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  1. #111
    Posting Addict ClairesMommy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacers View Post
    Personally I find it despicable that people in different states don't have the same right to health care, and that's one reason why I support universal health care. And the Ireland situation absolutely is applicable. Ireland is part of the United Kingdom and yet it doesn't allow women to get the medical care they need even to save their own lives, and makes it difficult for women in ill health to travel to other parts of the UK to get the medical care they want. I can easily picture certain anti-choice states in *our* union attempting the same thing. Sometimes the federal government is right to prevent states from doing whatever they want.
    Northern Ireland is part of the UK, but not Ireland. The place where this happened is in Ireland. Northern Ireland does allow abortions on a case-by-case basis where the mother's health is placed at risk.

    What happened in Ireland is disgusting. If she had been able to get to NI for the abortion her life could've been saved.

  2. #112
    Posting Addict Spacers's Avatar
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    **slaps head** I should have remembered that Ireland & Northern Ireland aren't the same. But the original article I read said Ireland was in the UK so I'm not totally to blame for the mistake.

    Elective abortion should be no different than any other OB/GYN procedure and no government entity should ever be involved in the decision. Period. Not the state, not the federal level. No one should have anything to say about any woman's medical care except her and her doctor, and her partner if she wants to involve him. And certainly not you or me. So yes, Lillie, I would be happy to take it away from the federal government, but it also shouldn't be something any state has the right to decide, either. Only each individual pregnant woman has the right to make that decision.
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  3. #113
    Community Host wlillie's Avatar
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    Again, not debating abortion. Not going to change my opinion, not going to change yours, not going to do anything except repeat the exact same things.

    However, my point *is* that if we had a Republican Federal Government, there would be a huge number of people who would be willing to secede from the United States if the federal abortion law said that elective abortions were illegal. Because that is *not* something the constitution granted them the right to decide, everyone should be appalled that they are the ones making that decision. This time it was your opinion about it that carried the day; how are you going to handle it when the tide turns? Or what happens if President Obama decides this is something he changes his mind about? And tries to get rid of that right? Tries to make it illegal to get an abortion?

  4. #114
    Community Host Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    I would not want my state to secede from the union over abortion. I love this country, and would want to remain part of it to be able to fight to try to change the law back because I believe that is the right thing to do. I am not of the mindset that "as long as I have my civil rights, I don't care what other people have to go through in their area."
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  5. #115
    Posting Addict ClairesMommy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacers View Post
    **slaps head** I should have remembered that Ireland & Northern Ireland aren't the same. But the original article I read said Ireland was in the UK so I'm not totally to blame for the mistake.

    Elective abortion should be no different than any other OB/GYN procedure and no government entity should ever be involved in the decision. Period. Not the state, not the federal level. No one should have anything to say about any woman's medical care except her and her doctor, and her partner if she wants to involve him. And certainly not you or me. So yes, Lillie, I would be happy to take it away from the federal government, but it also shouldn't be something any state has the right to decide, either. Only each individual pregnant woman has the right to make that decision.
    Yeah, I saw in the article this link to other 'UK news' or something and I scratched my head about where this all went down. Not that I was 'blaming' you! And for the record I 100% agree with your second paragraph about a woman's ultimate right to choose.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    I would not want my state to secede from the union over abortion. I love this country, and would want to remain part of it to be able to fight to try to change the law back because I believe that is the right thing to do. I am not of the mindset that "as long as I have my civil rights, I don't care what other people have to go through in their area."
    I am just trying to understand your position (not change it, just understand it). If the fed govt made it legal to kill all children age 2 and under and there was no way you could change it, would you want your state to succeed? Is it that you do not think and unborn baby is the same as a born baby? Or is it something else?

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  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    I am just trying to understand your position (not change it, just understand it). If the fed govt made it legal to kill all children age 2 and under and there was no way you could change it, would you want your state to succeed? Is it that you do not think and unborn baby is the same as a born baby? Or is it something else?
    I am not answering for Alissa. It's a painful choice to terminate a pregnancy. But, if the mother cannot survive, then the baby doesn't survive in utero. Killing a born child is a very different story than terminating before birth. I would not want to secede regardless of what the laws are. Lots of the laws 'already' are against what I believe in. Just like I can imagine that many are against what you believe - as is the same for all people. I am not sure if the laws are completely in line with all of anyone's beliefs. We bear with the laws of morality or lack of and we make our personal choices.
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  8. #118
    Community Host Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    I am just trying to understand your position (not change it, just understand it). If the fed govt made it legal to kill all children age 2 and under and there was no way you could change it, would you want your state to succeed? Is it that you do not think and unborn baby is the same as a born baby? Or is it something else?
    No if the federal government made it legal to kill all children age 2 and under, I would not want to secede, because then I would have even less of a say about it. By staying a part of the country, I could continue to fight to raise awareness, change minds, get people on my side. By removing myself from from the country, I would remove my ability to change things for those kids.

    Having said that, no I do not think that abortion is the same as killing a born baby. Again, if a mother does not want to or is unable to care for a born baby, the state can take over care of the baby. This is simply not true for a fetus prior to the point of viability. It's not like the mom can say "I don't want this child" and then the state has some super lab where the baby can live in a test tube until they are ready to be born. If we DID have that technology, it would open up a whole new can of worms about the ethics of keeping millions of unborn children alive only to have them put into state care, but we don't have that technology so the point is moot. The two just can't be compared in my mind.
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  9. #119
    Posting Addict Rivergallery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    Like who? I've never seen a legitimate push to deter any sort of public worship except that it cannot be state sanctioned (so for example, a school cannot lead a class prayer because that is construed as a state sanctioning religion, but individual students are free to pray to their hearts' content as long as they aren't disrupting class by being loud (they aren't allowed to disrupt class anyway, not just because of religion.)
    Freedom of religion isn't the same as freedom of worship services.
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  10. #120
    Posting Addict Rivergallery's Avatar
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    Oregon and Washington are way liberal, almost always going blue. So they are not "throwing a tantrum" or any such thing. I think those two states especially would be fed up with the laws regarding hemp and marijuana especially, among others.

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