Blocking puberty?

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Blocking puberty?

Is it appropriate to give an 11 year old child drugs to block puberty? Do you think the lesbian parents of this boy could be affecting his decisions?

A lesbian couple in California who say their 11-year-old son Tommy who wants to be a girl named Tammy are giving their child hormone blockers that delay the onset of puberty -- so that he can have more time that he can have more time to decide if he wants to change his gender.

The couple’s supporters say the Hormone Blocking Therapy has only minor side effects and is appropriate for a child who is unsure of his gender. "This is definitely a changing landscape for transgender youth," said Joel Baum, director of education and training for Gender Spectrum, a California-based non-profit group. "This is about giving kids and their families the opportunity to make the right decision."

But critics of the treatment say 11-year-olds are not old enough to make life-altering decisions about changing their gender, and parents should not be encouraging them. They say it’s too soon to tell what the side effects of the treatments may be, and they say Tommy’s parents, Pauline Moreno and Debra Lobel, are irresponsible for seeking them and allowing them to be administered.

"This is child abuse. It's like performing liposuction on an anorexic child," said Dr. Paul McHugh, professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University.

"It is a disorder of the mind. Not a disorder of the body. Dealing with it in this way is not dealing with the problem that truly exists.

“We shouldn't be mucking around with nature. We can’t assume what the outcome will be," McHugh said.

Dr. Manny Alvarez, senior managing health editor of FoxNews.com, said the hormone blockers also may pose a medical risk. "I think that it’s highly inappropriate to be interfering with natural hormonal growth patterns,” Alvarez said. “There are significant potential problems necessary for growth and development.

"Potential long-term effects can include other abnormalities of hormones, vascular complications and even potential cancer. I think that if this child – as he finishes his puberty and teenage years – decides to undergo a transgender procedure – then there are proper channels to do so.

“But to do it at the age of 11 -- to me -- could be potentially dangerous to the health of this child," he said.

Tommy's parents, Moreno and Lobel, say they support their child and feel this is the best way for him to find an answer to a question he’s been asking all his life. They say Tommy – whom they now call Tammy – began taking GnRH inhibitors over the summer so that he will remain a prepubescent boy until he turns 14 or 15. They say they want to give him more time to explore the female gender identity that he associates with.

Thomas began saying he was a girl when he was 3 years old, his parents said in an interview with the Daily Mail. He was learning sign language due to a speech impediment, and one of the first things he told his mothers was, “I am a girl.” They say they thought he was confused or mistaken, and signed back, 'No. No. Thomas is a boy."

But Thomas insisted, they said. He shook his head “no” and repeated what he had signed.
They said Thomas threatened to mutilate his genitals when he was 7, and psychiatrists diagnosed a gender identity disorder.

One year later, he began transitioning to Tammy.

After much deliberation with family and therapists, the child began taking hormone blockers a few months ago. The medication, which must be changed once a year, was implanted in the boy’s upper left arm.

Tommy will continue this treatment until he turns 14 or 15, at which point he will be taken off the blockers and pursue the gender he feels is the right one. He will then either start his puberty cycle as a boy – or begin making the full transition to a girl.

"There's an increase of children who are telling their parents that they are a different gender. We're trying to understand why there's an increase," said Diane Ehrensaft, a developmental and clinical psychologist and author of the book, "Gender-Born. Gender-Made," who says the trend may be due to a more open society.

But while chemicals are giving children like Tommy more time to decide which side of the fence they belong on, some critics say that some children who question their identity at a very young age might change their mind when they start adolescence.

"Most transgender patients will say that they knew at 6 years old. But what we don't know is how many others had those thoughts and feelings that went away once they hit puberty," said Dr. Jeffrey Spiegel, a professor at Boston University and a plastic surgeon who specializes in facial feminization operations for transgender men.

"While it may be a good therapy for those who've committed to transgender, it may not be good for those who might have changed their mind once they hit puberty and beyond."

Walt Heyer, whose book "Paper Genders" details his own experience transitioning from a man to a woman and back again, agreed. "The blockers should NOT be introduced to a child," Heyer said. "If they are going to make a transition, they should wait to do so when they reach 18 to 20 years old. When you start the therapy at that age you are not dealing with the fact that the mind is not fully developed."

Heyer also cited a Dutch study that said 61 percent of individuals who desire a gender change are found to have secondary psychiatric disorders, such as depression or dissociative disorder, which he suffered from.

Other critics asked whether Tommy’s same-sex parents may be unknowingly influencing his questions about his gender.

“Undue influence on the child simply has to be ruled out,” said psychiatrist Keith Ablow, a Fox News contributor. “It's the psychologically correct thing to do, the ethical thing to do and the moral thing to do."

"Obviously, when two females adopt a male child, then assert that the child is not actually male, but is, instead, actually a female -- like both of them. Everyone in the family should be psychologically evaluated in a comprehensive way before a step like gender reassignment is considered,” said Ablow.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/17/controversial-therapy-for-young-transgender-patients-raises-questions/#ixzz1b3r9dagi

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My personal thought is that this is not a good idea for a child of 11. I cannot imagine that the long term side effects aren't harmful. A child's body is meant to grow. If he wants to change his gender when he's an adult then he should go for it. But to alter his natural growth projection without physical need is reckless.

I also cannot imagine that he fully understands what this all means. Is he really emotionally and mentally sophisticated enough at 11 to fully grasp the potential implications of these drugs and postponing puberty?

How do they know that puberty or the natuaral progression of his body would or wouldn't change his mind? Will they do a sex change operation on him if he still chooses this when he turns 12? This is a means to what end?

Are his ideas influenced by his parents? I'm sure they are. All children are influenced by their parents. That's not to say they are pushing their ideas about his wanting to be a different gender, it's just to say that all parents influence their children.

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"carg0612" wrote:

My personal thought is that this is not a good idea for a child of 11. I cannot imagine that the long term side effects aren't harmful. A child's body is meant to grow. If he wants to change his gender when he's an adult then he should go for it. But to alter his natural growth projection without physical need is reckless.

I also cannot imagine that he fully understands what this all means. Is he really emotionally and mentally sophisticated enough at 11 to fully grasp the potential implications of these drugs and postponing puberty?

How do they know that puberty or the natuaral progression of his body would or wouldn't change his mind? Will they do a sex change operation on him if he still chooses this when he turns 12? This is a means to what end?

Are his ideas influenced by his parents? I'm sure they are. All children are influenced by their parents. That's not to say they are pushing their ideas about his wanting to be a different gender, it's just to say that all parents influence their children.

I agree with this. I have nothing against changing genders, but this is holding back the natural progression of his body. Who knows if this child wouldnt become more comfortable with his body as puberty progresses and change his mind (or not...who knows?). I dont see this as giving him more time to decide, as much as holding him frozen in this decision until he is seen as 'old enough' to make the official decision to change his gender.

Having said that, these parents claim to have consulted with therapists when making this decision, and that the child threatened self mutilation at one point. So I wonder if there isnt more to this than we are being told (perhaps there is danger of physical harm as his body matures), and the drugs are a way to keep the child safe.

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I know that the point of the drugs is to delay and give him time to think it over without physically becoming more manly - but I still think that 11 is too young to make these kinds of decisions that could have long lasting health impacts.

I will say that I kind of admire these parents for so completely standing by and supporting their child in the face of a gender crisis. I just don't know that this is the right way to go about it for the child's well being.

I support people having the ability to change their gender once they are adults and have been fully screened for psychological issues, but I think that a child of 11 is too young to really internalize the full consequences of something like this.

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What does them being "lesbian parents" have to do with the debate? I don't remember any parenting debate where the straightness of the parents was expressed? If anything the child is probably lucky to have gay aprents because they are more likely to be accepting of transgendered issues.

I think the decision is between the parents and their child and their doctor. I do think children who are transgendered know very early on. And there are tons of medications that parents decide to give their kids that have side effects worse then what this drug does. I would love to see a debate about whether children should be given Ridalen?

And the idea that being transgendered is a disorder at all is insane.

And why did you bold that particular part of the article? I believe transgendered people have a higher rate of depression. I would argue that it is probably not because they are transgendered but because many of them are told they have a disorder and treated like periah and feel they have to keep living a lie of who they are.

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I'm all for transgendered adults getting the hormones & surgery they need to be the person they are on the inside. Kids, OTOH, I think need to keep growing up, learning more about the body they inhabit, and perhaps exploring the issues of their sexuality with professionals. I'm not saying that kids can't be transgendered, just that the age of 11 might be too early to define oneself when there are so many definitions out there. Perhaps this boy might discover that he's an effeminate gay man or a straight crossdresser rather than the girl he identifies as now? Puberty is so powerful, I can't wrap my mind around delaying it to give the child time to explore when that's what puberty is all about. It just doesn't make sense to me, it isn't a fully informed decision on the child's part. Let the child grow & develop naturally & normally, and then he or she can make a decision with all the information, including how it feels to live in an adult man's body.

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"Alissa_Sal" wrote:

I support people having the ability to change their gender once they are adults and have been fully screened for psychological issues, but I think that a child of 11 is too young to really internalize the full consequences of something like this.

I agree with this, for the most part. I don't agree with anyone changing their gender, ever... but if someone is going to do this they need to make this decision only once they're a legal adult and have been sreened as Alissa said. To me the parents are playing into this. I have three children, and I've never had one say that they want to be the opposite sex. It makes wonder if secretly these parents pushed this child in this direction? Has anyone on here ever had a child that has toyed around with these ideas? Just curious...

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"Starryblue702" wrote:

I agree with this, for the most part. I don't agree with anyone changing their gender, ever... but if someone is going to do this they need to make this decision only once they're a legal adult and have been sreened as Alissa said. To me the parents are playing into this. I have three children, and I've never had one say that they want to be the opposite sex. It makes wonder if secretly these parents pushed this child in this direction? Has anyone on here ever had a child that has toyed around with these ideas? Just curious...

But maybe thats the point. It doesn't matter how many children you have, if they are happy with their gender, then why would they say differently. But if a child of that age is saying consistently that they want to be the other gender, then it is indicating a true desire to be that gender. He isnt 'toying around' with anything, it is a real need to be seen as different then he is.

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"Starryblue702" wrote:

I agree with this, for the most part. I don't agree with anyone changing their gender, ever... but if someone is going to do this they need to make this decision only once they're a legal adult and have been sreened as Alissa said. To me the parents are playing into this. I have three children, and I've never had one say that they want to be the opposite sex. It makes wonder if secretly these parents pushed this child in this direction? Has anyone on here ever had a child that has toyed around with these ideas? Just curious...

I don't understand this logic. So you only believe that things happen in this world if your children personally have experienced it?

And no one is changing this childs sex for heaven sakes. Y'all don'tseem to understand how hormone therapy works.

HOW HORMONE BLOCKING WORKS:
Tammy Lobel's hormones are being blocked by an implant on the inside of the 11-year-old's upper left arm, which must be replaced once a year. Ms Moreno explained: 'In other words, she will stay as a pre-pubescent boy until she decides and we feel that she can make this decision about surgery.'His parents say the hormone treatment will give him time to figure out if he wants to fully transition to being female or go through puberty as a boy.By age 14 or 15 the device will need to be removed so that Tammy can go through puberty, Ms Moreno said. If he chooses to stop taking the drugs, he will undergo natural male puberty at a later stage and his future fertility would not be impacted. Should their son decide to transition to an adult female, he can take female hormones as well, which would raise his voice, allow him to grow breasts and develop other feminine physical characteristics.

They aren't changing his sex or doing anything permanent. Actually they are doing this because they don't think she is old enough to make a permanent decision. She also told her parents that she wanted to hurt herself and perform genital mutilation because she is not a boy. That paired with the statistic that about 50% of transgendered youth will try and commit suicide some time int heir life, these parents are in effect saving their childs life because they are not allowing thier prejudices to dictate what their child should do.

This child was diagnosed as trandgendered. That means qualified doctors and therapists talked to this child and made the decisions. Not just the parents one day deciding they wanted their child to be a girl (which to me is offensive and completely untrue since they have an 2 older sons who are not transgendered :roll:). She goes to therapists and is monitored constantly by drs. how many of you do that for your children before you give them some medication?

I think this article is much more indepth.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2043345/The-California-boy-11-undergoing-hormone-blocking-treatment.html

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I agree with pp. 11 is too young and delaying the onset of puberty even a few years to 13/14 is still IMO way too young for a decision like this.

I think that the boy should be allowed to develop naturally. Give him some guidance, therapy and if and when he is an adult, he still feels that way, he can go through the long process of gender reassignment.

It is such a huge decision that shouldn't be made by a 11 year old.

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Lana,
I understand that the point is to give him more time to think. I just have a hard time believing that being on hormones that disrupt normal growth and development for 3-4 years wouldn't carry some pretty serious long term health risks, and I don't know that a child of 11 is truly able to understand that. You know how kids are, they have that "It could never happen to me" mindset even when they know the risks. It just seems like a really drastic and huge and risky undertaking, which is why I don't know that I think it is the right thing to do.

Having said that, I will reiterate that I do admire these parents for standing by their child so completely and truly listening to what he is telling them about himself. I think it's obvious that they are very loving and supportive parents. And no, I don't think that any of this has to do with the fact that they are a lesbian couple. Puh-lenty of transgendered people are born to and raised by straight couples.

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"Spacers" wrote:

, I think need to keep growing up, learning more about the body they inhabit, and perhaps exploring the issues of their sexuality with professionals. I'm not saying that kids can't be transgendered, just that the age of 11 might be too early to define oneself when there are so many definitions out there. Perhaps this boy might discover that he's an effeminate gay man or a straight crossdresser rather than the girl he identifies as now? Puberty is so powerful, I can't wrap my mind around delaying it to give the child time to explore when that's what puberty is all about. It just doesn't make sense to me, it isn't a fully informed decision on the child's part. Let the child grow & develop naturally & normally, and then he or she can make a decision with all the information, including how it feels to live in an adult man's body.

I agree with this. It seems too early to me to be doing this. But I will confess that I do think being transgendered is a disorder, it seems to be that at its core. You are born as a specific gender and something inside you, everything inside you, tells you you're not that? How can that not be a disorder? The physical contradicts the emotional/psychological in every possible way.

I don't have the solution, but you simply can't transform into the other gender no matter how much surgery you have. It isn't a true transformation. I think there has to be a better way to help these people, I don't deny the pain they are going through, or the reality of it.

I hope this kid gets some help, it does sound like the parents are doing everything they can. It's just not the same choice I think I would make if I was in that position. Although it sounds like they are trying to help their child NOT have to define himself, so the motivation is clearly loving and caring.

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I just think the whole thing is so wrong. It isn't necessarily the kid or individual that is wrong in feeling that way.. The question is why... I dare say it is society itself. If we put to many restrictions on gender and say females can only act xyz, and males abc.. then we have a problem. GOD created us unique, he formed us. I think drastically changing what God has done is fundamentaly wrong. We should examine society and individual thought about the issue much more before changing something God created. (I am not talking diseases or deformities here.. and gender isn't a deformity.. unless talking about being born with both chromosomes, but we are not talking that here) We are talking about a Male (physical definition - born with a penis) wanting to cut off his body part, he will never bear children and be a mother. He will simply be a male without his penis. Why can't we as society just accept that males can do stereotypical female activities or act in feminine ways and it be socially acceptable, and they be just as male as the masculine men?

At 3 my boys both were decovering differences between boys and girls, they said they were girls a few times, it is NORMAL, but to take that to mean he wasn't a boy is wrong. He is, he needs to accept he is. He will always be. Just because a woman has a double masectomy doesn't make her any less of a woman.. cutting off body parts doesn't change who God made you.

These types of situations just break my heart, society itself is broken, and it comes out with our children thinking something is wrong with them!

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AFAIK, transsexuals know very early that they are the other gender. There was a court case in this very conservative country a couple of years ago to let a girl born as a boy dress in the girls' uniform when she started elementary school (just shy of 7). Unlike issues of sexuality, gender transition is less fluid, and less prone to hormones.

I don't think this is anything the parents are taking lightly. I think that they may be more understanding just because they probably have experiences of being other than normal during their own teen years. TBH, I would say to just trust the parents and child in this case. There is no rulebook for situations like this, they are doing the best they have, trying to help their very loved child the best they can. I would have no idea what to do if it was my kid, and none of the options is perfect.

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

I just think the whole thing is so wrong. It isn't necessarily the kid or individual that is wrong in feeling that way.. The question is why... I dare say it is society itself. If we put to many restrictions on gender and say females can only act xyz, and males abc.. then we have a problem. GOD created us unique, he formed us. I think drastically changing what God has done is fundamentaly wrong. We should examine society and individual thought about the issue much more before changing something God created. (I am not talking diseases or deformities here.. and gender isn't a deformity.. unless talking about being born with both chromosomes, but we are not talking that here) We are talking about a Male (physical definition - born with a penis) wanting to cut off his body part, he will never bear children and be a mother. He will simply be a male without his penis. Why can't we as society just accept that males can do stereotypical female activities or act in feminine ways and it be socially acceptable, and they be just as male as the masculine men?

At 3 my boys both were decovering differences between boys and girls, they said they were girls a few times, it is NORMAL, but to take that to mean he wasn't a boy is wrong. He is, he needs to accept he is. He will always be. Just because a woman has a double masectomy doesn't make her any less of a woman.. cutting off body parts doesn't change who God made you.

These types of situations just break my heart, society itself is broken, and it comes out with our children thinking something is wrong with them!

Uncharacteristically, I agree with most of this. Take out the God parts, as my beliefs are different, and I do think we are talking about something MUCH more serious and intense than just discovering gender differences and playing with them. But that said: I think that cutting off and replacing body parts doesn't change what you are, and never will. I think there are bigger issues than just trying to make physical changes. So while I don't agree with everything here, I share the general sentiment. Flame away.

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I do agree at 11 it is much more serious.. his statement at 3 wasn't. The only reason I could think 2 lesbians may come into the equasion is a lack of a variety of male influences? If he was the only male in his life to compare himself too? Otherwise I don't see how it matters.

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

I do agree at 11 it is much more serious.. his statement at 3 wasn't. The only reason I could think 2 lesbians may come into the equasion is a lack of a variety of male influences? If he was the only male in his life to compare himself too? Otherwise I don't see how it matters.

oops double post, see below. sorry. blame the ipad

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

I do agree at 11 it is much more serious.. his statement at 3 wasn't. The only reason I could think 2 lesbians may come into the equasion is a lack of a variety of male influences? If he was the only male in his life to compare himself too? Otherwise I don't see how it matters.

That doesn't matter at all to me and I would not assume there is a lack of male influence based on it, nor would it be a factor in such an extreme situation. This is more than just pretending to be a girl during playtime.

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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

Uncharacteristically, I agree with most of this. Take out the God parts, as my beliefs are different, and I do think we are talking about something MUCH more serious and intense than just discovering gender differences and playing with them. But that said: I think that cutting off and replacing body parts doesn't change what you are, and never will. I think there are bigger issues than just trying to make physical changes. So while I don't agree with everything here, I share the general sentiment. Flame away.

I actually do too (aside from the God part.) I did a huge research paper in college on the subject of gender and identity, including meeting with and interviewing several transgendered individuals from the LGBT office on campus.

The basic question that I had that I could never quite wrap my head around is really, what is gender? What is it made up of? Where are the lines really drawn between the genders?

I know what sex is, obviously - those are the organs that you are born with. But so what - a man can be born with male genitals and still be attracted to (and enjoy using his genitals with) other males. That's not uncommon. And for that matter, one of the transgendered women I met with considered herself to be a lesbian. She was born a male, was transitioning to become a woman, and was attracted to women and had actually fathered a child with her long time partner (a woman). So obviously genitals don't necessarily make up gender.

On the same token, it is possible for men to dress up as women (and vice versa) without changing their genitals. Anyone can act more "feminine" or more "manly" in accordance with their personalities. So gender isn't necessarily made up of what you look like, or what you act like. So what is it really? I think it's really hard to pin down. And I think that possibly part of the problem with transgendered individuals is that as a society, we are fairly rigid in our definitions of gender (girls act and look and dress like XYZ) without really stopping to think about what gender really is.

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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

Uncharacteristically, I agree with most of this. Take out the God parts, as my beliefs are different, and I do think we are talking about something MUCH more serious and intense than just discovering gender differences and playing with them. But that said: I think that cutting off and replacing body parts doesn't change what you are, and never will. I think there are bigger issues than just trying to make physical changes. So while I don't agree with everything here, I share the general sentiment. Flame away.

I agree with you and what you said. There are deep psychological issues within the boy and his family that must be addressed before hormones or any other medical are introduced to the situation. And I couldn't agree more with you when you say, you can replace a few body parts but it doesn't change the fact that you were born a certain way. Chromosomes cannot be changed, so your sex will always remain the same.

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I think they're doing the best the can with the difficult situation they're in. I'm not sure I'd go to those measures, but I have never been in that position.

Gender is in the brain, not the genitals.

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"JorgieGirl" wrote:

Gender is in the brain, not the genitals.

Well it is and it isn't.

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It is in the chromosomes. XY = Boy XX=Girl

Chromosome adnormalities can include XXX=Girl (just taller) X and part of another X=Female, XYY=Male

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Sex is in the chromosomes. Gender isn't.

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Granted gender is not in the physical.

"Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

"Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.

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Ok for the sake of debate.. IF Gender is all in the brain, should we alter our sex to coinside with our gender. Alter our Gender to coinside with our sex, or figure a way to live with them how we were given them?

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

Ok for the sake of debate.. IF Gender is all in the brain, should we alter our sex to coinside with our gender. Alter our Gender to coinside with our sex, or figure a way to live with them how we were given them?

I was just thinking the same thing.

If gender is based on societal cues for behavior, then where is the biological connection?

If a female feels like a male (gender wise), shouldn't the change be simplier then the change of biology?

What I am saying is if I feel like I am a man inside, can I be a man in gender role with the biology of a woman?

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It's an individual choice. Whatever makes the person feel more like themselves. I can't imagine feeling trapped in the wrong body. That's got to be the most terrible feeling. From the few friendships I've had with transgendered people (before a sex change) I'm quite certain it would be easier to change sex, than to change gender. I don't believe gender is changeable.

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JorgieGirl- what I am trying to dig at.. is WHY do they feel that way, it is the social contruct.. or is it an aborhance of their body part? Sounds like for this boy it some of both. In full reality you can NEVER change sex. You can cut off or add on body parts but they are not fully functional.

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I think, just like a person is born gay or straight, a person can be born female or male in gender but not in physical body. To be born with that feeling inside, of not relating to your physical body at all can make someone hate their genitalia. How this boy is feeling sounds normal for a transgendered youth. He was lucky to be born into (or adopted into) a family that is trying their hardest to help him feel normal. Since (and I think it's been mentioned here already) that nearly 50% of transgendered people attempt suicide. It's an even harder life than being homosexual and I'm sure no one would truly choose that path.

Does that answer it? I'm not at all college educated on this, but have strong feelings from personal life experiences. Sorry if I'm not the most clear.

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I agree that it's a very, very difficult situation and I do feel for those people. But I have a hard time with surgery as a "solution". It feels like the opposite of self-acceptance, and by that I don't mean they should just suck it up....they should find ways to explore their gender that don't involve that type of mutilation. Maybe it is in societal roles, and changing what is expected of men vs. women. I don't know. I don't have the answer. I just never like the idea of hormones & surgery being used to "fix" it, I hope for all of the people dealing with this that there is another way.

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"JorgieGirl" wrote:

I think, just like a person is born gay or straight, a person can be born female or male in gender but not in physical body. To be born with that feeling inside, of not relating to your physical body at all can make someone hate their genitalia. How this boy is feeling sounds normal for a transgendered youth. He was lucky to be born into (or adopted into) a family that is trying their hardest to help him feel normal. Since (and I think it's been mentioned here already) that nearly 50% of transgendered people attempt suicide. It's an even harder life than being homosexual and I'm sure no one would truly choose that path.

Does that answer it? I'm not at all college educated on this, but have strong feelings from personal life experiences. Sorry if I'm not the most clear.

You are making total sense. If someone is born "gay" or "straight" they are basing it on something outside themselves. They are basing it on the social norms of what gay or straight means. The definition is governed by what society you live in. SAME goes with Gender. The only way to know (if gender is just in your mind and not genitalia) what your gender is.. is to compare it with social norms.. what is a boy and what is a girl. I think the the gender ROLES were wider then we would have less of this.. My sex and gender are different. YOU WOULD not have abuse of people in this situation as a norm, and thus suicide wouldn't be because of the negatives they feel from society.

There are things people do or choose that are against society all the time, some are moral some immoral. The negatives society put on it don't usually eradicate the action. There are tons of examples of this.

So, is society wrong? Are the feelings wrong (necessitating change to match their gender to sex in some way? Or a bit of both?

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Ah, I see what you are saying, yes. I'd love to say society needs to change, but that's such a long, long time away, if ever. I look at the animal kingdom and 1500 species have been noted to having homosexual activity, but they don't suffer the same societal pressures as humans. That makes sense since they don't seem to be committing suicide over it. They just embrace it since it's not out of the norm. Makes me sad for our species.

Reminds me of that Douglas Adams quote: "Humans think that they’re smarter than dolphins because they’ve developed war, the atom bomb, and culture, while all dolphins do is swim around all day and have sex. Dolphins think that they’re smarter than humans for the exact same reasons."

I would love for transgendered people to find a way to be happy and 'at home' in their bodies without artificial hormones or surgery. I just don't think it's realistic for a lot of them.

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Differences between humans and animals is a difficult thing though. With the lack of social codes/mores morals, stigmas, manners, laws etc, come both negative and possitive. Animals are not prejudiced against certain things, they care more what their mate looks like or the house they weave than if the neighbor down the street is not mowing the grass. BUT they also care just as little about the lawn maintainance as they do about child abuse, cannibalism , bullying etc. They have almost no social structure compared to humans intricate and varied cultures. We are the only "animal" that even worries about if our thoughts are right or wrong. It is an interesting quote, but Dolphins do not think if they are smarter than us or not.. Fun quote though.

Many people in general will not be able to find a way to "be happy" in life. What is significant in that to me is maybe the mind should be altered to view life differently. We should help people that are struggling to find a way mentally to overcome the challanges they find within the confines of society. Sometimes society needs to change, sometimes our view of ourselves, and what it means to be happy needs to change. Sometimes we need to accept who we are, and stop being discontent. Be content with the brains you were given and stop striving for more more more, Be content with the body you were born with and stop judging your body against others, and want to be prettier, younger, older, stronger, thinner or a different gender all together.

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

Differences between humans and animals is a difficult thing though. With the lack of social codes/mores morals, stigmas, manners, laws etc, come both negative and possitive. Animals are not prejudiced against certain things, they care more what their mate looks like or the house they weave than if the neighbor down the street is not mowing the grass. BUT they also care just as little about the lawn maintainance as they do about child abuse, cannibalism , bullying etc. They have almost no social structure compared to humans intricate and varied cultures. We are the only "animal" that even worries about if our thoughts are right or wrong. It is an interesting quote, but Dolphins do not think if they are smarter than us or not.. Fun quote though.

Many people in general will not be able to find a way to "be happy" in life. What is significant in that to me is maybe the mind should be altered to view life differently. We should help people that are struggling to find a way mentally to overcome the challanges they find within the confines of society. Sometimes society needs to change, sometimes our view of ourselves, and what it means to be happy needs to change. Sometimes we need to accept who we are, and stop being discontent. Be content with the brains you were given and stop striving for more more more, Be content with the body you were born with and stop judging your body against others, and want to be prettier, younger, older, stronger, thinner or a different gender all together.

I think the bolded is a lovely statement and at the core has a good heart to it. But I think you are not understanding what it means to be transgendered. It's not just wanting something you don't have. It's not just about social acceptance driving ones belief and feeling about who they should be. These kids at a young age feel different. Even when growing up in a family who is accepting and loving and even before society has a chance to tell them they are different and make them feel different or wrong, they know.

When it comes to looks or age or weight, these are things that are typically based on outside perceptions. These are things where your point of view about yourself changes based on other people. In these cases I agree that people should be happy with themselves. But when you have something about yourself that effects the way you see the world and think and feel and who you are, regardless of how people see you, then I think it should be changed in order to be your best self. This child doesn't want to be a different gender, she wants to be who she is. She is a girl, so why if we have been blessed with the ability to fix a medical problem so she can be her true self should we not do that?

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Just had to post so I could hit 2500 Wink