Thread: Abortion = Tampering with the Evidence of a Rape?

Originally Posted by GloriaInTX

The rape is already illegal, I'm not so sure about the forced abortion.

I would say that yes, forcing someone to have an abortion is definitely illegal. It would amount to assault, coersion, fraud....I don't really know what.

Originally Posted by GloriaInTX

The rape is already illegal, I'm not so sure about the forced abortion.

I'm not sure either. I have heard of lots of teen girls who have said their parents forced them to have an abortion. I don't think by assault, but more like heavy pressure and threats maybe. But generally those cases where not in incestual types of rapes or rape at all, more like consensual sex producing pregnancy. I don't really know what the laws are but it'd be interesting to find that out.

Originally Posted by Rivergallery

So legal = morally right... hummm

Legal means I decide for myself whether it is moral or not in choosing the act/behavior.

Self defense is legal murder. Don't think I could bring myself to do it. Owning a gun is legal; I don't believe it is morally right to keep a gun in homes where someone who has a documented history of mental illness lives. Premarital sex is legal yet many choose not to. Adultery is legal, yet not necessarily moral for many people. I can judge all of the above as immoral by my standards. But do I get to legisilate my own morality and force you to follow my morals?

I find it absolutely impossible to believe that someone who didn't want an abortion could be forced into it. There is so much counseling required, and a waiting period and then more counseling. If you have someone with you, they have to leave the room for at least part of the counseling, that's required just to make sure that you're not being forced or coerced. They give you tons of opportunity to say no, to change your mind, to say that you're being forced into it. They'll ask that person to leave the premises, they'll ask someone else to come get you. They give you all kinds of information about support services and counseling services, how to apply for welfare, emergency shelters if you can't go home, where to get low-cost prenatal care. You basically have to insist loud & clear that you really do want to have the abortion. Anyone who claims they were forced or coerced is either lying about it, or they lied to their abortion counselors.

Originally Posted by Spacers

I find it absolutely impossible to believe that someone who didn't want an abortion could be forced into it. There is so much counseling required, and a waiting period and then more counseling. If you have someone with you, they have to leave the room for at least part of the counseling, that's required just to make sure that you're not being forced or coerced. They give you tons of opportunity to say no, to change your mind, to say that you're being forced into it. They'll ask that person to leave the premises, they'll ask someone else to come get you. They give you all kinds of information about support services and counseling services, how to apply for welfare, emergency shelters if you can't go home, where to get low-cost prenatal care. You basically have to insist loud & clear that you really do want to have the abortion. Anyone who claims they were forced or coerced is either lying about it, or they lied to their abortion counselors.

If you think a young girl being raped by her father would never be intimidated enough to go through all that without telling someone you are deluding yourself. Especially after some of the undercover videos that have surfaced from Planned Parenthood where the counselors were going out of their way to help girls have an abortion even when the girl stated that she was underage and the father of the baby was in his thirties. The situation in this video it could have easily been her father or an uncle or someone that told her to go in and lie to get an abortion, and the counselors are sure not going to try and talk them out of it.

Anti-abortion movement gets a new-media twist - Los Angeles Times

I agree with Gloria to the extent that some victims of rape could be easily coerced into an abortion by a family member or person who exerts some kind of control over her....maybe even the rapist himself, especially if the rapist is part of the family. I'm trying to imagine myself at 13 or 14 or so...being raped and then not knowing what's best. You're young, naive, and probably a lot more willing to be reassured that abortion is the only way.

Originally Posted by GloriaInTX

Father rapes daughter. Father takes daughter to get an abortion to hide the fact that daughter is pregnant. Daughter is scared of Father so goes along with abortion.

2 things: 1. If it isn't already illegal to force someone to have an abortion (whether you raped them first or not) then it should be. But at that point we also need to define what "force" really means. Even a dad that raped his daughter can't actually perform an abortion or force her to submit to one, short of assault. I'm fine with saying that people aren't allowed to force or even heavily coerce others to have an abortion, but that seems like it's a separate issue from rape because coercion happens whether the woman is raped or not.

2. Again, I'm looking at the actual wording of the proposed law. It said "Tampering with evidence shall include procuring or facilitating an abortion, or compelling or coercing another to obtain an abortion," If it was simply against coercing women to get abortions, the only part they needed is the part after the "or" (i.e. "Tampering with evidence shall include compelling or coercing another to obtain an abortion,") I agree with Claire that it sounds like a lot of backpedaling to me once the Rep realized that she was getting huge backlash.

Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal

2 things: 1. If it isn't already illegal to force someone to have an abortion (whether you raped them first or not) then it should be. But at that point we also need to define what "force" really means. Even a dad that raped his daughter can't actually perform an abortion or force her to submit to one, short of assault. I'm fine with saying that people aren't allowed to force or even heavily coerce others to have an abortion, but that seems like it's a separate issue from rape because coercion happens whether the woman is raped or not.

That may be exactly why this law is needed, because they could add on extra charges even if they couldn't prove the abortion was forced. All they would have to show is that abortion was to hide evidence of the rape. And I disagree that he couldn't force his daugther to have an abortion. The threat of violence is just as real as actual force.

Originally Posted by GloriaInTX

That may be exactly why this law is needed, because they could add on extra charges even if they couldn't prove the abortion was forced. All they would have to show is that abortion was to hide evidence of the rape. And I disagree that he couldn't force his daugther to have an abortion. The threat of violence is just as real as actual force.

This doesn't make sense to me. Pregnancy may be evidence of sex but not necessarily rape.

Originally Posted by GloriaInTX

That may be exactly why this law is needed, because they could add on extra charges even if they couldn't prove the abortion was forced. All they would have to show is that abortion was to hide evidence of the rape. And I disagree that he couldn't force his daugther to have an abortion. The threat of violence is just as real as actual force.

How would they prove that the abortion was to hide the evidence of the rape without proving that it was forced? I mean, if a dad rapes his daughter and she wants an abortion just because she wants one (understandably, IMO) then the abortion isn't really to hide evidence of the rape. IMO it seems like it would be next to impossible to prove that the abortion was to hide evidence of the rape without proving that it was forced; otherwise I think it's a fair assumption that perhaps the daughter simply didn't want a daily, forever reminder of her ordeal.