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Confedertate Flag

Teen: Suspended for Confederate flag on truck - New York News

Sorry, I can't copy the article from my Kindle. Basically a teenager was suspended for having a Confederate flag on his truck. Right or wrong decision by the school?

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"Them trying to make me take it down is unconstitutional," Vied said.

He is mistaken.

Vied's three-day suspension was cut to one day after the ACLU sent a letter to the principal stating that school officials would have to prove the banned speech would "materially and substantially" disrupt operations at the school.

Even the ACLU concedes that having the flag on his car may be unconstitutional.

I don't know the demographics of his area, but where I live and work, the Confederate flag is nothing more than symbolic hate speech. the Tinker test would show a clear justification for banning it.

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When I lived in NY I though Southerners who had a Confederate flag were trying to be hateful. Now that I have lived in the South for 14 years I realise that is not the case. It is a symbol of the South. Like sweat tea and fried chicken. That time in our history did happen. Lots of people died and it is a huge part of the culture here. I personally know many people who are in support of the Confederate flag that would be strongly against slavery. It simply is not a racist symbols here. Let me try to find another way to explain. I know someone who is from Ohio. He is a huge Buckeyes fan. If someone talks about Ohio he cheers. That just means he is proud of where he is from. Not that he hates everyone else. No different than Americans singing Good bless America and caring an American flag. You are saying that you are proud of where you are from. Not that you hate everyone else.

I will say that I did not understand this growing up. I clearly remember my fifth great teacher telling the class that Southerners still thought the civil war was still being fought. That is not what the Confederate flag is about anymore.

All of that said, I do believe that schools should be able to make whatever rules they deem necessary. Not knowing this boy personally, he may have met it in a bullying or hateful way. I do not think though that the Confederate flag is inherently bad. It is a very common sight around here. Much of the civil war was fought here. There are many parks and battlefields. They are not all from only a Northerners point of view.

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I was unaware the Buckeyes had a history of hatred.

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The school has a right to ask him to remove it if it is disrupting the learning process for others.

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Does this kid (as well as a bunch of people you know) realize what this represents? Why did this flag exist in the first place? Why is this something you want to use to stand for your pride?

In order to show that we are proud of an area we are from or our heritage, the best representation of that is one that reflects hate towards others? I mean, I know I think "slavery" every time I see it. There is a stigma attached to that flag just as there is a stigma attached swastikas and KKK hoods.

This kid is from New Jersey, what southern heritage is he speaking of anyway? When did New Jersey become the south?

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So I guess Bo and Luke Duke would be suspended these days for driving the General Lee to school.

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Possibly. That car could clearly be deemed a distraction to learning.

And of course Daisy's shorts too.

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"ethanwinfield" wrote:

I was unaware the Buckeyes had a history of hatred.

To the people here, the confederate flag is not about hatred. It is about where they came from. That would be like saying a German person could not fly a German flag because they are ashamed of the holocaust. Germany is so much more than just that one aspect of their past. The South is also so much more than just slavery. Banning the confederate flag is equivalent to forbidding any history of an entire generation of our past.

I understand the POV that the Confederate flag only stands for slavery, but that is a very Northern POV. I do not believe that most people here think of it that way. (Obviously I have not met and spoke to every single Southerner. Just speaking of the people I do know) It would be the equivalent of saying that because Americans acted shamefully with the forced internment camps for the Japanese Americans during WW2, that we should never again fly an American flag. The American flag stands for an entire country and years of history. Not just one aspect of that history. It is the same with the Confederate flag.

I thought of this debate as I took my daughters to piano lessons today. I passed a few different Confederate flags. I do not believe their intent is to show anything other than Southern pride. Also, the piano lessons are in GA (We live right on the TN/GA line), and the Confederate flag and the State of GA flag are very similar to the first Confederate flag.

Now I will say that unfortunately there are also some truly racist people out there. That is a tragedy. I am sure that there are some of these people that do use the Confederate flag in a hateful way. They are not the majority though. A minority. I think another example would be a school banning anyone from wearing the color red because that was a local gang's colors. Wearing red is not inherently bad, but a few people put their twist on it and made it their symbol.

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I also wanted to add that there are still a great many people here who believe that the States should be able to make their own decisions. (Not that Slavery is right, obviously that is a terrible awful thing) That the Federal Government should just leave them alone to govern themselves. I think you would find many people in both the North and the South that would feel that way. The Confederate flag is also a symbol of this. Of the States having the right to govern themselves without outside interference.

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

To the people here, the confederate flag is not about hatred. It is about where they came from. That would be like saying a German person could not fly a German flag because they are ashamed of the holocaust. Germany is so much more than just that one aspect of their past. The South is also so much more than just slavery. Banning the confederate flag is equivalent to forbidding any history of an entire generation of our past.

No, it wouldn't be like saying that at all. I don't associate the German flag with the Holocaust. I associate the Na.zi flag with that. If I understand correctly, are you saying NOT flying the Confederate flag means you are ashamed of the Civil War?

I understand the POV that the Confederate flag only stands for slavery, but that is a very Northern POV. I do not believe that most people here think of it that way. (Obviously I have not met and spoke to every single Southerner. Just speaking of the people I do know) It would be the equivalent of saying that because Americans acted shamefully with the forced internment camps for the Japanese Americans during WW2, that we should never again fly an American flag. The American flag stands for an entire country and years of history. Not just one aspect of that history. It is the same with the Confederate flag.

It's not just a "Northern POV." The Confederate flag doesn't encompass and an entire country over hundreds of years. It is a very specific time period - approximately 5 years during which time the states left the Union and formed their own alliance to defend their right to have slavery.

But, why would it matter if it is just a Northern POV? The student in question is in New Jersey. And whether or not he has a "right" to have it depends on where he is. As I said before, out here - no way. If he were in Florida, may or may not be a problem.

I thought of this debate as I took my daughters to piano lessons today. I passed a few different Confederate flags. I do not believe their intent is to show anything other than Southern pride. Also, the piano lessons are in GA (We live right on the TN/GA line), and the Confederate flag and the State of GA flag are very similar to the first Confederate flag.

Now I will say that unfortunately there are also some truly racist people out there. That is a tragedy. I am sure that there are some of these people that do use the Confederate flag in a hateful way. They are not the majority though. A minority. I think another example would be a school banning anyone from wearing the color red because that was a local gang's colors. Wearing red is not inherently bad, but a few people put their twist on it and made it their symbol.

You're trying to trivialize the meaning of the flag. I can put a positive spin on the color red. I just can't do that with the Confederate flag. It represents a period of history that I can't be proud of.

Anyway, I was in Georgia in late 1993. There was a big push to change the flag for the upcoming 1996 summer Olympics. I asked our host family, who was trying to have the flag changed. The response? "The ni****"

I looked up the flag...I find it very interesting that the flag that resembles the Confederate flag was used from 1956 - 2001. A year after Rosa Parks was arrested in Alabama. So I don't buy that it's *just* a pride thing.

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"ethanwinfield" wrote:

No, it wouldn't be like saying that at all. I don't associate the German flag with the Holocaust. I associate the Na.zi flag with that. If I understand correctly, are you saying NOT flying the Confederate flag means you are ashamed of the Civil War?

*No that is not what I mean. I will try to explain better below*

It's not just a "Northern POV." The Confederate flag doesn't encompass and an entire country over hundreds of years. It is a very specific time period - approximately 5 years during which time the states left the Union and formed their own alliance to defend their right to have slavery.

*To defend their right to make their own choices. Whether that means to have slaves, own guns, gay marriage, ban abortions or any number of things that the States disagree on. To have the States be independent. At the time slaves was the main issue at stake, but there are still many issues that people think should be up to the States and not the federal government.*

But, why would it matter if it is just a Northern POV? The student in question is in New Jersey. And whether or not he has a "right" to have it depends on where he is. As I said before, out here - no way. If he were in Florida, may or may not be a problem.

*My point was not that this particular boy should not be able to have the flag. You would have to be there and know the situation to know his intent. My point was that the Confederate flag is not inherently bad.*

You're trying to trivialize the meaning of the flag. I can put a positive spin on the color red. I just can't do that with the Confederate flag. It represents a period of history that I can't be proud of.

Anyway, I was in Georgia in late 1993. There was a big push to change the flag for the upcoming 1996 summer Olympics. I asked our host family, who was trying to have the flag changed. The response? "The ni****"

I looked up the flag...I find it very interesting that the flag that resembles the Confederate flag was used from 1956 - 2001. A year after Rosa Parks was arrested in Alabama. So I don't buy that it's *just* a pride thing.

*See more above*

I disagree that there is nothing positive in the Confederate flag. Slavery was only one aspect of Southern life. There was a vast culture that was beautiful. (Again not the slavery) That the Confederate flag only stands for slavery is a Northern POV. I can tell you that most people here do not think of it that way. Let me try to think of another example. Some homosexuals have adopted the rainbow as their symbol. A rainbow means something very different to a lot of people. So does a rainbow always everywhere mean homosexual? No, it means different things to different people. There are some people that have taken the Confederate flag to represent some horrible things. Such as the KKK. However there are a great many people that to them the Confederate flag is a symbol of their Southern heritage.

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Bonita - I totally agree with you.. but would not have 5 years ago. We finished up studying Civil War at home.. it was NOT primarily about Slavery.. in fact General Lee was Anti-Slavery.. and guess who owned slaves.. um.. Lincoln.. interesting..
It was primarily about who has the power.. is it the states primarily or the Union. that was the point.. the Civil War decided some of the issues..

However others are still not solved.. IE marijuana issue is an interesting one.. as Federal Law is supposed to trump State law, and State law can only be stricter than Federal Law.. but now in some states it is legal but federally it is illegal..

This and many other issues cause a general feeling of unease and distention between the federal government and the states.. and people will have to choose whose authority they want to be under. It was the decision Lee had to make.. He served in the US military before the War and Lincoln wanted him in charge of the military on the Union side but he refused because his heart belonged to his state first then the federal government.... in the end when the North won.. he was sad that the South lost but glad Slavery lost... in simple terms ;).

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Ok back to the OP more - One should be able to drive whatever vehicle they want to drive to school.. if it is wrong to have a flag on the vehicle or painted on the side of the vehicle.. then let the local authorities deal with it. It is not in the school. How can it really distract learning.. it is outside. Teachers and admin need to focus on more important things..

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I think you are missing the fact that the Confederate flag was designed and used solely during that period of time. They didn't adopt an existing flag or symbol that already represented the Southern way of life (slavery). They created one. The South is no longer a part of the Confederate States of America. It is part of the UNITED States of America.

No American should be *proud* of the Civil War. And to say that the Confederate flag encompasses the entire South and a symbol of Sourhern pride does just that.

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"ethanwinfield" wrote:

No American should be *proud* of the Civil War. And to say that the Confederate flag encompasses the entire South and a symbol of Sourhern pride does just that.

Not being proud of the Civil War, but being proud of the South. Your attitude is more of a "You lost, so you have to forget everything you ever were POV". Let me try to think of another example. Say a child is taken from her home and put in foster care. They want to go back to their parents but social services says no and terminates the parents rights and puts them up for adoption. The adoptive parents then want to change their last name. The child wanting to keep their last name to remember who they were.

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"ethanwinfield" wrote:

I think you are missing the fact that the Confederate flag was designed and used solely during that period of time. They didn't adopt an existing flag or symbol that already represented the Southern way of life (slavery). They created one. The South is no longer a part of the Confederate States of America. It is part of the UNITED States of America.

No American should be *proud* of the Civil War. And to say that the Confederate flag encompasses the entire South and a symbol of Sourhern pride does just that.

I understand what you are saying.. I would have agreed with you 5 years ago.. I disagree now after doing research and teaching Civil War History.

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

Ok back to the OP more - One should be able to drive whatever vehicle they want to drive to school.. if it is wrong to have a flag on the vehicle or painted on the side of the vehicle.. then let the local authorities deal with it. It is not in the school. How can it really distract learning.. it is outside. Teachers and admin need to focus on more important things..

Well, if the admin has legitimate concern for the car getting vandalized or the owner of the car getting jumped, he/she has a duty to do try to prevent that from happening. Freedom of speech (including symbolic) is not absolute when it comes to the school setting.

With regards to the Confederate flag, it truly depends on the demographics of the school and larger community.

Just because it is in the parking lot doesn't automatically mean is isn't distracting the learning process. If a (presumably) white student showed up with that at several of our local high schools, some students would be planning when and where they would be meeting up. Other students would be spreading the details. Others would be rallying around the student. So yeah, even though it's in the "parking lot" it's distracting the learning process.

I completely agree with the Tinker decision which is why I don't believe it is an all-or-nothing situation. I don't know the demographics or culture of where this happened (other than NJ). So I don't know whether his suspension was justified due to a larger threat to the learning process or not.

It isn't always what it is, sometimes it's how it is used.

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

Not being proud of the Civil War, but being proud of the South. Your attitude is more of a "You lost, so you have to forget everything you ever were POV". Let me try to think of another example. Say a child is taken from her home and put in foster care. They want to go back to their parents but social services says no and terminates the parents rights and puts them up for adoption. The adoptive parents then want to change their last name. The child wanting to keep their last name to remember who they were.

Nope. I just don't think the symbol of Southern pride should be a flag used during the darkest point in our nation's history. It's not like the flag as a symbol of Southern pride was consistent from the Civil War until now; it regained its popularity around the 1950s. Coincidentally, when court decisions and civil rights movements posed a threat to the "Southern way of life."

One's last name isn't the only way to remember who you are. Many women still drop their last name when they marry and give their children the father's surname. I am no less connected to my mom's side of the family than my dad's solely because we don't share a last name. I've had three last names; none of which have changed who I am or where I came from.

Will not using the Confederate flag change the meaning of Southern pride? I am told it is so much more than the flag. If so, it shouldn't matter. On the flip-side, then why should it matter if they use the Confederate flag? Because it means so much more than just "Southern pride." For some, it represents hatred and racism.

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"ethanwinfield" wrote:

I think you are missing the fact that the Confederate flag was designed and used solely during that period of time. They didn't adopt an existing flag or symbol that already represented the Southern way of life (slavery). They created one. The South is no longer a part of the Confederate States of America. It is part of the UNITED States of America.

No American should be *proud* of the Civil War. And to say that the Confederate flag encompasses the entire South and a symbol of Sourhern pride does just that.

"Rivergallery" wrote:

I understand what you are saying.. I would have agreed with you 5 years ago.. I disagree now after doing research and teaching Civil War History.

Which part do you disagree with?

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I agree; it depends on how it is used.

If I went to work one day and saw a Confederate flag at someone's desk, I would be very uncomfortable. I presume that all the black people in the office would feel the same way.

There are lovely traditions from the South that have nothing to do with the Confederacy. There's a tradition of food, I think some of the country's best writers have come from there. It was and is a rich culture. But you can celebrate that without being threatening to others, and I think it should matter to you to do so.

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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

There are lovely traditions from the South that have nothing to do with the Confederacy. There's a tradition of food, I think some of the country's best writers have come from there. It was and is a rich culture. But you can celebrate that without being threatening to others, and I think it should matter to you to do so.

I will agree it will depend on context. In NY if I were to see a Confederate flag I would think it was a bit odd. Here, I would think nothing at all of seeing a Confederate flag. It is a normal part of life here.

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"ethanwinfield" wrote:

Well, if the admin has legitimate concern for the car getting vandalized or the owner of the car getting jumped, he/she has a duty to do try to prevent that from happening. Freedom of speech (including symbolic) is not absolute when it comes to the school setting.

With regards to the Confederate flag, it truly depends on the demographics of the school and larger community.

Just because it is in the parking lot doesn't automatically mean is isn't distracting the learning process. If a (presumably) white student showed up with that at several of our local high schools, some students would be planning when and where they would be meeting up. Other students would be spreading the details. Others would be rallying around the student. So yeah, even though it's in the "parking lot" it's distracting the learning process.

I completely agree with the Tinker decision which is why I don't believe it is an all-or-nothing situation. I don't know the demographics or culture of where this happened (other than NJ). So I don't know whether his suspension was justified due to a larger threat to the learning process or not.

It isn't always what it is, sometimes it's how it is used.

If they were concerned with the vehicle being vandalized or the child being "jumped" they suspend them? I still say things outside school should not be cause for suspension.. inside sure outside nope.. not even drug use or violent activity.. leave that to the police. If you are worried for their safety or view it as a hate crime call the cops.. talk to the parents.. or leave it alone. Grow a pair.. seriously.. are we not free to have different ideas.. even it is freedom to "hate" though I disagree that flying this flag alone indicates hate. We allow people to burn our own US flag, but they can't fly this one?.. What??

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

If they were concerned with the vehicle being vandalized or the child being "jumped" they suspend them? I still say things outside school should not be cause for suspension.. inside sure outside nope.. not even drug use or violent activity.. leave that to the police. If you are worried for their safety or view it as a hate crime call the cops.. talk to the parents.. or leave it alone. Grow a pair.. seriously.. are we not free to have different ideas.. even it is freedom to "hate" though I disagree that flying this flag alone indicates hate. We allow people to burn our own US flag, but they can't fly this one?.. What??

Well I think the school might have a say in what's on school property if it's disruptive. I think every situation is different. But if a kid had a swastika on his car, I'd expect the school to demand that it stay out of the parking lot.

If a kid had a picture of a burning American flag on his car, same issue.

So Confederate flag raises the same issues.

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

If they were concerned with the vehicle being vandalized or the child being "jumped" they suspend them?

A New Jersey high school student says he was suspended from school after refusing to remove a Confederate flag on his truck.

He wasn't suspended for having it. He was suspended for refusing to remove it.

I still say things outside school should not be cause for suspension.. inside sure outside nope.. not even drug use or violent activity.. leave that to the police. If you are worried for their safety or view it as a hate crime call the cops.. talk to the parents.. or leave it alone. Grow a pair.. seriously.. ?

Okay...parking on school property falls under the jurisdiction of the school.

When it comes to schools, the laws are different - I can legally buy and posses cigarettes. However, I cannot have them on school property. If I worked just about anywhere else, I could have cigarettes in my car and park on company property.

There are crimes that are fall under both. If a student has an illegal substance on school grounds, he/she can be suspended AND face criminal charges.

Just curious: At your place of employment (any place of employment past or present), if you committed a crime at work, wouldn't you face both criminal consequences and employment consequences?

are we not free to have different ideas.. even it is freedom to "hate" though I disagree that flying this flag alone indicates hate. We allow people to burn our own US flag, but they can't fly this one?.. What?

Again, this is at a school. Yes, we have the right to fly the Confederate flag and burn the US flag. Do you really think burning the US flag on school property would be without consequences?

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Controversial topic/ Abortion Mentioned

I know this post might bother some, so please feel free to skip past it.

I just drove past a Confederate Flag on my way to and from a book store and it made me think of this debate more. I believe abortion is every bit as wrong/horrible as slavery and that it is a very dark part of our history. (I know you all do not agree, but that is my opinion) There are many, many people that agree with me. If the tide was ever turned and abortion was abolished, would your entire history be defined by that one controversial subject? Would you want your fight to make your own laws to not be remembered? Would you stop being American because what was once accepted and considered normal was no longer accepted?

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Confederate flags are common in Texas and I wouldn't think twice if I saw someone with one or even wearing a bandana or something with a Confederate flag. I think that people make way too much of it and this kid probably grew up somewhere where it wasn't a big deal. People here would not link it with slavery at all.

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

I know this post might bother some, so please feel free to skip past it.

I just drove past a Confederate Flag on my way to and from a book store and it made me think of this debate more. I believe abortion is every bit as wrong/horrible as slavery and that it is a very dark part of our history. (I know you all do not agree, but that is my opinion) There are many, many people that agree with me. If the tide was ever turned and abortion was abolished, would your entire history be defined by that one controversial subject? Would you want your fight to make your own laws to not be remembered? Would you stop being American because what was once accepted and considered normal was no longer accepted?

Is there a "symbol" for abortion that people display? Is there anyone who's PROUD of abortion? Even people who get abortions aren't proud of them. Even those of us who are pro-choice think abortions are a tragedy. It's not a comparison that really works.

I am pro-choice but not pro-abortion. I don't advocate abortion. I'm not proud that people get them although I have held friends' hands through it all. It's not even close.

I don't understand being proud of the Confederacy. I understand being proud of your rich Southern culture. What's wrong with displaying your state flag instead?

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I have a lot of family in the south, none of them associate the flag with slavery. They all associate it with states rights, and southern pride. I really do understand the negativity that is associated, and the assumption of bigotry. But I think that within cultures there are things that are considered acceptable that people out of that culture do not understand. Look at the n word used within the Black community, specifically the rap community. It is totally accepted, and does not have racist intent. But people outside that community can not use it without being judged a racist.

My husband once bought a truck with a confederate flag painted on the tail gate, when he went and had it repainted the guy that ran the body shop was from the south. He and Dave had a great conversation about what the flag means to him and opposed to the rest of the world. Really changed my mind about what I think when I see the flag. We chose to paint over it because we are not from the south and did not feel a connection to the flag.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Confederate flags are common in Texas and I wouldn't think twice if I saw someone with one or even wearing a bandana or something with a Confederate flag. I think that people make way too much of it and this kid probably grew up somewhere where it wasn't a big deal. People here would not link it with slavery at all.

It says in the article that it was "a connection to his relatives of the South." It doesn't say he grew up in the South, which might make more sense.

Some people dismiss it as less than it was.

He's in NJ; not TX. If it isn't a problem in TX, this never would have made news. He wouldn't have been suspended.

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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

Is there a "symbol" for abortion that people display? Is there anyone who's PROUD of abortion? Even people who get abortions aren't proud of them. Even those of us who are pro-choice think abortions are a tragedy. It's not a comparison that really works.

I am pro-choice but not pro-abortion. I don't advocate abortion. I'm not proud that people get them although I have held friends' hands through it all. It's not even close.

I don't understand being proud of the Confederacy. I understand being proud of your rich Southern culture. What's wrong with displaying your state flag instead?

That is just it. It is not a symbol of slavery. It is a symbol of the South and is MUCH more than slavery. Being pro South or States rights is not at all the same as being pro slavery. I am absolutly against slavery or treating anyone less than someone else for any reason. The State flag is not the symbol of the South. It just isn't.

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

That is just it. It is not a symbol of slavery. It is a symbol of the South and is MUCH more than slavery. Being pro South or States rights is not at all the same as being pro slavery. I am absolutly against slavery or treating anyone less than someone else for any reason. The State flag is not the symbol of the South. It just isn't.

Yes, the Confederate flag does symbolize slavery. There is no side-stepping or sugar-coating that issue. YOU, personally, may not see it as such. But that doesn't change it.

Let me see if I can think of a comparison....
You used the rainbow earlier as an example of something meaning different things to different people. I can tell you what a rainbow means to ME, but I can't/shouldn't ignore that to others it symbolizes homosexuality.

I wear a ring on my ring-finger of my left hand. Am I married? No. Is it an engagement ring? No. But I am aware what it means to me, isn't what it may mean to others. So while, a ring on that finger may not always symbolize marriage, I can't dismiss that fact that it symbolizes that for others just because it doesn't symbolize that for me.

You keep using all of these positive qualities for the South but ignoring the negative. You can't say the flag represents the good without recognizing it also represents the bad.

Wasn't the whole states' rights issue attached to slavery?

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"ethanwinfield" wrote:

Wasn't the whole states' rights issue attached to slavery?

Slavery was only one issue attached to States rights. It would be like some States wanting to ban guns and the Federal Govt saying no. Or some states wanting to ban abortion and the Federal Govt. said no. Slavery was the most visible issue at the time, but that was not what the Civil war was about. It was about if the States got to decided issues or if the Federal Govt. got to decide issues.

It is like I said before, if Abortion was banned would that represent our whole culture, or one small aspect of our culture? If guns were later banned, would that fact that we used to have them represent our entire culture? Because the South did something shameful in having slaves (And so did many Northerners), does that wipe out the ENTIRE culture of the area? We can not celebrate an entire region of the Country? Yes, there is racism and prejudice in the South. But having lived in both places I can tell you that there is plenty of Prejudice from the North toward the South. I can't tell you how many teacher I had growing up that told me that Southern kids were very far behind in school and that if we ever moved to the South we would be at least 6 months behind in school. Any child that had a Southern accent was teased terribly. Attitudes that all Southerners are backward hill billies even from many adults. Is that as bad as Slavery or some of the racism that goes on? No, it is not. But it is still belittling an entire culture of people.

Even the idea that all the South was about is Slavery is just so limiting. The South is such a full culture, I can not even describe what I mean. I think of New Orleans. It is a unique place with its own very rich heritage. It would be like saying that whole area, all it is the place that Hurricane Katrina hit. Yes that happened there, but to say that that is all that place is is a huge tragedy.

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"ethanwinfield" wrote:

I wear a ring on my ring-finger of my left hand. Am I married? No. Is it an engagement ring? No. But I am aware what it means to me, isn't what it may mean to others. So while, a ring on that finger may not always symbolize marriage, I can't dismiss that fact that it symbolizes that for others just because it doesn't symbolize that for me.

But I would not say to you "Well you have a ring on your left hand so you MUST be married." Or that it is wrong of you to wear a ring on your left hand when you are not married. What jewlery you wear is your business and if to a Southerner the Confederate flag stands for the Southern States that is his business. I can't help it if someone takes something to mean something different than it was intended.

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

But I would not say to you "Well you have a ring on your left hand so you MUST be married." Or that it is wrong of you to wear a ring on your left hand when you are not married. What jewlery you wear is your business and if to a Southerner the Confederate flag stands for the Southern States that is his business. I can't help it if someone takes something to mean something different than it was intended.

Irony

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"ethanwinfield" wrote:

Irony

I was just doing my dishes and thinking about this. It did remind me of the Happy Holidays debate.

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"ethanwinfield" wrote:

He wasn't suspended for having it. He was suspended for refusing to remove it.

Okay...parking on school property falls under the jurisdiction of the school.

When it comes to schools, the laws are different - I can legally buy and posses cigarettes. However, I cannot have them on school property. If I worked just about anywhere else, I could have cigarettes in my car and park on company property.

There are crimes that are fall under both. If a student has an illegal substance on school grounds, he/she can be suspended AND face criminal charges.

Just curious: At your place of employment (any place of employment past or present), if you committed a crime at work, wouldn't you face both criminal consequences and employment consequences?

Again, this is at a school. Yes, we have the right to fly the Confederate flag and burn the US flag. Do you really think burning the US flag on school property would be without consequences?

I think it is ridiculous.. seriously.
1- cigarettes - you can have them on school property here you just can't smoke on the school property I think is the law.. or you have to go to your vehicle... what state are you in?
2- Schools should have no jurisdiction over your vehicle it is your private property.. So if someone comes and parks on my property I can search their car?
3-You are taking what I said and flipping it in reverse.. I am saying have the police deal with offences that are criminal first of all.. if not criminal..Sure talk to the child and then the parents.. for me

-- I do not see this as an offense..
--- I do not think the school should have jurisdiction over the parked vehicles.. you are saying if a parent comes to pick up a child and they are a smoker she better not have her cigarettes in her purse?
--- I do not think the admin would care as much if a bunch of kids chose to burn the flag.. I highly doubt they would get suspended. If they did it during lunch in the parking lot.
----If I did something criminal anywhere it should be the police to deal with it.. that was my point.

If it was IN the school.. or at the job.. and I did something I understand.. If it was in my private life and I got pulled over for speeding... a DUI.. petty theft.... depends the job and the crime as to whether I would loose my job.. there are LOTS of things someone could go to JAIL even for that one would not even loose a HIGH ranking job like a government official for.. how about overdue parking tickets...? or something the judge throws out..?

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"ethanwinfield" wrote:

Yes, the Confederate flag does symbolize slavery. There is no side-stepping or sugar-coating that issue. YOU, personally, may not see it as such. But that doesn't change it.

No it doesn't. It symbolizes rebels or rednecks. YOU, personally may not see it as such. But that doesn't change it. The flag he had wasn't even a true flag it had REDNECK in huge letters written across it. The principle at this school just decided to go overboard on the politically correct scale.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

In no way would I take that flag to mean slavery. If anything, I would take that to be belittling Southerners.

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sounds like the poor kid couldn't win either way... maybe the school should start suspending kids if they can't drive a certain make of car now.. it is too distracting if you have a rust bucket.....

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

No it doesn't. It symbolizes rebels or rednecks. YOU, personally may not see it as such. But that doesn't change it. The flag he had wasn't even a true flag it had REDNECK in huge letters written across it. The principle at this school just decided to go overboard on the politically correct scale.

Wait. So now it also symbolizes rednecks?

The term Redneck is chiefly used for a poor rural white person of the Southern United States. It can be a derogatory slang term similar in meaning to cracker (especially regarding Georgia and Florida), hillbilly (especially regarding Appalachia and the Ozarks), and white trash (but without the last term's suggestions of immorality).

What does it mean to all the non-rednecks in the South?

You really can't define what something means to other people. I am fully aware that if I travel to other areas, I don't get to define what things mean to the people I meet. Likewise, if you travel to my little corner of the world, the Confederate flag is going to symbolize racism.

Take tipping for example. To me it is an act of appreciation. If I travel to other countries it would behoove me to research what it means to others. I can't just scream from the top of my lungs that tipping is an act of appreciation and therefore you can't be offended by it!

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"ethanwinfield" wrote:

Wait. So now it also symbolizes rednecks?

I have never heard of someone else say that the Confederate flag symbolizes rednecks. Neither have I heard the term rednecks used in a positive way.

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From Dictionary.com

[h=1]redneck[/h]  

[h=2]red?neck[/h] [red-nek] Show IPA Informal: Often Disparaging.

noun 1. an uneducated white farm laborer, especially from the South.

2. a bigot or reactionary, especially from the rural working class.

adjective 3. Also, red-necked. narrow, prejudiced, or reactionary: a redneck attitude. Synonyms: biased, narrow-minded, intolerant. Antonyms: fair-minded, open-minded, broad-minded, tolerant, unbiased, impartial

I think most people associate rednecks with being prejudiced and intolerant of black people, Jewish people, gay people, etc. It's not about being working class, it's about being narrow-minded.

Certainly in New Jersey this is the case. The Confederate flag absolutely represents racism in this part of the country. I don't doubt that it has a very different connotation in the deep south, but New Jersey is not the deep south.

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I always think of Jeff Foxworthy when I think of the term redneck. And someone who is not very smart or educated.

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Websters is
1 sometimes disparaging : a white member of the Southern rural laboring class
2
often disparaging : a person whose behavior and opinions are similar to those attributed to rednecks

I do not see it as a negative... I see rural laboring classes as some of the most hardworking people on the planet.. so.. I do not see the word badly. Though people use it as a negative term.. it is used by people who think they are close minded etc... But the first definition should not be a negative..

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I don't see why it matters what it means to people living in Tennessee and Texas, or any other place besides NJ. Different culture different people. Its a distraction and the school has a right to request its removal if its going to be parked on their property.

The kid is in NJ, Southerners, not enough people think the way you think there, thus it causes problems.

End of story.

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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

From Dictionary.com

I think most people associate rednecks with being prejudiced and intolerant of black people, Jewish people, gay people, etc. It's not about being working class, it's about being narrow-minded.

Certainly in New Jersey this is the case. The Confederate flag absolutely represents racism in this part of the country. I don't doubt that it has a very different connotation in the deep south, but New Jersey is not the deep south.

Yeah this is another one of those cultural things where people interpret it very differently depending on where they are. People up here by me identify with the term 'redneck' and it means none of those things. People love to use the term up here simply to refer to their rural culture.

Like i'll give you an example, one summer on the way to a town far away we drove through an extremely rural area. As we were driving down this rural route we passed two full grown adult guys in their white undershirts. One was driving a dirt bike and he was pulling the other guy behind him on a plastic sled...just for ****s and giggles.

Thats was a very redneck thing to be doing by the cultural standards up here. They may hate black people, they may not. But whether they do or not does not make them a redneck, the fact that they were in their undershirts yehawing it on a dirtbike and plastic sled did. (Because you know, they live on this rural road in the middle of nowhere. I mean what else are you going to do on a Saturday afternoon)

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KimPossible = your description is simply what RURAL people do..... for fun.. has nothing to do with the South. So now... Rural people can't be proud and have a FLAG at school...

This would in essence mean a huge 4x4 with mud on the side.. from going muddin after school... or a gun rack in the back (oh you are right no guns allowed on campus's anymore)... even though our kids start learning to shoot when they are about 6yo and mine is getting his first gun at 12 yo..

I do see your POINT in social groups... but we are in the USA... right? We are going to start legislating people out of their own cultures if they move to a different location? or if they identify with a different culture? Sounds a bit like what happened with the Native Americans.. just on a more spread out diluted scale so it has been subversively accepted.

Not everyone has to act like a liberal democrat from the city to be acceptable in society at large.

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"KimPossible" wrote:

Yeah this is another one of those cultural things where people interpret it very differently depending on where they are. People up here by me identify with the term 'redneck' and it means none of those things. People love to use the term up here simply to refer to their rural culture.

Like i'll give you an example, one summer on the way to a town far away we drove through an extremely rural area. As we were driving down this rural route we passed two full grown adult guys in their white undershirts. One was driving a dirt bike and he was pulling the other guy behind him on a plastic sled...just for ****s and giggles.

Thats was a very redneck thing to be doing by the cultural standards up here. They may hate black people, they may not. But whether they do or not does not make them a redneck, the fact that they were in their undershirts yehawing it on a dirtbike and plastic sled did. (Because you know, they live on this rural road in the middle of nowhere. I mean what else are you going to do on a Saturday afternoon)

This is also what I think of as redneck.

"wKimPossible" wrote:

I don't see why it matters what it means to people living in Tennessee and Texas, or any other place besides NJ. Different culture different people. Its a distraction and the school has a right to request its removal if its going to be parked on their property.

The kid is in NJ, Southerners, not enough people think the way you think there, thus it causes problems.

End of story.

My point was never that this boy should be allowed to have a confederate flag on his truck, but that the Confederate flag is not always bad or always means bad things.

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

KimPossible = your description is simply what RURAL people do..... for fun.. has nothing to do with the South. So now... Rural people can't be proud and have a FLAG at school...

I wasn't talking about the south. I was responding to Lauries comment about the term redneck and what it means and how it varies from one place to another. Just like your cultural view of the confederate flag. I never said my description had anything to do with southern people. Unless you are claiming the only people who can use the term redneck are southerners.

This would in essence mean a huge 4x4 with mud on the side.. from going muddin after school... or a gun rack in the back (oh you are right no guns allowed on campus's anymore)... even though our kids start learning to shoot when they are about 6yo and mine is getting his first gun at 12 yo..

Yeah i think you just misunderstood the point i was making in response to Laurie, it really had nothing to do with the original debate, only this idea that redneck can be equated with a bigot. Just saying its not universally true.

I do see your POINT in social groups... but we are in the USA... right? We are going to start legislating people out of their own cultures if they move to a different location? or if they identify with a different culture? Sounds a bit like what happened with the Native Americans.. just on a more spread out diluted scale so it has been subversively accepted.

No, its just that you can't cause disruption at a school no matter WHAT your culture is.

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

My point was never that this boy should be allowed to have a confederate flag on his truck, but that the Confederate flag is not always bad or always means bad things.

Oh okay. I thought we were debating if he should be allowed to have the flag on his truck or not when it was on school property.

That aside, I almost agree with your wording here. I would say that it means bad things to some people/in some places and "not bad things" to other people/in other places.

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