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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    To the people here, the confederate flag is not about hatred. It is about where they came from. That would be like saying a German person could not fly a German flag because they are ashamed of the holocaust. Germany is so much more than just that one aspect of their past. The South is also so much more than just slavery. Banning the confederate flag is equivalent to forbidding any history of an entire generation of our past.
    No, it wouldn't be like saying that at all. I don't associate the German flag with the Holocaust. I associate the Na.zi flag with that. If I understand correctly, are you saying NOT flying the Confederate flag means you are ashamed of the Civil War?

    I understand the POV that the Confederate flag only stands for slavery, but that is a very Northern POV. I do not believe that most people here think of it that way. (Obviously I have not met and spoke to every single Southerner. Just speaking of the people I do know) It would be the equivalent of saying that because Americans acted shamefully with the forced internment camps for the Japanese Americans during WW2, that we should never again fly an American flag. The American flag stands for an entire country and years of history. Not just one aspect of that history. It is the same with the Confederate flag.
    It's not just a "Northern POV." The Confederate flag doesn't encompass and an entire country over hundreds of years. It is a very specific time period - approximately 5 years during which time the states left the Union and formed their own alliance to defend their right to have slavery.

    But, why would it matter if it is just a Northern POV? The student in question is in New Jersey. And whether or not he has a "right" to have it depends on where he is. As I said before, out here - no way. If he were in Florida, may or may not be a problem.

    I thought of this debate as I took my daughters to piano lessons today. I passed a few different Confederate flags. I do not believe their intent is to show anything other than Southern pride. Also, the piano lessons are in GA (We live right on the TN/GA line), and the Confederate flag and the State of GA flag are very similar to the first Confederate flag.

    Now I will say that unfortunately there are also some truly racist people out there. That is a tragedy. I am sure that there are some of these people that do use the Confederate flag in a hateful way. They are not the majority though. A minority. I think another example would be a school banning anyone from wearing the color red because that was a local gang's colors. Wearing red is not inherently bad, but a few people put their twist on it and made it their symbol.
    You're trying to trivialize the meaning of the flag. I can put a positive spin on the color red. I just can't do that with the Confederate flag. It represents a period of history that I can't be proud of.

    Anyway, I was in Georgia in late 1993. There was a big push to change the flag for the upcoming 1996 summer Olympics. I asked our host family, who was trying to have the flag changed. The response? "The ni****"

    I looked up the flag...I find it very interesting that the flag that resembles the Confederate flag was used from 1956 - 2001. A year after Rosa Parks was arrested in Alabama. So I don't buy that it's *just* a pride thing.
    Last edited by ethanwinfield; 03-29-2014 at 12:58 AM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ethanwinfield View Post
    No, it wouldn't be like saying that at all. I don't associate the German flag with the Holocaust. I associate the Na.zi flag with that. If I understand correctly, are you saying NOT flying the Confederate flag means you are ashamed of the Civil War?

    *No that is not what I mean. I will try to explain better below*

    It's not just a "Northern POV." The Confederate flag doesn't encompass and an entire country over hundreds of years. It is a very specific time period - approximately 5 years during which time the states left the Union and formed their own alliance to defend their right to have slavery.

    *To defend their right to make their own choices. Whether that means to have slaves, own guns, gay marriage, ban abortions or any number of things that the States disagree on. To have the States be independent. At the time slaves was the main issue at stake, but there are still many issues that people think should be up to the States and not the federal government.*


    But, why would it matter if it is just a Northern POV? The student in question is in New Jersey. And whether or not he has a "right" to have it depends on where he is. As I said before, out here - no way. If he were in Florida, may or may not be a problem.

    *My point was not that this particular boy should not be able to have the flag. You would have to be there and know the situation to know his intent. My point was that the Confederate flag is not inherently bad.*

    You're trying to trivialize the meaning of the flag. I can put a positive spin on the color red. I just can't do that with the Confederate flag. It represents a period of history that I can't be proud of.

    Anyway, I was in Georgia in late 1993. There was a big push to change the flag for the upcoming 1996 summer Olympics. I asked our host family, who was trying to have the flag changed. The response? "The ni****"

    I looked up the flag...I find it very interesting that the flag that resembles the Confederate flag was used from 1956 - 2001. A year after Rosa Parks was arrested in Alabama. So I don't buy that it's *just* a pride thing.
    *See more above*

    I disagree that there is nothing positive in the Confederate flag. Slavery was only one aspect of Southern life. There was a vast culture that was beautiful. (Again not the slavery) That the Confederate flag only stands for slavery is a Northern POV. I can tell you that most people here do not think of it that way. Let me try to think of another example. Some homosexuals have adopted the rainbow as their symbol. A rainbow means something very different to a lot of people. So does a rainbow always everywhere mean homosexual? No, it means different things to different people. There are some people that have taken the Confederate flag to represent some horrible things. Such as the KKK. However there are a great many people that to them the Confederate flag is a symbol of their Southern heritage.
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    ~Bonita~

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    Bonita - I totally agree with you.. but would not have 5 years ago. We finished up studying Civil War at home.. it was NOT primarily about Slavery.. in fact General Lee was Anti-Slavery.. and guess who owned slaves.. um.. Lincoln.. interesting..
    It was primarily about who has the power.. is it the states primarily or the Union. that was the point.. the Civil War decided some of the issues..

    However others are still not solved.. IE marijuana issue is an interesting one.. as Federal Law is supposed to trump State law, and State law can only be stricter than Federal Law.. but now in some states it is legal but federally it is illegal..

    This and many other issues cause a general feeling of unease and distention between the federal government and the states.. and people will have to choose whose authority they want to be under. It was the decision Lee had to make.. He served in the US military before the War and Lincoln wanted him in charge of the military on the Union side but he refused because his heart belonged to his state first then the federal government.... in the end when the North won.. he was sad that the South lost but glad Slavery lost... in simple terms .
    DH-Aug 30th 1997 Josiah - 6/3/02 Isaac 7/31/03

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    Ok back to the OP more - One should be able to drive whatever vehicle they want to drive to school.. if it is wrong to have a flag on the vehicle or painted on the side of the vehicle.. then let the local authorities deal with it. It is not in the school. How can it really distract learning.. it is outside. Teachers and admin need to focus on more important things..
    DH-Aug 30th 1997 Josiah - 6/3/02 Isaac 7/31/03

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    I think you are missing the fact that the Confederate flag was designed and used solely during that period of time. They didn't adopt an existing flag or symbol that already represented the Southern way of life (slavery). They created one. The South is no longer a part of the Confederate States of America. It is part of the UNITED States of America.

    No American should be *proud* of the Civil War. And to say that the Confederate flag encompasses the entire South and a symbol of Sourhern pride does just that.
    freddieflounder101 likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ethanwinfield View Post
    No American should be *proud* of the Civil War. And to say that the Confederate flag encompasses the entire South and a symbol of Sourhern pride does just that.
    Not being proud of the Civil War, but being proud of the South. Your attitude is more of a "You lost, so you have to forget everything you ever were POV". Let me try to think of another example. Say a child is taken from her home and put in foster care. They want to go back to their parents but social services says no and terminates the parents rights and puts them up for adoption. The adoptive parents then want to change their last name. The child wanting to keep their last name to remember who they were.
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    ~Bonita~

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    Quote Originally Posted by ethanwinfield View Post
    I think you are missing the fact that the Confederate flag was designed and used solely during that period of time. They didn't adopt an existing flag or symbol that already represented the Southern way of life (slavery). They created one. The South is no longer a part of the Confederate States of America. It is part of the UNITED States of America.

    No American should be *proud* of the Civil War. And to say that the Confederate flag encompasses the entire South and a symbol of Sourhern pride does just that.
    I understand what you are saying.. I would have agreed with you 5 years ago.. I disagree now after doing research and teaching Civil War History.
    DH-Aug 30th 1997 Josiah - 6/3/02 Isaac 7/31/03

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivergallery View Post
    Ok back to the OP more - One should be able to drive whatever vehicle they want to drive to school.. if it is wrong to have a flag on the vehicle or painted on the side of the vehicle.. then let the local authorities deal with it. It is not in the school. How can it really distract learning.. it is outside. Teachers and admin need to focus on more important things..
    Well, if the admin has legitimate concern for the car getting vandalized or the owner of the car getting jumped, he/she has a duty to do try to prevent that from happening. Freedom of speech (including symbolic) is not absolute when it comes to the school setting.

    With regards to the Confederate flag, it truly depends on the demographics of the school and larger community.

    Just because it is in the parking lot doesn't automatically mean is isn't distracting the learning process. If a (presumably) white student showed up with that at several of our local high schools, some students would be planning when and where they would be meeting up. Other students would be spreading the details. Others would be rallying around the student. So yeah, even though it's in the "parking lot" it's distracting the learning process.

    I completely agree with the Tinker decision which is why I don't believe it is an all-or-nothing situation. I don't know the demographics or culture of where this happened (other than NJ). So I don't know whether his suspension was justified due to a larger threat to the learning process or not.

    It isn't always what it is, sometimes it's how it is used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    Not being proud of the Civil War, but being proud of the South. Your attitude is more of a "You lost, so you have to forget everything you ever were POV". Let me try to think of another example. Say a child is taken from her home and put in foster care. They want to go back to their parents but social services says no and terminates the parents rights and puts them up for adoption. The adoptive parents then want to change their last name. The child wanting to keep their last name to remember who they were.
    Nope. I just don't think the symbol of Southern pride should be a flag used during the darkest point in our nation's history. It's not like the flag as a symbol of Southern pride was consistent from the Civil War until now; it regained its popularity around the 1950s. Coincidentally, when court decisions and civil rights movements posed a threat to the "Southern way of life."

    One's last name isn't the only way to remember who you are. Many women still drop their last name when they marry and give their children the father's surname. I am no less connected to my mom's side of the family than my dad's solely because we don't share a last name. I've had three last names; none of which have changed who I am or where I came from.

    Will not using the Confederate flag change the meaning of Southern pride? I am told it is so much more than the flag. If so, it shouldn't matter. On the flip-side, then why should it matter if they use the Confederate flag? Because it means so much more than just "Southern pride." For some, it represents hatred and racism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ethanwinfield View Post
    I think you are missing the fact that the Confederate flag was designed and used solely during that period of time. They didn't adopt an existing flag or symbol that already represented the Southern way of life (slavery). They created one. The South is no longer a part of the Confederate States of America. It is part of the UNITED States of America.

    No American should be *proud* of the Civil War. And to say that the Confederate flag encompasses the entire South and a symbol of Sourhern pride does just that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivergallery View Post
    I understand what you are saying.. I would have agreed with you 5 years ago.. I disagree now after doing research and teaching Civil War History.
    Which part do you disagree with?

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