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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClairesMommy View Post
    Probably the same people who are against public health care.
    I do not believe so.

    ~Bonita~

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    I bet most of them like like their public police force and fire fighters and public schools and non-toll roads just fine. (To name a few of the horrors of socialism.)

    I think I've mentioned this before, but my aunt who is the biggest opponent to "SOCIALISM!!!!!" on my FB page works for the sheriff's department. Taxes literally pay her paycheck. Hilarious.
    I don't know anyone who considers law enforcement and fire fighters as socialism and not a basic function of government. That is what our taxes SHOULD be going for ... general safety and protection and infrastructure like roads and bridges ... not social programs.
    Last edited by GloriaInTX; 10-23-2013 at 03:41 PM.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    I think I've mentioned this before, but my aunt who is the biggest opponent to "SOCIALISM!!!!!" on my FB page works for the sheriff's department. Taxes literally pay her paycheck. Hilarious.
    Like I have said in the past, I think that balance is key. It is not necessary to be like "The Old West" and have no law and order at all. On the other hand, it is also not necessary to have the Government deciding who can live and who can die, control every aspect of your health care, keep a record of every conversation you have, among a variety of other extremes. I want the Government to provide law and order, reasonable laws and services in exchange for my tax dollars and otherwise stay out of my life. Unlike other who have posted, I do not trust the to ONLY decide to end life support for the brain dead. That line is so murky, it would not take long at all to become the **** Germany I was talking about earlier. It has happened before. What makes you think it would not happen again unless you took action to make sure the Government did not become powerful enough to do so. I have no interest in blindly giving the Government unchecked control over the country.

    ~Bonita~

  4. #34
    Posting Addict Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    I don't know anyone who considers law enforcement and fire fighters as socialism and not a basic function of government. That is what our taxes SHOULD be going for ... general safety and protection and infrastructure like roads and bridges ... not social programs.
    LOL The public police force and fire fighters are TOTALLY socialistic. Everyone who is able to pays in their taxes to the government and the government then makes this service available to everyone. It's not NOT socialism just because you think you hate socialism but you like those programs. If it were private sector, only those who could afford to pay out of pocket (or pay some sort of subscription service) would be able to get help from the police or the fire department. That's how the fire departments used to work, actually. Pretty awful. I agree with you that police departments and fire departments (and roads and schools and for that matter healthcare) should be a basic job of the government. It's still socialism, just a benefit of socialism that you happen to like.
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  5. #35
    Posting Addict Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    I have a hard time making the leap from socialized medicine (even when an ethics committee is enabled in some cases to look at indefinitely continuing care for brain dead individuals) to **** Germany. It reminds of those commercials where your cable is messed up, and this leads to a whole string of misfortunates culminating in you ending up in the witness protection program. "Don't end up in the witness protection program. Call Direct TV (or whoever it is) today!"

    ETA: I also wanted to add that if you think things are necessarily better under private insurance, I disagree. In the past (before Obamacare, oddly enough!) many insurance policies had a cap on maximum lifetime benefits. As you can imagine, having machines keep a brain dead individual alive is expensive. Sure, the insurance companies can't say "Pull the plug" but before Obama (thanks Obama!) they could say "Sorry, you've reached your max lifetime benefit so you can keep your loved one in the hospital, but we aren't paying for it." Which is kind of what people are saying here, right? If people want to prolong the "lives" of their family members who are braindead, they should pay for it themselves instead of having the tax payers pay for it. Of course, that may not be the case any more because of ACA. I assume those of you who think that people should be able to keep their loved ones on life support forever approve of that section of the ACA?
    Last edited by Alissa_Sal; 10-23-2013 at 04:15 PM.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    I have a hard time making the leap from socialized medicine (even when an ethics committee is enabled in some cases to look at indefinitely continuing care for brain dead individuals) to **** Germany. It reminds of those commercials where your cable is messed up, and this leads to a whole string of misfortunates culminating in you ending up in the witness protection program. "Don't end up in the witness protection program. Call Direct TV (or whoever it is) today!"
    I do not think it is a huge stretch from a board being able say that someone can be taken off life support because we think their life has no value and it is costing to much to doing the same to children with birth defects and other handicapped people.

    ~Bonita~

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    I do not think it is a huge stretch from a board being able say that someone can be taken off life support because we think their life has no value and it is costing to much to doing the same to children with birth defects and other handicapped people.
    I do. I think it's a pretty big stretch to go from no longer artificially keeping someone's body "alive" to actively killing a person who is able to stay alive without intervention. I don't think the slope is all that slippery.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    I do. I think it's a pretty big stretch to go from no longer artificially keeping someone's body "alive" to actively killing a person who is able to stay alive without intervention. I don't think the slope is all that slippery.
    A very premature baby is not able to stay alive without intervention. Many people who are in terrible accidents are not able to stay alive without intervention. Even I would have died a few weeks ago without medical intervention.

    ~Bonita~

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    A very premature baby is not able to stay alive without intervention. Many people who are in terrible accidents are not able to stay alive without intervention. Even I would have died a few weeks ago without medical intervention.
    I'm not arguing against medical interventions. I'm saying that a brain dead person is already dead, we are just keeping their body "alive." They're not getting better. You and the guy in the accident and the premature baby all have some hope of getting better. Once it has been determined that there is no (medically sound) hope, there is a difference between no longer articificially keeping someone's body alive and going out and killing people becaus they "don't value their lives." I think that terminology is really offensive, actually, by the way. I don't think it is at all about "not valuing someone's life" but more about recognizing when that life is already gone and trying to give that person some last peace and dignity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    While I might personally agree with you, I can not in any way imagine thinking it was anyone else's business to decide whether or not someone's life is worth living. It might start out as only the brain dead, but how long does it take to move onto to anyone who is terminal to anyone that is severally handicapped to anyone who is not blond haired and blue eyed?
    This is not a slippery slope. It's a very, very high cliff and I have no doubt at all that no one will be jumping off of it. This is not natzi Germany and, if you've read the history about it, you'd know that this is a much different world now and there is no way that is never going to happen again.
    And the fact is that other people *are* right now making those kinds of decisions. It’s judges because these kinds of disagreements, where there isn’t a so-called “death panel,” end up in courts. I'd actually rather have a team of independent doctors -- the people who know most about these conditions, the available treatments and comfort methods, and the prognoses -- making these decisions than uneducated judges -- who rely on briefs written mostly by biased parties -- and taking up precious court time that should be better used for other things.


    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    It seems to me that money and cost of care are exactly what this is about. Do you really want to come to come to a place where the Goverment comes in and says that your life is not worth living and you are costing too much? There is also nothing making this only for old brain dead people. That micro preemie? The baby that is born with Downs? (Sorry, I do not remember what we said was the pc term) Someone who was in a terrible accident like Joni Ericson Tada (sp)? That is just not a place that I think we ever should be.

    That is not what is going to happen, and it’s not what is happening here. This is not “The Government.” It’s an independent panel of doctors. Yes, I believe that brain-dead bodies should be allowed to become fully dead-dead. If you want your micro-preemie saved at all costs, including a lifetime of disability and pain, then go for it, but that’s not what I would have wanted for my family or my child. And if the medical interventions aren’t working, then I think the humane thing to do is to let your child die peacefully. When I was pregnant each time, we were asked what we wanted if our child was born early, and I don’t understand why that isn’t a standard question for every pregnant woman everywhere. And no one is advocating killing children with Down syndrome or paraplegics, and that’s not going to happen. See “not a slippery slope” above.
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