attempt illegal nonsense to subvert the democracy.
3. The electorate did not fall off a turnip truck.
4. Pandering to the "base" is perilous. The Republican Party has a tea party problem because it has allowed itself to.
5. "Trust me" doesn't get it done.
6. If you must pander, do not alienate large chunks of voters in the process. The Republican Party should not have the gender gap and the "race gap" that it has.
7. The system self-corrects.
8. "We've got to fix that." As an aside, President Obama commented Tuesday night on the flaws in our electoral process that produce the enormous lines, disenfranchisement and disillusionment about our democracy. It's not an aside, it's vital.
9. Retail politics still matters.
10. Nate Silver is a freaking genius.

Explanations & elaborations in the article here:
Ten hard lessons from Tuesday | Politics Blog | an SFGate.com blog

Do you agree or disagree?

I agree with every single one of them. I know several self-proclaimed life-long Republicans IRL who tell me they voted for Obama because *this* Republican Party is an embarassingly messy combination of morality policing and lack of transparency. They want less government but they wanted to know exactly which parts Romney would cut, and they want the government to stay out of everyone's bedrooms which the GOP seems to think is its right. And the they recognized that the majority of small businesses won't have *any* business, even with all the tax breaks in the world, if they don't have customers with money in their pockets to pay for those services. It seems this election wasn't about the economy, after all, it was about everything else.

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6560

Where to go with this? I would like to ask you how did you feel 8 years ago when Bush won a second term? Would you have been pleased with the attitude "We won, deal with it?" I am sure there were some that had that attitude, but did you appreciate it? There is a ton of hurt and anger on the Republican side of the line right now. You have to remember almost 50% of the country did not vote for Obama and many of them felt passionate about how they were voting for. On my FB wall this morning there is a deep sense of mourning. IMO, it will take nothing short of a miracle to unite the country after such a hateful election.

Joined: 08/17/04
Posts: 2226

I guess I just roll with the punches on that Bonita. No, I wasn't excited GWB rec'd a 2nd term but I didn't "mourn" anything or put myself in a depression as I've seen on FB. I find that line of thinking and reaction to be overly dramatic.

GloriaInTX's picture
Joined: 07/29/08
Posts: 4116

I think this map says it all. People that live in these huge urban areas think they know what is best for everyone and the government should take care of you, and people in the rest of the country think people should take care of themselves.

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6560

I know many of you do not believe abortion is wrong, or that an unborn baby is a baby. Please pretend with me that you do believe that an unborn baby is a baby. The same as a child that is already born with the same rights as any other child. (I know many do not feel this way, but to get you to see the other side) Then pretend that the newly elected president was in support of slaughtering any child for any reason. Would you not mourn the election of said president? Would you not mourn the death of millions of children over the next 4 years? If the president did not share any of your values? If he fought for everything you felt was wrong? Did not fight for things you felt were vitally important?

As I said before, the country is very divided right now. It will take much to fix that. I do not believe if a candidate was far to the right won, and was open about wanting to ban all abortion for any reason, ban all same sex marriage, and on other conservative social issues, that the liberals on this board would not be deeply upset by the outcome of the election.

Rivergallery's picture
Joined: 05/23/03
Posts: 1301

10 things I learned on this election

1. Lots of people believe sucking the brains out of a baby is a choice a person can make for someone else.
2. Those making over 250 thousand a year are greedy bastards.
3. It is ok to be a Catholic and say you disagree with the tenants of your faith, but if a Mormon says that he won't legislate all his beliefs noone believes him.
4. We should let anyone into our country.
5. We should work for the government, not the government for us.
6. We need the government for everything, from food, to gas, to healthcare and schools.
7. We shouldn't care that we are working and the government is spending all our money on others that don't care to.
8. War is evil, but ok if you are Obama.
9. Republicans are evil because they spend too much on the election, even though they spent about 1/2- 1/4 of what the Dem nominee spent.
10. The government is the ONLY source of relief for those in need.

GloriaInTX's picture
Joined: 07/29/08
Posts: 4116

"Rivergallery" wrote:

2. Those making over 250 thousand a year are greedy bastards.

7. We shouldn't care that we are working and the government is spending all our money on others that don't care to.

2. Not only are they greedy bastards but they should be giving all their money to those in 7.

GloriaInTX's picture
Joined: 07/29/08
Posts: 4116

It looks like the financial markets have a lot of faith that Obama is going to fix things. I wonder how he is going to spin all those companies that he told not to send out layoff notices that are now going to have to do massive lay offs.

Post-Election Retreat: Dow Plummets Below 13K for First Time in 2 Months | Fox Business

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6560

I also wanted to point out that if you live in an area that went mostly blue, you might be slightly out of touch with how angry the rest of the country is.

mom3girls's picture
Joined: 01/09/07
Posts: 1535

"Spacers" wrote:

1. America is diverse. Deal with it.
2. Don't attempt illegal nonsense to subvert the democracy.
3. The electorate did not fall off a turnip truck.
4. Pandering to the "base" is perilous. The Republican Party has a tea party problem because it has allowed itself to.
5. "Trust me" doesn't get it done.
6. If you must pander, do not alienate large chunks of voters in the process. The Republican Party should not have the gender gap and the "race gap" that it has.
7. The system self-corrects.
8. "We've got to fix that." As an aside, President Obama commented Tuesday night on the flaws in our electoral process that produce the enormous lines, disenfranchisement and disillusionment about our democracy. It's not an aside, it's vital.
9. Retail politics still matters.
10. Nate Silver is a freaking genius.

Explanations & elaborations in the article here:
Ten hard lessons from Tuesday | Politics Blog | an SFGate.com blog

Do you agree or disagree?

I agree with every single one of them. I know several self-proclaimed life-long Republicans IRL who tell me they voted for Obama because *this* Republican Party is an embarassingly messy combination of morality policing and lack of transparency. They want less government but they wanted to know exactly which parts Romney would cut, and they want the government to stay out of everyone's bedrooms which the GOP seems to think is its right. And the they recognized that the majority of small businesses won't have *any* business, even with all the tax breaks in the world, if they don't have customers with money in their pockets to pay for those services. It seems this election wasn't about the economy, after all, it was about everything else.

I think this is the kind of arrogance that is the propelling force behind the divide in this country.

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6560

"mom3girls" wrote:

I think this is the kind of arrogance that is the propelling force behind the divide in this country.

I was thinking that it reminded me of Biden during the VP debate. It was not that he was being so rude, it was that he had the attitude that he was only there to govern the side he agreed with. That the wants and needs of the rest of the country do not matter.

Joined: 08/17/04
Posts: 2226

"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

I also wanted to point out that if you live in an area that went mostly blue, you might be slightly out of touch with how angry the rest of the country is.

Do you think there are no hard core Republicans here? I can assure you there are. I'm very aware of how "angry" people are. I think it's just time to collect ourselves and get back to business instead of ranting and raving about what happened.

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6560

"Jessica80" wrote:

Do you think there are no hard core Republicans here? I can assure you there are. I'm very aware of how "angry" people are. I think it's just time to collect ourselves and get back to business instead of ranting and raving about what happened.

We were asked what we thought of the 10 things in the OP. Now you know what we think of the 10 things in the OP.

GloriaInTX's picture
Joined: 07/29/08
Posts: 4116

"Jessica80" wrote:

Do you think there are no hard core Republicans here? I can assure you there are. I'm very aware of how "angry" people are. I think it's just time to collect ourselves and get back to business instead of ranting and raving about what happened.

Sorry you picked the wrong President if you expect getting back to business is going to solve anything. We are just going back to the same deadlock that we have been in, and Obama is too arrogant to try to work together to resolve anything or do anything about it. So I guess we will get back to the business of NO budget and going off the financial cliff.

Joined: 08/17/04
Posts: 2226

Gloria~I meant our everyday business. Our personal business.

smsturner's picture
Joined: 05/11/09
Posts: 1303

Wow. I feel the sour grapes on this one. lol I'm surprised at how angry people are... I still just don't see what is so bad about him. Even if i love someone, i'm not blind to the faults of them... And i just don't see the downsides everyone is upset about.

"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

Where to go with this? I would like to ask you how did you feel 8 years ago when Bush won a second term? Would you have been pleased with the attitude "We won, deal with it?" I am sure there were some that had that attitude, but did you appreciate it? There is a ton of hurt and anger on the Republican side of the line right now. You have to remember almost 50% of the country did not vote for Obama and many of them felt passionate about how they were voting for. On my FB wall this morning there is a deep sense of mourning. IMO, it will take nothing short of a miracle to unite the country after such a hateful election.

No one said that. It said 'america is diverse, deal with it'. That is def not the same.

"GloriaInTX" wrote:

I think this map says it all. People that live in these huge urban areas think they know what is best for everyone and the government should take care of you, and people in the rest of the country think people should take care of themselves.

This really doesn't make any sense at all. They don't think they 'know what's best for everyone'. There are just more people there. Should these people in cities be worth half a vote because they don't take up enough land mass?? That's just silly. The greater amount of people should decide what way to move. And that's what happened here.

ETA: I am just totally disgusted with the idea that anyone feels it's alright to call other women murderers, or say they 'suck their baby's brains out' simply because of a different way of looking at things. Do you hate anyone that could have had to make this choice? If your sister had to do it (or wanted to) would you want her arrested and tell her she is a murdering baby-brain sucking monster? I REALLY REALLY liked the rule on the old abortion debate board that we would refrain from calling it murder. What if one of the women here had to make such a hard choice? Maybe it wasn't an easy choice, but one between her life or the fetus'? Talk about a way to chase off potential debaters. I wouldn't hang out where someone kept calling me a brainsucking murderer! (PS. I KNOW a bunch of you will puff up at this. but i do have a point. we don't let people here insult others, why is ok to call people this if we don't even know if one of these women is here?)

Joined: 05/23/12
Posts: 680

Re your number 2, I can't believe you feel this way about people. You really think this about all people making more than 250K? I am kind of shocked by some items on your list.

or maybe I can't understand your tone?

"Rivergallery" wrote:

10 things I learned on this election

1. Lots of people believe sucking the brains out of a baby is a choice a person can make for someone else.
2. Those making over 250 thousand a year are greedy bastards.
3. It is ok to be a Catholic and say you disagree with the tenants of your faith, but if a Mormon says that he won't legislate all his beliefs noone believes him.
4. We should let anyone into our country.
5. We should work for the government, not the government for us.
6. We need the government for everything, from food, to gas, to healthcare and schools.
7. We shouldn't care that we are working and the government is spending all our money on others that don't care to.
8. War is evil, but ok if you are Obama.
9. Republicans are evil because they spend too much on the election, even though they spent about 1/2- 1/4 of what the Dem nominee spent.
10. The government is the ONLY source of relief for those in need.

"GloriaInTX" wrote:

2. Not only are they greedy bastards but they should be giving all their money to those in 7.
Alissa_Sal's picture
Joined: 06/29/06
Posts: 6427

myyams - I believe it is supposed to be sarcastic, as if to say that those of us who supported Obama believe those things. The whole list is a pretty gross distortion of what I believe, but I'm not going to bother debating it because I actually DO understand that Republicans are angry and sad today. I remember feeling that way in 2004 when Bush won. More than anything, I was just so confused and upset because I really thought that most people saw what I saw and felt the way I felt about the Bush administration, and here was our chance to change it and get our country on a better path. I cried like a baby when Bush won again; I just couldn't even believe it! So I think I do get the anger and sadness that Republicans are feeling today. I've been there, and it sucks.

I guess more than anything, I just wish we could stop thinking of each other like we're the freaking boogymen or something. I look at that list that Rivergallery posted, and I think "Jeez, if you really believe that's what I stand for, you must think I'm a seriously nasty peice of work." And I'm sure that Republicans have seen plenty of distortions of their own beliefs from liberals that make them feel the same way. I wish we could stop doing that to each other, and accept that we're all fairly decent human beings who just have different ideas about the role of government. I'm not the enemy. You're not the enemy. We're both good Americans that did our civic duty and got out there and voted.

Joined: 04/12/03
Posts: 1686

"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

I know many of you do not believe abortion is wrong, or that an unborn baby is a baby. Please pretend with me that you do believe that an unborn baby is a baby. The same as a child that is already born with the same rights as any other child. (I know many do not feel this way, but to get you to see the other side) Then pretend that the newly elected president was in support of slaughtering any child for any reason. Would you not mourn the election of said president? Would you not mourn the death of millions of children over the next 4 years? If the president did not share any of your values? If he fought for everything you felt was wrong? Did not fight for things you felt were vitally important?

As I said before, the country is very divided right now. It will take much to fix that. I do not believe if a candidate was far to the right won, and was open about wanting to ban all abortion for any reason, ban all same sex marriage, and on other conservative social issues, that the liberals on this board would not be deeply upset by the outcome of the election.

The abortion analogy is quite a stretch. The SCOTUS ruling was in 1973. Between 1973 - 2003 there were 330 anti-abortion proposals. To think Romney had the power to get another amendment passed when there have been 7 prior presents who haven't is...well I don't know.

But I'll play along.

Then pretend that the newly elected president was in support of slaughtering any child for any reason. Would you not mourn the election of said president? Would you not mourn the death of millions of children over the next 4 years?

You mean like those who mourned Bush's re-election because of all the deaths in "the war on terror"?

Joined: 04/12/03
Posts: 1686

"GloriaInTX" wrote:

I think this map says it all. People that live in these huge urban areas think they know what is best for everyone and the government should take care of you, and people in the rest of the country think people should take care of themselves.

The same is true for the "red" areas. Based on your map, why didn't Romney win? And why did MO, IN, and WV elect democrats for senate?

wlillie's picture
Joined: 09/17/07
Posts: 1796

I was wondering what form the trashy gloating was going to take. Alissa is right.

smsturner's picture
Joined: 05/11/09
Posts: 1303

"Alissa_Sal" wrote:

I guess more than anything, I just wish we could stop thinking of each other like we're the freaking boogymen or something. I look at that list that Rivergallery posted, and I think "Jeez, if you really believe that's what I stand for, you must think I'm a seriously nasty peice of work." And I'm sure that Republicans have seen plenty of distortions of their own beliefs from liberals that make them feel the same way. I wish we could stop doing that to each other, and accept that we're all fairly decent human beings who just have different ideas about the role of government. I'm not the enemy. You're not the enemy. We're both good Americans that did our civic duty and got out there and voted.

I totally agree with this. I hate that people think i'm so evil. I don't understand the far right, and I don't agree with them, but I definitely don't think they are bad people or that they are evil. Hell, every other person on either side of my extended family, and some of tom's are super conservative. I have a bit of fun arguing with them. But I still love them, and can see some of their points without agreeing. And i certainly don't believe anyone is a murdering baby-brain sucker!

Or, in the words of Jon Stewart:

Wink

b525's picture
Joined: 06/06/07
Posts: 298

"Spacers" wrote:

1. America is diverse. Deal with it.
2. Don't attempt illegal nonsense to subvert the democracy.
3. The electorate did not fall off a turnip truck.
4. Pandering to the "base" is perilous. The Republican Party has a tea party problem because it has allowed itself to.
5. "Trust me" doesn't get it done.
6. If you must pander, do not alienate large chunks of voters in the process. The Republican Party should not have the gender gap and the "race gap" that it has.
7. The system self-corrects.
8. "We've got to fix that." As an aside, President Obama commented Tuesday night on the flaws in our electoral process that produce the enormous lines, disenfranchisement and disillusionment about our democracy. It's not an aside, it's vital.
9. Retail politics still matters.
10. Nate Silver is a freaking genius.

Alissa nailed it when she talked about gross distortions. The reaction she had to Rivergallery's list is quite similar to the reaction I had to this list.

1. Um, yeah, we know. Lots of us are cool with that. Gross generalization that Repubs are scared of differences.
2. Illegal nonsense. Right, 'cause we ALL love illegal nonsense and certainly the other party would not go there!
3. Don't actually know anyone who thinks that. And, if the "electorate" fell off the turnip truck, I guess that would include both sides, no?
4. Pandering to the base - the author knows that went both ways, right?

And so on, and so forth. It's just crap. Why do people think it's okay to act as if the "other" side is stupid? ARGH! There are lots of really good people on both sides, who just want the best for their country and for their families.

And, why can't we let people have a day or two to deal with disappointment instead of launching into opinions about how they need to get a grip, etc? Voting on the person who is in charge of your country, who sets the tone for what is accepted and "right" for millions of people, is a big deal...

Joined: 08/17/04
Posts: 2226

I'm fine with anger, disappointment, sadness. I'm not okay with getting FB messages about how "f'ing dumb people in America are" a and "I know you voted for X.....so stupid"

That's when you need to get a grip.

Saying, I'm upset with how the US voted last night and angry that my candidate lost is completely different.

Alissa_Sal's picture
Joined: 06/29/06
Posts: 6427

I would like to propose that we put an (unofficial) moratorium on political debates to let everybody cool down. I know there are a lot of disappointed people right now, and I would like to respect that and give them a little room before we plunge right back into it.

I'm not saying this as a mod, it's not like I'll lock any political threads that get started in the next several days, I'm just saying it as a fellow member of the board. I think we should take a break from the politics for a couple of days.

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6560

"b525" wrote:

The reaction she had to Rivergallery's list is quite similar to the reaction I had to this list.

Now that I have had several hours to cool off, I apologise for how upset I got earlier. I would say this is an accurate picture of what happened. The posting of this list the day after the election while emotions were still raw did give a similar reaction to Rivergallery's list.

As to the clams about abortion - I do not think Romney would have banned abortion, but I hope he would not ask tax payers to pay for it like Obama wants to.

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6560

"Alissa_Sal" wrote:

I would like to propose that we put an (unofficial) moratorium on political debates to let everybody cool down. I know there are a lot of disappointed people right now, and I would like to respect that and give them a little room before we plunge right back into it.

I'm not saying this as a mod, it's not like I'll lock any political threads that get started in the next several days, I'm just saying it as a fellow member of the board. I think we should take a break from the politics for a couple of days.

We must have posted at the same time. I did not see this until after I posted.

Rivergallery's picture
Joined: 05/23/03
Posts: 1301

"smsturner" wrote:

Wow. I feel the sour grapes on this one. lol I'm surprised at how angry people are... I still just don't see what is so bad about him. Even if i love someone, i'm not blind to the faults of them... And i just don't see the downsides everyone is upset about.

No one said that. It said 'america is diverse, deal with it'. That is def not the same.

This really doesn't make any sense at all. They don't think they 'know what's best for everyone'. There are just more people there. Should these people in cities be worth half a vote because they don't take up enough land mass?? That's just silly. The greater amount of people should decide what way to move. And that's what happened here.

ETA: I am just totally disgusted with the idea that anyone feels it's alright to call other women murderers, or say they 'suck their baby's brains out' simply because of a different way of looking at things. Do you hate anyone that could have had to make this choice? If your sister had to do it (or wanted to) would you want her arrested and tell her she is a murdering baby-brain sucking monster? I REALLY REALLY liked the rule on the old abortion debate board that we would refrain from calling it murder. What if one of the women here had to make such a hard choice? Maybe it wasn't an easy choice, but one between her life or the fetus'? Talk about a way to chase off potential debaters. I wouldn't hang out where someone kept calling me a brainsucking murderer! (PS. I KNOW a bunch of you will puff up at this. but i do have a point. we don't let people here insult others, why is ok to call people this if we don't even know if one of these women is here?)

Partial birth abortion IS sucking a baby's brains out.

Rivergallery's picture
Joined: 05/23/03
Posts: 1301

"ethanwinfield" wrote:

The abortion analogy is quite a stretch. The SCOTUS ruling was in 1973. Between 1973 - 2003 there were 330 anti-abortion proposals. To think Romney had the power to get another amendment passed when there have been 7 prior presents who haven't is...well I don't know.

But I'll play along.

You mean like those who mourned Bush's re-election because of all the deaths in "the war on terror"?

You do realize Obama has killed more people with drones than Bush did.. right?

Rivergallery's picture
Joined: 05/23/03
Posts: 1301

"b525" wrote:

Alissa nailed it when she talked about gross distortions. The reaction she had to Rivergallery's list is quite similar to the reaction I had to this list.

1. Um, yeah, we know. Lots of us are cool with that. Gross generalization that Repubs are scared of differences.
2. Illegal nonsense. Right, 'cause we ALL love illegal nonsense and certainly the other party would not go there!
3. Don't actually know anyone who thinks that. And, if the "electorate" fell off the turnip truck, I guess that would include both sides, no?
4. Pandering to the base - the author knows that went both ways, right?

And so on, and so forth. It's just crap. Why do people think it's okay to act as if the "other" side is stupid? ARGH! There are lots of really good people on both sides, who just want the best for their country and for their families.

And, why can't we let people have a day or two to deal with disappointment instead of launching into opinions about how they need to get a grip, etc? Voting on the person who is in charge of your country, who sets the tone for what is accepted and "right" for millions of people, is a big deal...

ty exactly why I posted it!

Joined: 05/23/12
Posts: 680

I just can't believe how hot emotions are running.

Joined: 04/12/03
Posts: 1686

"Rivergallery" wrote:

You do realize Obama has killed more people with drones than Bush did.. right?

You do realize people "mourned" the re-election of Bush before Obama was elected, right?

GloriaInTX's picture
Joined: 07/29/08
Posts: 4116
Alissa_Sal's picture
Joined: 06/29/06
Posts: 6427

"GloriaInTX" wrote:

And so it begins.....

Vegas Employer: Obama Won, So I Fired 22 Employees ? CBS Las Vegas

That's a dumb reason to fire people. Absolutely nothing has changed from November 5th to today. I would think that a smarter move would be to wait until something actually changes, you get a chance to analyze how those changes are projected to impact your business, and then act accordingly. He admits that he's being "proactive." I think "knee jerk reaction" would be a better description.

I also don't get what his point was about saying that most of his employees are Hispanic. Is he saying that because they're Hispanic they probably voted for Obama so they forced his hand or something? Just not sure where he was going with that whole thing.

KimPossible's picture
Joined: 05/24/06
Posts: 3312

"GloriaInTX" wrote:

And so it begins.....

Vegas Employer: Obama Won, So I Fired 22 Employees ? CBS Las Vegas

Gee wonder why he wanted to remain anonymous. Maybe its because he's an ***. This man is using his employees to make a statement under the guise of "I have to be proactive because at some point down the road its going to be too expensive". Gross.

Calling a radio station, firing his employees the day after an election. At this point in time, if he could have paid his employees the day before the election, he could have the day after. It's crazy to believe this "I need to be proactive" BS. This guy has turned his employees livelihoods into a soapbox. Disgusting.

GloriaInTX's picture
Joined: 07/29/08
Posts: 4116

"Alissa_Sal" wrote:

That's a dumb reason to fire people. Absolutely nothing has changed from November 5th to today. I would think that a smarter move would be to wait until something actually changes, you get a chance to analyze how those changes are projected to impact your business, and then act accordingly. He admits that he's being "proactive." I think "knee jerk reaction" would be a better description.

I also don't get what his point was about saying that most of his employees are Hispanic. Is he saying that because they're Hispanic they probably voted for Obama so they forced his hand or something? Just not sure where he was going with that whole thing.

You really think people haven't had time to evaluate what Obamacare is going to cost their business? Why do you think so many got waivers?

Alissa_Sal's picture
Joined: 06/29/06
Posts: 6427

"GloriaInTX" wrote:

You really think people haven't had time to evaluate what Obamacare is going to cost their business? Why do you think so many got waivers?

I don't buy the Obamacare excuse. As Kim said, if he could afford to pay his employees on Monday, he could afford to pay them today. Also, if it were entirely based on Obamacare, it would have been very silly to wait until Romney was elected (if he had been) because none of us had any clue what Romney was actually going to do. I know he vowed to "repeal Obamacare from day one" but there are two issues to that. First of all, how would he have done that? Dems still hold the Senate so it would be very difficult for him to repeal it, even if he had won. Second of all, I think that even if he repealed it, he would have to replace it with something, and not knowing any details about what that something might be and how that something will be projected to impact his business, it's kind of a silly bet to assume that it would automatically be better for his business.

I agree with Kim, I think this guy is using his employee's livlihood as his personal soapbox, and I think it's gross.

GloriaInTX's picture
Joined: 07/29/08
Posts: 4116

"Alissa_Sal" wrote:

I don't buy the Obamacare excuse. As Kim said, if he could afford to pay his employees on Monday, he could afford to pay them today. Also, if it were entirely based on Obamacare, it would have been very silly to wait until Romney was elected (if he had been) because none of us had any clue what Romney was actually going to do. I know he vowed to "repeal Obamacare from day one" but there are two issues to that. First of all, how would he have done that? Dems still hold the Senate so it would be very difficult for him to repeal it, even if he had won. Second of all, I think that even if he repealed it, he would have to replace it with something, and not knowing any details about what that something might be and how that something will be projected to impact his business, it's kind of a silly bet to assume that it would automatically be better for his business.

I agree with Kim, I think this guy is using his employee's livlihood as his personal soapbox, and I think it's gross.

He would have had hope with Romney... now he knows for sure Obamacare will be put in place and he knows what it will cost him. What is he supposed to wait until he can't make payroll to lay people off? Most healthcare coverage has to be paid in advance, so he has to put aside enough to pay for the new coverage he is required to have. I guarantee you this won't be the first layoff there will be many more to come. Why do you think the stock market tanked?

Alissa_Sal's picture
Joined: 06/29/06
Posts: 6427

"Hope" is a very nebulous thing to make business decisions on. As someone who studies the actual financial impact of reg changes to businesses (using hard numbers), I disapprove. Wink

KimPossible's picture
Joined: 05/24/06
Posts: 3312

Gloria, you want to believe he had to do this at this time because it supports your feelings on Obama.
I don't want to believe he had to do this at this time because it supports my feelings that he is simply trying to set an example and nothing more.

Neither of us actually know because we don't have his books.

But A)I'd like to know how he knows exactly how much this is going to cost him
B)Find it rather suspicious that he would call a radio station with this story...plus the way he was wording it according to the article, the way he tried to sway his employees vote. The whole thing reeks of a man on a mission.

He didn't need to fire anyone until he knew as fact what this would roughly cost him. Don't agree? Fine.

KimPossible's picture
Joined: 05/24/06
Posts: 3312

On a side note, but in conjunction with this thread, does anyone find it fascinating that part of Obama's success this campaign can be partially contributed to the changing face of our nation? Minorities, especially female minorities are in the numbers to out-vote the white vote.

We are at a point where the powerful white male is forced to think of others besides himself. I find that to be an amazing historical milestone.

GOP Asks: What Went Wrong for Romney? - Yahoo! News

Although the focus is already shifting to the looming fiscal cliff, there is no shortage of soul-searching, blame-gaming and hand-wringing on the part of Republicans after Mitt Romney's stinging defeat on Tuesday night -- and don't expect it to end anytime soon.
"This race wasn't a problem of candidate, it was a problem of fit," one smart GOP strategist told The Note. "The GOP no longer fits the modern electorate. We have fundamental issues with Latinos, young voters and women."
Another keen Republican political observer, J. Hogan Gidley, who was communications director for Rick Santorum's presidential bid, did not mince words with ABC's Russell Goldman.
"The Republican Party hasn't done a great job, and should be ashamed of itself, for not going after all Americans," Gidley said. "We can't take any one group for granted and need to look for ways to appeal to black and Latino voters."

wlillie's picture
Joined: 09/17/07
Posts: 1796

Do you guys not know how much your insurance is going to cost you? Exactly why do you think this guy didn't have hard numbers to base his decision on? Seriously, that is my biggest issue with people; wait and see how this works out instead of trying to plan for it in advance. EVERYONE should be pro-active. If he knows that he won't be able to make it with his current employee load because that stupid law isn't going to be overturned, it would be very very irresponsible to wait to cut them until he couldn't afford them anymore. Hopefully the cuts will mean that his other employees won't lose their jobs. I will *NEVER* understand why anyone would want the federal government involved in their healthcare. One program. That's all I'm asking for. One program the federal government has run efficiently OR effectively.....doesn't even have to be both.

eta-It shouldn't matter what your skin color is when it comes to the issues. Why does everything always have to be about race? Shouldn't they have the same wants and needs as white people?

boilermaker's picture
Joined: 08/21/02
Posts: 1984

We have our open enrollment happening right now and our healthcare costs have not gone up. Anthem BCBS. This is the second year in a row that we've not seen an increase.

Programs that the federal govt has done well?
Interstate highway system
Higher education/land-grant institutions established by the Morrill Act
NIH
NOAA
NREL
FAA

The federal government has made investments where others will not.

I'm actually optimistic that Obamacare will help the economy. I use my own family as an example. My dh and I have always wanted to start our own business. Until now, that hasn't been an option bc the only way we can get healthcare coverage for him is through employee sponsored plans. We have may more options under the new healthcare bill.

I also think we ARE providing subsidized healthcare to folks now-- but we do it by ambulance and ER, the two MOST expensive ways to deliver healthcare. We spend more per capita than other countries with much poorer outcomes. Why is that? I don't think the plan is perfect, but do feel it is important.

I also think it is an outrage that the life expectancy for a person in poverty is 10-14 years LESS than a person not in poverty. I guess you could say I'm pro-life in that regard.

ClairesMommy's picture
Joined: 08/15/06
Posts: 2299

Lillie, or someone else, what will the estimated health care costs be under Obamacare? I admit to being too lazy to go back and look for the answer somewhere in the posts!

mom3girls's picture
Joined: 01/09/07
Posts: 1535

My FIL and uncle have both been doing the math for months on what Obamacare will cost them. My FIL thinks he can continue without laying anyone off but will have to do away with the Christmas bonus he gave them and possibly the # of vacation days. My uncle will be laying off 3 people, which he will have to do in order to be able to afford to keep his other employees without going under. They both have been running successful small businesses for over 30 years so I trust that they know what is necessary to continue with that.
I think that not acknowledging that Obamacare and increased taxes on small businesses will hurt them is sticking your head in the sand.

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6560

Personally I can say since Obamacare has passed, our health insurance has gone up $200/month. You can blame that on whatever you want, but they told DH is was a direct result of Obamacare. Nothing in this world is free. Everyone under the age of 26 being on their parents, free BC, the insurance companies are not going to just absorb those costs. Whether or not you think it is a justified expense or not, costs are going to go up and they are going to go up a lot unless your employer is willing to absorb the cost. If your employer absorbs the cost, they will just have to have less employees.

I do not know about anyone else, but $200 a month extra is a lot to us.

Alissa_Sal's picture
Joined: 06/29/06
Posts: 6427

We are having open enrollment for healthcare right now too. My healthcare costs have gone up in one area only, and that has nothing to do with Obamacare. In addition to partially (but certainly not completely) paying for my insurance premiums, my company also puts a certain amount of money into my HSA every year. They have had this program in place for several years now, and every year until this year, I have gotten $1200 in my HSA. This year I got $800, so I suppose you can say my health care costs went up $400 a year. However, this has nothing to do with Obamacare, because the reason that they are putting less money in my HSA account this year is because I crossed a salary cap this year. In other words, they will only fund $1200 to people who make less than X in annual salary each year. Once you hit X, they knock it down to $800. Once you hit Y, they knock it down again. And so on. I made over X this year for the first time, so I got bumped down on my HSA account. However, that has nothing to do with Obamacare, since these policies have been in place ever since they adopted the HSA program (I think in 2008?) And obviously, what I lost in health care benefits I more than gained in salary, so I'm not complaining too hard.

Joined: 05/23/12
Posts: 680

In my experience, health insurance often increases. I remember when I worked, we got a govt raise and at the same time our health care went up (more than our raise).

However, the way the healthcare itself is going is not good. People haven't realized it yet. Even I am happy to have a special option for insurance for my mom that used to not exist, but in the long run I know that we are running ourselves down into the ground.

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6560

"myyams" wrote:

In my experience, health insurance often increases. I remember when I worked, we got a govt raise and at the same time our health care went up (more than our raise).

$100 per month two years in a row is more than a little. If you do not except that prices are going up, what do you think is paying for the extra benefits?

Joined: 04/12/03
Posts: 1686

I have check stubs dating back to 2000. My insurance has gone up consistently by 15 - 20% every year. I don't understand how it can be blamed on Clinton (2000 - 2001), Bush (2001 - 2009), or Obama (2009 - current). But I guess it's easier to blame Obama care than actually look at how much your (general) health care cost over the past 15 years or so.

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 4100

"ethanwinfield" wrote:

I have check stubs dating back to 2000. My insurance has gone up consistently by 15 - 20% every year. I don't understand how it can be blamed on Clinton (2000 - 2001), Bush (2001 - 2009), or Obama (2009 - current). But I guess it's easier to blame Obama care than actually look at how much your (general) health care cost over the past 15 years or so.

I do agree with this to a certain extent. I've researched historical health care cost escalation as part of my job. Nationwide, the per capita cost of health insurance has increased at a pretty consistent rate for the last two decades. From 2000-2010 it was 72%; admittedly, there were a couple of years of higher increases in this time period, but the other years smooth the total. And about 35% of those cost increases are due to basic price escalation, i.e. everything costs more now, you'd need $1344 to buy now what you could buy for $1000 in 2000. From 1990-2000 the overall increase was 71% increase, and from 1980-1990, the increase was 157%. And the health care cost increases from 2010 to 2012 have been between 4%-6% overall, nationwide. Why are some people seeing a higher increase? Because their employer is shifting costs to the employee, or because they have an individual plan in which their insurance cost more closely matches their actual health care expense, and because people have generally been demanding more diagnostic tests and brand-name drugs than they have in the past. The cost of "routine" prenatal testing alone has more than tripled in the U.S. in the past decade and hasn't increased the odds of a healthy baby; we still more moms & babies dying than almost any other developed country.

"boilermaker" wrote:

We have our open enrollment happening right now and our healthcare costs have not gone up. Anthem BCBS. This is the second year in a row that we've not seen an increase.

Programs that the federal govt has done well?
Interstate highway system
Higher education/land-grant institutions established by the Morrill Act
NIH
NOAA
NREL
FAA

The federal government has made investments where others will not.

I'm actually optimistic that Obamacare will help the economy. I use my own family as an example. My dh and I have always wanted to start our own business. Until now, that hasn't been an option bc the only way we can get healthcare coverage for him is through employee sponsored plans. We have may more options under the new healthcare bill.

I also think we ARE providing subsidized healthcare to folks now-- but we do it by ambulance and ER, the two MOST expensive ways to deliver healthcare. We spend more per capita than other countries with much poorer outcomes. Why is that? I don't think the plan is perfect, but do feel it is important.

I also think it is an outrage that the life expectancy for a person in poverty is 10-14 years LESS than a person not in poverty. I guess you could say I'm pro-life in that regard.

ITA with absolutely everything Audra says here, including the part about exploring self-employment if health care coverage for my DH weren't an issue. And my health insurance also didn't go up last year and isn't going up next year, not my portion, nor my employer's. I'm on an HMO plan and I don't know if the PPO plan had increases or not. I lost my chiropractic care last year, and my generic drug coverage increased from $10 to $15, but my premiums and co-payments have remained the same.

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