Canadian Death Panels - Page 7
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  1. #61
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    I agree with Gloria that it is hugely wasteful to keep someone on life support in an expensive hospital when a nursing home would work.

    ~Bonita~

  2. #62
    Posting Addict Spacers's Avatar
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    Why are you guys missing this part? Nursing homes in Canada WILL NOT TAKE a person on life support. Nursing homes in most states in the U.S. will not take a person on life support. You can not take home a person on life support unless you can hire a private team of registered nurses to take care of them 24/7 because the home health nurses provided by insurance will not touch a person on life support. And that equipment is very expensive to purchase. You're advocating a health care system where the wealthy get whatever they can afford and everyone else sucks donkey balls. I'd rather have reasonable, affordable health care for everyone, even if that means that sometimes a family has to say goodbye a bit earlier than they'd like to a loved one who has no chance of recovery and no chance of getting off of life support. Really, we treat our dying animals with more dignity than our dying family members. No one would leave a dog on life support for three years, not even your bestest pal in the whole wide world. You put him out of his misery when you found out that there was no hope. Why do we not do the same for the people we love even more than our pets????
    Last edited by Spacers; 10-24-2013 at 12:11 PM.
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  3. #63
    Posting Addict ClairesMommy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    That is the point. The government should not be involved (other than creating guidelines) in people's care. It should not be coming out of tax dollars so every random person thinks they have a say in their care.
    This panel is NOT a dept of the govt. It is an independent group made up of community members, among others. What don't you get about that? And what also don't you understand about patients on life support NOT going to nursing homes. It doesn't happen in Canada. It just DOESN'T. Did I miss something? We are talking about "Canadian Death Panels", aren't we?

    Jeez, my forehead is starting to hurt. I'm out.
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  4. #64
    Posting Addict GloriaInTX's Avatar
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    I understand nursing homes in Canada don't take people on life support. But maybe that should be changed. I don't see that as a good argument for taking someone off life support.

    Wealthy people in Canada still get whatever they can afford, they just bring them to the U.S. for treatment. I'm not sure where you find that nursing homes in the U.S. don't take people on life support. I'm sure not all do, but there are facilities that do that specifically.

    State Delays Evictions of 10 Patients : Health care: Agency rules that county did not give those at Rancho Los Amigos nursing home enough time to be placed in other facilities. - Los Angeles Times


    At various points in the process of recovery, persons in the minimally conscious or vegetative state may receive care in a wide range of settings. Initially, the person with severely impaired consciousness is most likely to be treated in an acute care hospital where the focus is primarily on saving his/her life and stabilizing him/her medically. Once that is achieved, the next focus is on recovery of function to whatever level is possible. Sometimes this happens in an acute rehabilitation hospital, which provides a high intensity program of rehabilitation services, including physical therapy, occupational therapy, speech and language therapy, recreational therapy, neuropsychological services and medical services.
    Some patients do not transition from the acute care hospital to an acute rehabilitation program. These people may go directly to a skilled nursing facility, a sub-acute rehabilitation program, a nursing home, or even home with family. Persons discharged from an acute rehabilitation program usually go to one of these places as well. Skilled nursing facilities, sub-acute rehabilitation programs, and nursing homes vary widely in the quantity and quality of medical management, nursing care, and rehabilitation therapy services they provide.
    Many factors influence decisions about where a person with severe impairment of consciousness or other severe impairments may go after discharge from the acute care hospital or discharge from the acute rehabilitation program. Some of these factors are the person’s medical condition, health insurance coverage and other benefits, the person’s ability to tolerate rehabilitation therapies, the doctor’s philosophy about where people should go to continue to recover after severe injuries, the family’s ability to care for the person at home, the family’s wishes, and practical matters such as that the distance the family has to travel to visit the person at the facility.
    The names used to describe levels of care and the settings in which they are provided, vary across the country. It is helpful to work with a social worker or case manager in the facility where your loved one is currently receiving services to plan whatever transitions are necessary. Do not be afraid to ask questions to make sure that you obtain the information you need to help you make the best possible decision.
    - See more at: Vegetative And Minimally Conscious States After Severe Brain Injury
    Last edited by GloriaInTX; 10-24-2013 at 01:24 PM.
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  5. #65
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    I spoke to my mother who is a LPN at a nursing home. She said there are many patients that are vegetables in her nursing home, but they would not be on a ventilator in a nursing home.

    I am not saying that is the way that it is in Canada, but that it is wasteful to keep that kind of patient in a hospital.

    ~Bonita~

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    Posting Addict Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    On a side note, I think it's odd that religious reasons would be cited for keeping someone's body hooked up to a machine to keep it alive after their brain is dead. Most religions believe in an afterlife I thought. If anyone were going to cling to life kicking and screaming like that, I would expect it to be an atheist since we don't believe that we are going on to our reward after we die. Personally, no, I absolutely hate the idea of my body being hooked up to machines to keep it alive after I'm gone, but still, death is absolutely final to atheists, and presumably far less so to theists. Interesting.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    On a side note, I think it's odd that religious reasons would be cited for keeping someone's body hooked up to a machine to keep it alive after their brain is dead. Most religions believe in an afterlife I thought. If anyone were going to cling to life kicking and screaming like that, I would expect it to be an atheist since we don't believe that we are going on to our reward after we die. Personally, no, I absolutely hate the idea of my body being hooked up to machines to keep it alive after I'm gone, but still, death is absolutely final to atheists, and presumably far less so to theists. Interesting.
    My mom and I were talking about this today. She said that the Catholics believe in keeping the body alive no matter what. My good friend felt that way about her mother before she died. I personally do not feel that way.

    ~Bonita~

  8. #68
    Prolific Poster ftmom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    That is the point. The government should not be involved (other than creating guidelines) in people's care. It should not be coming out of tax dollars so every random person thinks they have a say in their care.
    What I am not seeing an understanding of (forgive me if I am wrong) is that in Ontario this panel makes the final decision when the Dr's and family disagree, not every random person, but a committee. But in the states, and everywhere else in Canada it is a judge who makes the same decision. A judge, who is part of the judicial system, which is part of the government. A judge who doesnt have instructions to only consider the patients best interest, but who's job it is to take into account the interests of the rest of society, including who is paying for he services. So as far as I can see, the system elsewhere actually has more of the things you are against than this so called 'death panel' does.
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  9. #69
    Posting Addict GloriaInTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ftmom View Post
    What I am not seeing an understanding of (forgive me if I am wrong) is that in Ontario this panel makes the final decision when the Dr's and family disagree, not every random person, but a committee. But in the states, and everywhere else in Canada it is a judge who makes the same decision. A judge, who is part of the judicial system, which is part of the government. A judge who doesnt have instructions to only consider the patients best interest, but who's job it is to take into account the interests of the rest of society, including who is paying for he services. So as far as I can see, the system elsewhere actually has more of the things you are against than this so called 'death panel' does.
    In the states if the doctors make that decision the family can move them to another facility.

    Family fights to keep teen alive as hospital decides to end life support | khou.com Houston
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  10. #70
    Prolific Poster ftmom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    In the states if the doctors make that decision the family can move them to another facility.

    Family fights to keep teen alive as hospital decides to end life support | khou.com Houston
    And what happens if they cant afford to move him? Or they cant find a facility that will continue treatment? Or they dont have insurance and cant afford to pay for treatment?

    I mean sure. If the family in the original post could afford to, they could outfit a room in their house with medical equipment, hire a nurse and pay to have the patient brought home and pay to have him kept alive. I assume they cant afford that as it is not brought up as an option, and the majority of people cant. As you have pointed out hey could also take him to the US for treatment, again, not affordable.

    This man has been kept alive on life support for 3 years at minimal cost to his family (no more than if he was fully functioning, not in hospital). They have now come to a time where they might need to make a decision to say goodbye or find a different, but very expensive option to keep him alive. I fail to see how this is worse than families who dont have money or insurance and find themselves in a similar situation under the US system. They would be on the line to pay for his treatment for the last 3 years, and then if the hospital decided to discontinue treatment, they would still have to either say goodbye or find a more expensive alternative. The other choice would be to take the hospital to court and allow a judge to decide.

    You keep saying you dont want money to play into it and add to the decision, but because of public health care this family has had 3 years to try different therapies, visit with the patient, say what they need to say before money even came into it, and it still hasnt come down to money. They still have this board to appeal to!
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    Kyla
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