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  1. #11
    Posting Addict GloriaInTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClairesMommy View Post
    I don't know about nursing homes in the US, but in Canada you will not find a patient on life support in a nursing home or palliative care facility. Palliative care is where people go to die, not to be kept artificially alive.
    I'm pretty sure there are people in nursing homes on life support equipment. Here is an example I found just with a simple search.

    If you are receiving skilled services or are on life-support equipment, the home health care provider is required to be on-call 24-hours a day, 7 days a week. Be sure the provider gives you their 24-hour phone number. If you are receiving only non-skilled services or equipment that is not life supporting, the provider should give you the phone number where you can call during regular service hours.
    Home Health Care in Florida | FloridaHealthFinder.gov
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacers View Post
    To answer the debate, I think it's a good thing. Death should not be a drawn-out procedure. Say goodbye and let them go. There is no sense in keeping a brain-dead body "alive" at the cost of millions of dollars.
    *Edited to be a tad nicer.*

    While I might personally agree with you, I can not in any way imagine thinking it was anyone else's business to decide whether or not someone's life is worth living. It might start out as only the brain dead, but how long does it take to move onto to anyone who is terminal to anyone that is severally handicapped to anyone who is not blond haired and blue eyed?

    Also, my mother is a nurse in a nursing home and there are many patients that are there for long term care. My uncle was in a persistent vegetative state for 2 years in a nursing home before he died.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    ETA: I love it that Bonita is reading Slate these days. Please tell me I had something to do with that! (I feel like half the articles I post here are from Slate.)
    Haha. It has nothing to do with me. I have some very politically minded friends on FB. They post articles on FB all the time. If I think it will make an interesting debate I try to bring it over here.
    Last edited by AlyssaEimers; 10-22-2013 at 07:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClairesMommy View Post
    I don't know about nursing homes in the US, but in Canada you will not find a patient on life support in a nursing home or palliative care facility. Palliative care is where people go to die, not to be kept artificially alive.
    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    I'm pretty sure there are people in nursing homes on life support equipment. Here is an example I found just with a simple search.
    Home Health Care in Florida | FloridaHealthFinder.gov
    Gloria, that is in Florida, last time I checked Florida is not a Canadian province as much as some Canadians would like. The most equipment that can be used in nursing homes in Canada is an IV.

    Why this subject is a little close to home.... my mom had Alzheimer's, September 2011 she had a series of strokes that left her pretty much in a vegetative state, she did not need any machines but could not move or talk, she was asleep pretty much all the time. I spent 2.5 hours with her and she opened her eyes for a few seconds, I live 4000 kim from the rest of my family. In May 2012 she had pneumonia, instructions were give to keep her comfortable but no life support (DNR). My sister left to go to her son's funeral. The doctors resuscitated against our wishes. She finally passed away last October 20th. From May to October it was pure h.e.l.l. on my family. This is in Ontario (and as much as some people from there think they are all of Canada, they are one province) where there are "death panels".

    BTW the title is misleading as the panels are only in Ontario, each province has different policies and procedures. Spending millions per year to keep someone who is brain dead alive is wrong. If you want to keep a brain dead patient alive you should have to pay for it personally.
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    Posting Addict ClairesMommy's Avatar
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    As long as we're talking about compassion, Bonita, would you be perfectly okay with a patient who has a living will and personal directive - all that stuff. They explicitly do NOT want to be kept alive by artificial means when their progressive illness or whatever prevents them from breathing on their own or they fall into a coma and are diagnosed as brain dead or non-recuperative. So, you're okay with the family going against the wishes of the patient, and keeping them on life support against their express written wishes? What if that was you? Don't you think under those circumstances (which are common, btw) that the 'death board' is a good thing? Seeing to it that the wishes of the patient are honoured? I do.
    Last edited by ClairesMommy; 10-22-2013 at 08:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClairesMommy View Post
    As long as we're talking about compassion, Bonita, would you be perfectly okay with a patient who has a living will and personal directive - all that stuff. They explicitly do NOT want to be kept alive by artificial means when their progressive illness or whatever prevents them from breathing on their own or they fall into a coma and are diagnosed as brain dead or non-recuperative. So, you're okay with the family going against the wishes of the patient, and keeping them on life support against their express written wishes? What if that was you? Don't you think under those circumstances (which are common, btw) that the 'death board' is a good thing? Seeing to it that the wishes of the patient are honoured? I do.
    I believe a living will should be honoured. The Government being able to go in and over ride family and and living will because they think that their care is too expensive is not ok in my opinion.

    ~Bonita~

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    I believe a living will should be honoured. The Government being able to go in and over ride family and and living will because they think that their care is too expensive is not ok in my opinion.
    Then it's a good thing that's not what this is about.

    Like the article states, this is about having an impartial ethical board who can give guidance when there is a dispute.

    These death panels are brilliant and I wish they were in every country.

    My mother-in-law, if she were in any other developed country, would be declared brain dead. She is in a persistent vegetative state, and has been since a massive stroke in May. She has told her kids and me in the past that she would never want to live this way. But my sister-in-law, who has no medical knowledge at all, thinks she will recover, despite having no higher brain function. It took 4 months to convince her to get a DNR. The hospitals in this country do not have any sort of ethical oversight and the doctors cannot even suggest that a patient be taken off of life support. If we were in Ontario, we would be able to grieve for her instead of watch her body waste away. She will die horribly of dehydration or pneumonia instead of with dignity. I wish we had access to a panel like this. Our societies spend too little time talking about end-of-life which is stupid because it will happen to everyone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacers View Post

    There is no sense in keeping a brain-dead body "alive" at the cost of millions of dollars.
    Quote Originally Posted by ClairesMommy View Post
    The cost of keeping (sp?) Rasouli 'alive' is approximately $1 million per year. That's taxpayer money.
    Quote Originally Posted by mom2robbie View Post
    If you want to keep a brain dead patient alive you should have to pay for it personally.
    Quote Originally Posted by blather View Post
    Then it's a good thing that's not what this is about.
    It seems to me that money and cost of care are exactly what this is about. Do you really want to come to come to a place where the Goverment comes in and says that your life is not worth living and you are costing too much? There is also nothing making this only for old brain dead people. That micro preemie? The baby that is born with Downs? (Sorry, I do not remember what we said was the pc term) Someone who was in a terrible accident like Joni Ericson Tada (sp)? That is just not a place that I think we ever should be.

    ~Bonita~

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    Prolific Poster ftmom's Avatar
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    I feel that the people against this, and those who are against socialism in general, really have little faith in their fellow human beings. This really isnt about money, and the board is instructed to not take cost of care into account. It only comes into play when the doctors and the family cannot agree about the treatment or lack thereof. The board is to take the patients well being into account, nobody elses. Personally I think it would be great to have someone impartial advocating for the patient. Families are often too emotional at these times to make an informed decision, and even Drs can be influenced by past experience, and there own interactions with the family and patient. But then, I actually trust other people to make good decisions and to be intelligent when they are put on a board like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClairesMommy View Post
    The cost of keeping (sp?) Rasouli 'alive' is approximately $1 million per year. That's taxpayer money. Sure, we contribute to a certain point, as we should, but the amount the taxpayers contribute to life support when the patient is deemed to be brain dead with no chance of recovery is finite.
    This a big reason that health insurance should be private.

    ~Bonita~

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    Quote Originally Posted by ftmom View Post
    I feel that the people against this, and those who are against socialism in general, really have little faith in their fellow human beings.
    When you have history like Natzi Germany, I am completely ok with not trusting the Goverment or a small board having complete control in deciding who lives and who dies. You are right though, it is a fundamental difference in beliefs. Some of the last few debates have made me very thankful that I live in the US and not Canada or Erupe. If socialism is the way you want to live, that's great. There are plenty of places for you. Please just don't try to for e America to become socialist.

    ~Bonita~

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