4 Gallon Minimum Mandate?

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GloriaInTX's picture
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4 Gallon Minimum Mandate?

The Obama Administration is forcing ethanol mixed gas into the marketplace, and since this gas can cause real problems for small engines, the EPA's solution is to mandate that if you purchase gas at one of these stations you must buy at least 4 gallons of gas.

Should ethanol mixed gasoline be forced into the markeplace when it is know to cause problems?

Is this a good solution, especially when many motorcycles don't even hold 4 gallons of gas?

The latest mandate handed down from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is so ridiculous, even I was shocked. The EPA has now mandated how much gasoline you must buy at certain gas stations. Say hello to the Obama Administration?s four gallon minimum.

This unprecedented EPA overreach applies when filling up at a gas station that provides both E15 and E10, gasoline with 15 or 10 percent of ethanol, respectively, from the same hose.

At the insistence of the ethanol industry, the Obama Administration is pushing E15 into the marketplace, regardless of the serious concerns about the fuel?s impact on drivers. From its inception, E15 is a study in the consequences of government interference in the marketplace. The EPA?s decision to set a minimum purchase requirement is just the most recent example.

If this seems too far-fetched to be true, here is what the EPA recently wrote in a letter to the American Motorcyclist Association:

"EPA requires that retail stations that own or operate blender pumps either dispense E15 from a dedicated hose and nozzle if able or, in the case of E15 and E10 being dispensed from the same hose, require that at least four gallons of fuel be purchased to prevent vehicles and engines with smaller fuel tanks from being exposed to gasoline-ethanol blended fuels containing greater than 10 volume percent ethanol."

The EPA approved E15 for sale in the U.S. using a partial waiver, meaning it is only approved for some vehicles on the road? cars 2001 and later.

Most of our gasoline contains only 10 percent ethanol. Increasing the ethanol content will harm older vehicles and it is downright dangerous for small engines like those found in boats, lawnmowers, or motorcycles. E15 is like metal in a microwave for a small engine.

The Obama Administration?s attempt to solve the serious concern of misfueling is more government regulation. By requiring a minimum purchase of four gallons of E10 gas, the Administration hopes to dilute the amounts of E15 undoubtedly left in the shared hose and prevent the fuel from ruining small engines or endangering Americans using these devices.

Full blog article
EPA's four-gallon minimum mandate - The Hill's Congress Blog

EPA Letter to American Motorcyclist
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Libraries/Rights_Documents_Federal/EPAResponse_E15Misfueling.sflb.ashx

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Honestly I don't know much about fuel, like zero knowledge actually. I'm not sure if this ethanol is something different than I use in my mini van Smile

So, I'm trying to figure out if motorcycles can't use the same gas as I use in my van. I mean are they built to only use this special blend of fuel that's being regulated?

Next, I'm trying to figure out what was the reason for the blend in the first place.

Does anyone know right off? I'm trying to google my way through these two answers, but so far no real luck.

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"myyams" wrote:

Honestly I don't know much about fuel, like zero knowledge actually. I'm not sure if this ethanol is something different than I use in my mini van Smile

So, I'm trying to figure out if motorcycles can't use the same gas as I use in my van. I mean are they built to only use this special blend of fuel that's being regulated?

Next, I'm trying to figure out what was the reason for the blend in the first place.

Does anyone know right off? I'm trying to google my way through these two answers, but so far no real luck.

Here is another article with more information.

Ten Reasons To Care That E15 Ethanol Is On The Way To Your Gas Station - Forbes

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Here is another article with more information.

Ten Reasons To Care That E15 Ethanol Is On The Way To Your Gas Station - Forbes

I read through the article and quoted three passages. On one hand, the Energy and Security Act is requiring renewable energy so they are adding ethanol to the mix. Yet, in the other paragraphs, the author is saying that ethanol doesn't yield an net renewable fuel. I think I just don't understand fuel enough. From the quoted article I can't understand what the purpose of ethanol being mixed with gas. I think it's too high level fuel talk for me Smile

The Energy and Security Act requires that a certain amount of “renewable” fuel must be introduced into the market each year, an amount that will rise to 36 billion gallons in 2022. EPA regulations identify petroleum refiners and importers as “obligated” parties to bring this about. The only way to meet this arbitrary quota is to add more ethanol made from corn to the mix…an additional 7 billion gallons annually.

Judge Kavanaugh went on to say: “Before the E15 mandate, petroleum producers likely could not meet the requirement set by the statutory renewable fuel mandate. Now that EPA has allowed E15 onto the market, producers likely can meet the renewable fuel mandate-but they must produce E15 in order to do so…In the real world, does the petroleum industry have a realistic choice not to use E15 and still meet the statutory renewable mandate? The answer is no, and the intervenor Growth Energy’s claim to the contrary seems rooted in fantasy.”

Although ethanol has been touted as a “renewable” fuel, it is anything but that. It offers no net fuel-saving benefit whatsoever since it requires as much fuel to plant, fertilize, harvest and process the corn into grain alcohol as it produces.

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"myyams" wrote:

I read through the article and quoted three passages. On one hand, the Energy and Security Act is requiring renewable energy so they are adding ethanol to the mix. Yet, in the other paragraphs, the author is saying that ethanol doesn't yield an net renewable fuel. I think I just don't understand fuel enough. From the quoted article I can't understand what the purpose of ethanol being mixed with gas. I think it's too high level fuel talk for me Smile

Pretty much what they are saying is that they know its not going to help anything and in some cases will hurt more than help, but they are forcing the refineries to go through with it anyway to meet the EPA mandates.

The EPA is worthless.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Pretty much what they are saying is that they know its not going to help anything and in some cases will hurt more than help, but they are forcing the refineries to go through with it anyway to meet the EPA mandates.

The EPA is worthless.

So I am pretty much understanding correctly, but I can't understand why this mandate exists which cannot really be met and will cause all the harms listed (assuming those claims are correct). Why is Obama forcing such a mandate if it's worthless and harmful? What exactly is his reasoning? Have you read that anywhere?

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"myyams" wrote:

So I am pretty much understanding correctly, but I can't understand why this mandate exists which cannot really be met and will cause all the harms listed (assuming those claims are correct). Why is Obama forcing such a mandate if it's worthless and harmful? What exactly is his reasoning? Have you read that anywhere?

Well that's the million dollar question isn't it. Government at it's best. Probably the same reason that they dumped all that money into Solyndra and are putting unrealistic regulations on coal even though it is putting people out of work. To try and meet a pie in the sky ideal no matter how unrealistic it is or how many people get hurt along the way.

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IDK, there is a lot of research going on right now into renewable fuel sources, maybe this is intended to force producers to fund some of that research, and help turn it into real world solutions.

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Whatever happened to those cars that can run on part water and part fuel? Then someone else had a kit to convert water to be used as fuel? I saw on CNN one time a Dr in Pakistan had worked on some ongoing ideas and came up with a converter. I'll see if I can find a link.

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Ethanol in gas tanks are very hard on most cars, especially ones that are equipped with the flex fuel option. From what I understand, with the wear and tear on engines over the long term there will be a severe net deficit in renewable energy.

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I guess the way I see it is the problem is the engines, not the ethanol or biodiesel. Yeah, ethanol is a problem, but that's a mechanical issue, not an environmental one from the renewable resource standpoint. Fertilizer companies are going to make a killing from the increased demand for ethanol once the oil's all gone.

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"ClairesMommy" wrote:

I guess the way I see it is the problem is the engines, not the ethanol or biodiesel. Yeah, ethanol is a problem, but that's a mechanical issue, not an environmental one from the renewable resource standpoint. Fertilizer companies are going to make a killing from the increased demand for ethanol once the oil's all gone.

I really doubt it since once the oil is gone they won't be able to make ethanol, since it takes as much energy to create it as it produces.

7) Ethanol Affords Absolutely No Net Energy Benefit:
Although ethanol has been touted as a “renewable” fuel, it is anything but that. It offers no net fuel-saving benefit whatsoever since it requires as much fuel to plant, fertilize, harvest and process the corn into grain alcohol as it produces.

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Ron Paul. This crap wouldn't happen if our Federal Government was following the Constitution as intended.

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I'm pretty anti-ethanol. It is ridiculous to take a food crop and try to make fuel from it IMO (drives up food costs AND takes a sh!t ton of water to produce.)

Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.

I'd much prefer a push for natural gas powered vehicles. We just need more CNG stations to make that float.....

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#1 we are assuming we will run out of oil.
#2 we as a nation are not tapping into our own oil.. instead we create something that isn't a short term fix even it is a short term.. bandaid (that causes a gaping wound, that we can't see because of the bandaid) ;).
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My husband knows all about engines and fuel, ethanol is an alchohol and breaks down all seals and the engine itself. Diesel is a great fuel as it is a lubricant.

#3 The main push from Obama is coming from a worldview that HUMANS and specifically engines etc are causing global warming (which was already proved false and the dems wouldn't admit it, instead changed the name to Climate Change). And also the thought that Carbon and specifically Carbon Dioxide from vehicles is contributing to the HARM to a horrendous point that we must change it. However if they took time to look at the facts, which I am sure they know.. if they shared the fact which they don't you have to dig for them, one would see that they are so deluded.
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The push is also from a mindset of control, he believes government can do better than the individual, it encompasses all he does in politics, and is an valid viewpoint but I totally disagree. If you step back and look for a minute, you will see that the more power a government has the worse the living gets. Lack of choices, freedom, independence.. lead to a government that can switch negatively on its people very quickly and the "people" go right along with it... it has happened time and time again historically, but people worldwide, continue to hide from it, and fall for the same old line over and over, that the Government can do better than we can. Heck this amazing country was FORMED because another had too much POWER over the people.

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If I'm reading it right, the 4 gallon minimum is to actually prevent people with small engines that would be damaged by the ethanol from buying it? So in other words, if you want to buy the ethanol mixed gas, you do so knowing that you have to buy 4 gallons, so you wouldn't do it if you were filling up your motorcycle or getting gas for your lawn mower. Seems like a weird way to back into it....

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This is not an area that I know a ton about. I do know though that most gas stations here have gas mixed with Ethanol. DH goes to a special gas station to but gas for his gadgets and for his car.

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"Alissa_Sal" wrote:

If I'm reading it right, the 4 gallon minimum is to actually prevent people with small engines that would be damaged by the ethanol from buying it? So in other words, if you want to buy the ethanol mixed gas, you do so knowing that you have to buy 4 gallons, so you wouldn't do it if you were filling up your motorcycle or getting gas for your lawn mower. Seems like a weird way to back into it....

The 4 gallon minimum is the keep people who are buying the normal gas from having their engines damaged by any left over higher ethanol mixed gas that might be still in the same hose since they will be on the same pump. So if someone in front of you gets the higher mix, and you are behind them with a motorcylce and want normal gas you are out of luck, because you are likely going to get a tank full of the higher mix whether you wanted it or not.

ETA: In otherwords the 4 gallon minimum isn't really going to solve anything because the motorcycle is still going to get the mixed gas because there is no way they can actually pump 4 gallons to dilute the ethanol gas. Unless they dump the first gallon on the ground or something.

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"Alissa_Sal" wrote:

If I'm reading it right, the 4 gallon minimum is to actually prevent people with small engines that would be damaged by the ethanol from buying it? So in other words, if you want to buy the ethanol mixed gas, you do so knowing that you have to buy 4 gallons, so you wouldn't do it if you were filling up your motorcycle or getting gas for your lawn mower. Seems like a weird way to back into it....

In our area we do not have the choice whether to buy ethanol or not, it is mandated by the state. We have to drive to Washington to get gas without any ethanol, we do this to use in our airplane engine.. which is another interesting topic when it comes to gas mandates.. the government is mandated private aircraft out of business.