Confedertate Flag

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"KimPossible" wrote:

Oh okay. I thought we were debating if he should be allowed to have the flag on his truck or not when it was on school property.

I believe Rivergally was making that point, but not me. I think a school should be able to ban the flag if it is a problem in that area. It would not be a problem here though.

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"KimPossible" wrote:

I wasn't talking about the south. I was responding to Lauries comment about the term redneck and what it means and how it varies from one place to another. Just like your cultural view of the confederate flag. I never said my description had anything to do with southern people. Unless you are claiming the only people who can use the term redneck are southerners.

Yeah i think you just misunderstood the point i was making in response to Laurie, it really had nothing to do with the original debate, only this idea that redneck can be equated with a bigot. Just saying its not universally true.

No, its just that you can't cause disruption at a school no matter WHAT your culture is.

---- Exactly... dress all the Native Americans in English clothes.. cut their hair.. force them to only speak English...

... No redneck flag flying on a truck.. no guns in gun racks... no shaved heads.. no bandanas.. no certain colors might be in gangs... and on and on and on it goes... where it stops? When everyone looks alike, speaks alike... THINKS alike.. Wink

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

---- Exactly... dress all the Native Americans in English clothes.. cut their hair.. force them to only speak English...

... No redneck flag flying on a truck.. no guns in gun racks... no shaved heads.. no bandanas.. no certain colors might be in gangs... and on and on and on it goes... where it stops? When everyone looks alike, speaks alike... THINKS alike.. Wink

What is the primary function of public schools to you?

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

---- Exactly... dress all the Native Americans in English clothes.. cut their hair.. force them to only speak English...

... No redneck flag flying on a truck.. no guns in gun racks... no shaved heads.. no bandanas.. no certain colors might be in gangs... and on and on and on it goes... where it stops? When everyone looks alike, speaks alike... THINKS alike.. Wink

This is a slippery slope that I'm not worried about. Not 'just because' but with reason. There is a very easy to point to context around the confederate flag as a symbol that just doesn't exist with some of those other things that you are talking about. Shaved heads and bandanas? The point isn't to abolish anything that is 'southern culture' on a school campus...it is to abolish something that historically speaking has a hateful context. Just because 'southerners don't use it that way all the time' doesn't mean that context goes away.

As for guns in gun racks, that has to do with gun laws that everyone has. Colors for gangs? I totally support that in school districts that are culturally exposed to problematic gang behavior related to what you wear. I wouldn't support that anywhere where a color combo has no highly defined meaning within the community. No 'might be' about it.

And seriously we are talking about what you can do on a campus that effects how one can actually receive their public education. We are not talking about legally banning these items from ever being used personally.

I understand its something you worry about. I don't.

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"KimPossible" wrote:

This is a slippery slope that I'm not worried about. Not 'just because' but with reason. There is a very easy to point to context around the confederate flag as a symbol that just doesn't exist with some of those other things that you are talking about. Shaved heads and bandanas? The point isn't to abolish anything that is 'southern culture' on a school campus...it is to abolish something that historically speaking has a hateful context. Just because 'southerners don't use it that way all the time' doesn't mean that context goes away.

As for guns in gun racks, that has to do with gun laws that everyone has. Colors for gangs? I totally support that in school districts that are culturally exposed to problematic gang behavior related to what you wear. I wouldn't support that anywhere where a color combo has no highly defined meaning within the community. No 'might be' about it.

And seriously we are talking about what you can do on a campus that effects how one can actually receive their public education. We are not talking about legally banning these items from ever being used personally.

I understand its something you worry about. I don't.

There are many more I could pick... tee-shirts with not violent sayings.. but religious ones... We had a girl in Oregon suspended for shaving her head to support her best friend who lost her hair due to Chemo... etc.. Either put them all in uniforms if you do not want them individuals or don't.. but this suspending is silliness... Who are they to say these things.. I doubt very much it is as disturbing as they make it.. and shouldn't they show children that there are different views in the world than their own.. and learn to work together... What if a Teen gets a **** Tattoo? will they be expelled? how about a gun tattoo... zero tolerance policies.. have kicked children out for drawing guns.. signing their name which looked like a gun.. biting a sandwich into the shape of a gun etc etc..

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They would be asked to cover the tattoo. If that wasn't possible, they would have to leave until they figured out a way to cover it.

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I do think there's a difference between expressing yourself and intimidating others. I could see may students feeling threatened or intimidated by a Confederate flag (in New Jersey), vs. someone who shaves her head in solidarity with a friend. All things are not equal. I am not a fan of conformity, but this isn't about conformity, it's about racial intimidation. Honestly, in this part of the country, that is what the Confederate flag represents. It implies that someone supports a time and place where slavery was a way of life. I get that it doesn't represent that everywhere, but it absolutely represents it here. It's not about being alike, it's about getting an education in an atmosphere free of racial hostility...as much as that is possible in this messed-up world.

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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

I do think there's a difference between expressing yourself and intimidating others. I could see may students feeling threatened or intimidated by a Confederate flag (in New Jersey), vs. someone who shaves her head in solidarity with a friend. All things are not equal. I am not a fan of conformity, but this isn't about conformity, it's about racial intimidation. Honestly, in this part of the country, that is what the Confederate flag represents. It implies that someone supports a time and place where slavery was a way of life. I get that it doesn't represent that everywhere, but it absolutely represents it here. It's not about being alike, it's about getting an education in an atmosphere free of racial hostility...as much as that is possible in this messed-up world.

Was the child that drives this vehicle harassing students inside the school? that would be a grounds for suspension. A flag or a sign or a bumper sticker or their whole vehicle painted/tagged with evil nasty comments toward any group is up to them IMO.. if they want to risk it being torched, or them beat up It is something their parents or the local municipalities need to deal with if it is against the laws in that area.. not the school..

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Where I went to school and most schools that I am familiar with, school property is treated the same inside the building as outside. Any rules that apply inside the classroom also apply in the parking lot. Where the boundaries were was well known. Any smoking that was done had to be done across the street. We called it the "smokers corner". The teachers also had a shack that a neighbour rented out to the teachers that smoked for them to go to on their breaks.

In the same way, if I had a child that went to school, I would expect that the school was going to assure my child's safety as long as they were on school property. For example, I would expect the same basic school rules would apply on the playground as they did in math class. If I put my 6 year old on a school bus I would expect that from the moment she left my driveway to the moment she was returned to my driveway that the school was taking responsibility for her safekeeping. I can not see how it would work to not enforce basic rules such as no bullying, no fist fights, no smoking and so on to apply equally to inside the classroom as they would in the parking lot, playground, or football field.

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

Was the child that drives this vehicle harassing students inside the school? that would be a grounds for suspension. A flag or a sign or a bumper sticker or their whole vehicle painted/tagged with evil nasty comments toward any group is up to them IMO.. if they want to risk it being torched, or them beat up It is something their parents or the local municipalities need to deal with if it is against the laws in that area.. not the school..

No I'm pretty sure that the school has a responsibility to try to avoid those things happening ON their property. Those types of incidents at the very least are a serious distraction to education and at the very most are risks to other kids, not just to the kid who chooses to do this that or the other thing to their car, and it absolutely makes sense for the school to act accordingly.

Sorry, if you are on a campus with hundreds of other kids, receiving a fairly crucial service, you need to play by a few extra rules. Do whatever you want...somewhere else.

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"KimPossible" wrote:

No I'm pretty sure that the school has a responsibility to try to avoid those things happening ON their property. Those types of incidents at the very least are a serious distraction to education and at the very most are risks to other kids, not just to the kid who chooses to do this that or the other thing to their car, and it absolutely makes sense for the school to act accordingly.

Sorry, if you are on a campus with hundreds of other kids, receiving a fairly crucial service, you need to play by a few extra rules. Do whatever you want...somewhere else.

If I was worried for the child's safety I would tell the child and tell the parent..and if it was against city ordinances call the authorities.. I still highly disagree it is disturbing to learning.. If a child wants to paint a target on their back... that is up to them. I disagree that is the reason they suspended the child.. for his safety... suspension just sends the child home to remain a target.

ETA --- how many extra rules is my question.. Is this something that they signed when they started school? IE no flags on the back of your vehicle? I know in handbooks there are guidelines like dresscodes but every year the parents/student are required to sign it.. if it wasn't.. what are they doing?...

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

Where I went to school and most schools that I am familiar with, school property is treated the same inside the building as outside. Any rules that apply inside the classroom also apply in the parking lot. Where the boundaries were was well known. Any smoking that was done had to be done across the street. We called it the "smokers corner". The teachers also had a shack that a neighbour rented out to the teachers that smoked for them to go to on their breaks.

In the same way, if I had a child that went to school, I would expect that the school was going to assure my child's safety as long as they were on school property. For example, I would expect the same basic school rules would apply on the playground as they did in math class. If I put my 6 year old on a school bus I would expect that from the moment she left my driveway to the moment she was returned to my driveway that the school was taking responsibility for her safekeeping. I can not see how it would work to not enforce basic rules such as no bullying, no fist fights, no smoking and so on to apply equally to inside the classroom as they would in the parking lot, playground, or football field.

Bonita - you have a very very good point here! Someone finally worded it so I may concede.. "may".. that School Property = School Rules.... so what about the second part.. Was the School rule known...? and Third.. SHOULD it be a school rule re: decorating a PRIVATE vehicle.

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When I was in school..it didn't matter what was my property..it was school rules. That included my car. That included my backpack. If I left something in my locker that was illegal they could call the cops on me.

You could have your car decorated in swastikas if you want. I'll tell you to get it off my property.

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Imagine it is a swastika, and it's in the school parking lot, on a student's car. Other kids see that on their way in to THEIR school. Flag with a swastika.

Kid who owns it is asked to remove it, says no. Obviously he only has to remove it when he parks at the school, but he refuses.

You don't think that presents a problem?

Now, like it or not, you have to accept that in New Jersey, the Confederate flag doesn't represent a love of the rich Southern culture and history in this country, it represents racism. It just does. I believe 100% that that's not what it means in other parts of the country, but here, it's a symbol of a place & time when black people were owned by white people. So imagine what THAT'S like in your school parking lot.

This is about racial intimidation and not self-expression.

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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

Imagine it is a swastika, and it's in the school parking lot, on a student's car. Other kids see that on their way in to THEIR school. Flag with a swastika.

Kid who owns it is asked to remove it, says no. Obviously he only has to remove it when he parks at the school, but he refuses.

You don't think that presents a problem?

Now, like it or not, you have to accept that in New Jersey, the Confederate flag doesn't represent a love of the rich Southern culture and history in this country, it represents racism. It just does. I believe 100% that that's not what it means in other parts of the country, but here, it's a symbol of a place & time when black people were owned by white people. So imagine what THAT'S like in your school parking lot.

This is about racial intimidation and not self-expression.

#1 - it is their truck so no.. I do not think a school should be able to say how I decorate it if is parked in a government owned parking lot...
#2- I do understand about the Locker issue Jessica.. and it is INside the school... Again.. so you are saying it is ok for the school to legislate what is in my car if I come to pick up my children?
#3 - Do I believe it presents a problem?... possibly.. should it? NO... children should be taught that others might not like them for whatever crazy reason.. Teachers and Admin should be able to teach the children if someone's car is parked outside with some crazy hate message... again it is outside.. there was no indication that this child was spreading "hate speech" inside the school during school hours.
#4 - Regardless of the decor they should be allowed to do it.. and you do know you just committed a fallacy in this argument by bringing up the Swastika.. but I will let it slide. And no.. it should not matter.
#5 - IF the school cared so much why wasn't it in their handbook?... and if it IS I think should not sign it and it is an overreach... to dictate what is in or on someone's vehicle.
#6 - Again if it is a city issue, or the school is worried for the child.. suspending the child is not the way to go... approach the child, then the parent.. and then the police.. if it is truly against city laws.. Otherwise.. rewrite the handbook... or get over it... Really...why can't children know there are hateful people in the world and in their school?... and WHY should we legislate thought? If someone is hurting someone stop it.. but simply seeing a symbol?... people need to relax.....

Otherwise Conservative Christians could make a huge issue of gays absconding with the rainbow which was God's sign to Noah..

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

#1 - it is their truck so no.. I do not think a school should be able to say how I decorate it if is parked in a government owned parking lot...
#2- I do understand about the Locker issue Jessica.. and it is INside the school... Again.. so you are saying it is ok for the school to legislate what is in my car if I come to pick up my children?
#3 - Do I believe it presents a problem?... possibly.. should it? NO... children should be taught that others might not like them for whatever crazy reason.. Teachers and Admin should be able to teach the children if someone's car is parked outside with some crazy hate message... again it is outside.. there was no indication that this child was spreading "hate speech" inside the school during school hours.
#4 - Regardless of the decor they should be allowed to do it.. and you do know you just committed a fallacy in this argument by bringing up the Swastika.. but I will let it slide. And no.. it should not matter.
#5 - IF the school cared so much why wasn't it in their handbook?... and if it IS I think should not sign it and it is an overreach... to dictate what is in or on someone's vehicle.
#6 - Again if it is a city issue, or the school is worried for the child.. suspending the child is not the way to go... approach the child, then the parent.. and then the police.. if it is truly against city laws.. Otherwise.. rewrite the handbook... or get over it... Really...why can't children know there are hateful people in the world and in their school?... and WHY should we legislate thought? If someone is hurting someone stop it.. but simply seeing a symbol?... people need to relax.....

Otherwise Conservative Christians could make a huge issue of gays absconding with the rainbow which was God's sign to Noah..

I am curious about the difference between in and out of a school building as long as it is still school property. I expect the same rights in my yard as I do in my home.

Do you feel other school rules should not apply on school property like no smoking or no hitting?

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

I am curious about the difference between in and out of a school building as long as it is still school property. I expect the same rights in my yard as I do in my home.

Do you feel other school rules should not apply on school property like no smoking or no hitting?

If these are not done in a vehicle then sure.. But if my children are fighting in my car and hit each other should the school be in charge of that if I am on school property? Should I not be allowed to smoke or have cigarettes in my car?

Also these rules would only apply to students.. if two adults got into a brawl on school property.. police would be called. Also it is only during school hours.. otherwise who would "police" it.....

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

#1 - it is their truck so no.. I do not think a school should be able to say how I decorate it if is parked in a government owned parking lot...
#2- I do understand about the Locker issue Jessica.. and it is INside the school... Again.. so you are saying it is ok for the school to legislate what is in my car if I come to pick up my children?
#3 - Do I believe it presents a problem?... possibly.. should it? NO... children should be taught that others might not like them for whatever crazy reason.. Teachers and Admin should be able to teach the children if someone's car is parked outside with some crazy hate message... again it is outside.. there was no indication that this child was spreading "hate speech" inside the school during school hours.
#4 - Regardless of the decor they should be allowed to do it.. and you do know you just committed a fallacy in this argument by bringing up the Swastika.. but I will let it slide. And no.. it should not matter.
#5 - IF the school cared so much why wasn't it in their handbook?... and if it IS I think should not sign it and it is an overreach... to dictate what is in or on someone's vehicle.
#6 - Again if it is a city issue, or the school is worried for the child.. suspending the child is not the way to go... approach the child, then the parent.. and then the police.. if it is truly against city laws.. Otherwise.. rewrite the handbook... or get over it... Really...why can't children know there are hateful people in the world and in their school?... and WHY should we legislate thought? If someone is hurting someone stop it.. but simply seeing a symbol?... people need to relax.....

Otherwise Conservative Christians could make a huge issue of gays absconding with the rainbow which was God's sign to Noah..

Who the heck is legislating thought?

I can't see how it's okay to have racial hatred expressed in the school parking lot. Lots of kids come to that school and they should do so in an environment free of racial prejudice.

I don't know what this handbook is -- my school didn't have one, but it's been decades since I was in school. But how could a handbook cover every symbol and every flag? I suspect it covers racial intimidation.

The rainbow flag doesn't express hatred towards anyone. How is that a better comparison than a swastika?

People do not need to relax when it comes to racial intimidation, they need to be vigilant.

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While rainbow symbols are often to show you are gay or an ally it's not inclusive to that. My daughter had a rainbow birthday cake a few years ago...not sure if she's gay or not but she hasn't told me she is.

A swastika, at *this* time, is not a symbol of love and tolerance.

And yes, as a parent, if you drove your car and had a swastika on the side, I would think the school should ask you to leave the premises.

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

If these are not done in a vehicle then sure.. But if my children are fighting in my car and hit each other should the school be in charge of that if I am on school property? Should I not be allowed to smoke or have cigarettes in my car?

Also these rules would only apply to students.. if two adults got into a brawl on school property.. police would be called. Also it is only during school hours.. otherwise who would "police" it.....

What is inside your car outside of sight is different to what is on the outside in plain sight. When I was in High School driving your car and keeping it on school property was a privilege that could be revoked for bad behavior. The School had absolute control over if a vehicle was allowed on the school property.

I am not saying that the flag should necessarily be banned, however I do not see how you can distinguish between inside the school and outside on school property. If two teenagers were to skip class, go to the parking lot and make a baby would it make any difference if they were behind a car or under the bleachers? If one kid were to pull down the pants of another student would it make any offence if they were in math class or on the football feild? If I were to send my child to school I would expect them to be safe and taken care of the entire time they were at school. Not just the Times they were inside buildings. Maybe it is because my children are in elementary school still, but I can not imagine if I sent my kids to a school and they were only under the teachers protection while indoors. The playground, bus, parking lot, and anything else outside was fair game. That just does not make sense to me. Even from an insurance pov, my church has a small school and the insurance company has strict rules about what can happen on school property. The School would have to maintain some basic safety rules on the school grounds to maintain their liability insurance.

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

If these are not done in a vehicle then sure.. But if my children are fighting in my car and hit each other should the school be in charge of that if I am on school property? Should I not be allowed to smoke or have cigarettes in my car?

Also these rules would only apply to students.. if two adults got into a brawl on school property.. police would be called. Also it is only during school hours.. otherwise who would "police" it.....

It depends on what it is.

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

What is inside your car outside of sight is different to what is on the outside in plain sight. When I was in High School driving your car and keeping it on school property was a privilege that could be revoked for bad behavior. The School had absolute control over if a vehicle was allowed on the school property.

I am not saying that the flag should necessarily be banned, however I do not see how you can distinguish between inside the school and outside on school property. If two teenagers were to skip class, go to the parking lot and make a baby would it make any difference if they were behind a car or under the bleachers? If one kid were to pull down the pants of another student would it make any offence if they were in math class or on the football feild? If I were to send my child to school I would expect them to be safe and taken care of the entire time they were at school. Not just the Times they were inside buildings. Maybe it is because my children are in elementary school still, but I can not imagine if I sent my kids to a school and they were only under the teachers protection while indoors. The playground, bus, parking lot, and anything else outside was fair game. That just does not make sense to me. Even from an insurance pov, my church has a small school and the insurance company has strict rules about what can happen on school property. The School would have to maintain some basic safety rules on the school grounds to maintain their liability insurance.

So these---
#1 are actions
#2 are students of the school.
--- does the insurance company say that they can not have satanic symbols in or on their vehicle?
--

Also someone brought up cigarettes in their car before.. that is why I mentioned inside my car if I come to pick up a child.. I will be on school grounds.

ETA
#3 any of these are also against city laws.. violence, or public sexual acts..

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"ethanwinfield" wrote:

It depends on what it is.

Explain how a brawl between adults on school grounds would have lead to a suspension....? Wouldn't they just call the police? As I said.. if something is against city laws or ordinances call them.. Otherwise I do not see something on a truck as grounds for suspension... what if it had been a parents truck?

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

If these are not done in a vehicle then sure.. But if my children are fighting in my car and hit each other should the school be in charge of that if I am on school property? Should I not be allowed to smoke or have cigarettes in my car?

Also these rules would only apply to students.. if two adults got into a brawl on school property.. police would be called. Also it is only during school hours.. otherwise who would "police" it.....

"ethanwinfield" wrote:

It depends on what it is.

"Rivergallery" wrote:

Explain how a brawl between adults on school grounds would have lead to a suspension....? Wouldn't they just call the police? As I said.. if something is against city laws or ordinances call them.. Otherwise I do not see something on a truck as grounds for suspension... what if it had been a parents truck?

In the statement I quoted you made it sound like you were referring to student issues only applying during school hours. It doesn't make sense to me reading it about adults.

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School rules have to apply both inside and outside the buildings as long as they are on school property. If an adult is breaking school rules, they can be asked to leave. If a student is breaking school rules, then they will be punished as the school sees fit. If laws are broken in addition to school rules, then the cops would be called in addition to whatever punishment the school puts out. There is no way that a school could be a safe place if basic safely and behaviour rules did not apply both inside and outside the building. Are you saying that a school should have no rules at all? If you were to put at least 1,000 kids together of all temperaments together without any basic rules there would be no way for the school to function. School does not happen only inside the buildings, it happens all over the school property. I can not imagine a playground full of young children with no rules what so ever.

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"ethanwinfield" wrote:

In the statement I quoted you made it sound like you were referring to student issues only applying during school hours. It doesn't make sense to me reading it about adults.

Ok if two children got into a fight after school hours.. no one is at the school... Who gets called? Drugs on the school property with no one at the school... maybe it is summertime..etcetc.. Doesn't matter if it is children .. students or not.. Adults .. parents or not... When the school is closed they can not police their property... It is a police matter and City laws reign not school rules...

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

School rules have to apply both inside and outside the buildings as long as they are on school property. If an adult is breaking school rules, they can be asked to leave. If a student is breaking school rules, then they will be punished as the school sees fit. If laws are broken in addition to school rules, then the cops would be called in addition to whatever punishment the school puts out. There is no way that a school could be a safe place if basic safely and behaviour rules did not apply both inside and outside the building. Are you saying that a school should have no rules at all? If you were to put at least 1,000 kids together of all temperaments together without any basic rules there would be no way for the school to function. School does not happen only inside the buildings, it happens all over the school property. I can not imagine a playground full of young children with no rules what so ever.

Adults - rules for children should not always apply to adults.. I should be allowed to own and keep cigarettes in my car (this example was brought up by someone else). Even during school hours adults have keys to the school here they are allowed to go in and out of these doors.. for example where children can't. They can go and do much more than the children.

I never said there should be no rules.

If the playground is full.. it is probably during school hours.. If the school is closed and you go to the playground it is NOT school rules.. go up the slide.. stand on the swing.. throw pebbles if you want.. Go on the grass behind the school where during school hours are you not allowed to go... ALL are fine.. it is only if you break city laws that it is wrong then..

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

Ok if two children got into a fight after school hours.. no one is at the school... Who gets called? Drugs on the school property with no one at the school... maybe it is summertime..etcetc.. Doesn't matter if it is children .. students or not.. Adults .. parents or not... When the school is closed they can not police their property... It is a police matter and City laws reign not school rules...

Again, it depends. Students vandalising school property on the weekend could result in suspension or expulsion.

CA has a cyber bullying law that allows schools to take action in school also if social media is used to harass other students. Would you really be okay with a teacher or student making an "I hate [your child]" Facebook page? I mean, as long as I don't cross the line to illegal I can do whatever I want, right? I could put a sign in my window saying "I hate [your child]! She's ugly, and obnoxious!"

Nothing illegal about what I do. Should the school not be able to get involved? Should I face no consequences for creating a hostile climent for your child within the school even though my actions take place across the street from the school?

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"ethanwinfield" wrote:

Again, it depends. Students vandalising school property on the weekend could result in suspension or expulsion.

CA has a cyber bullying law that allows schools to take action in school also if social media is used to harass other students. Would you really be okay with a teacher or student making an "I hate [your child]" Facebook page? I mean, as long as I don't cross the line to illegal I can do whatever I want, right? I could put a sign in my window saying "I hate [your child]! She's ugly, and obnoxious!"

Nothing illegal about what I do. Should the school not be able to get involved? Should I face no consequences for creating a hostile climent for your child within the school even though my actions take place across the street from the school?

1- vandalism - Should it result in suspension?.. IMO no it should be a police matter.. fines etc.. force the child to clean it up.
2- cyber bullying - if it is the LAW in CA I do not think it should result in expulsion if not done at school.. let the authorities deal with it..
3- Long as it is not illegal.. YES you should have the freedom to put an evil hateful sign in your window.
4-School should be set up to teach not to discipline those actions not done at school.

Interesting points RE cyberbullying.. I had not thought about that in connection here.

I would also venture to say.. If two children get into a fight or two gangs and kids get killed even OUTSIDE of school.. Schools should not be involved in the discipline.. just the police. If the judge says they need to remain separate or the parents THEN the school complies.. Long as the students are not harrassing each other during school..

This is a topic close to my heart as my BFF's children have gotten beat up at school to the point of unconsciousness. He was suspended even though it was a group that jumped him.. he tried to throw a punch.. This was AT school.. and my friend advocated for the kids to remain separate when they returned. If it was out of school parents, or the child even, or the police/judge could notify the school to request the children be separated... But if the school hears about the fight and does it on their own.. or suspends the children on their own... I do not think that is best.. unless the separation is done due to harassment in the school, or a teacher intimately involved with the child(ren) request it... and have talked it over with the child(ren) and guardian(s).

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

Adults - rules for children should not always apply to adults.. I should be allowed to own and keep cigarettes in my car (this example was brought up by someone else). Even during school hours adults have keys to the school here they are allowed to go in and out of these doors.. for example where children can't. They can go and do much more than the children.

I never said there should be no rules.

If the playground is full.. it is probably during school hours.. If the school is closed and you go to the playground it is NOT school rules.. go up the slide.. stand on the swing.. throw pebbles if you want.. Go on the grass behind the school where during school hours are you not allowed to go... ALL are fine.. it is only if you break city laws that it is wrong then..

Unless I am totally misunderstanding the situation, the OP is about a student during school hours.

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

Unless I am totally misunderstanding the situation, the OP is about a student during school hours.

You are right but other issues came up since the OP.. so I was answering them..

The school controls the situation IF
#1 it is a student
#2 it is during school hours
#3 it is on school property.
-- IMO all these three MUST be met for the school to even consider getting involved... alone.. if it is someone else during school hours and on school property then it should be against city laws. not just.. I have a cigarette in my private vehicle...

Three last questions remain.
#4 Should the parking lot be considered the school.. I posted reasons why not.. Bonita posted valid reasons why.. however they kept the first two rules.. the people were students during school hours.
#5 Should the cars be considered private property.. or school property if parked in a parking lot, belonging to the school.

I assume you are contending Cars that belong to students are property of the school if parked in the parking lot.. meaning the School is in charge of the cars.. can say what they look like and there is a code for those cars...

I contend if nothing was signed by the parents or student at the beginning of the year then they should stay out of it.. if it is against city ordinance then call the POLICE.

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So you have no issue with racial intimidation on school property (the parking lot)?

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

I assume you are contending Cars that belong to students are property of the school if parked in the parking lot.. meaning the School is in charge of the cars.. can say what they look like and there is a code for those cars...

I contend if nothing was signed by the parents or student at the beginning of the year then they should stay out of it.. if it is against city ordinance then call the POLICE.

No, in my opinion a flag or decoration on the outside of a vehicle is different than something on the inside out of sight. I believe at many schools you need a parking permit to park on school property. In order to get such a permit you have to be a student in good standing and know the rules of the school.

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In Mass., you cannot smoke anywhere on school campus whether a student or not, whether you are 18 or not. This goes for when school is in session or out.

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

No, in my opinion a flag or decoration on the outside of a vehicle is different than something on the inside out of sight. I believe at many schools you need a parking permit to park on school property. In order to get such a permit you have to be a student in good standing and know the rules of the school.

Not in the schools where I live there are no parking permits.. what about visitors.. or are the rules just soley for students?

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"Jessica80" wrote:

In Mass., you cannot smoke anywhere on school campus whether a student or not, whether you are 18 or not. This goes for when school is in session or out.

No smoking on school grounds here.. possibly.. not sure for adults now... but nothing is said out when school is out of session..

ETA - what are your smoking laws in general there?

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Can't smoke in restaurants.
Some restrictions in private clubs.
Can smoke in outdoor spaces, but has to be so far from a workplace.

I will post this:
Tobacco Control

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"Jessica80" wrote:

In Mass., you cannot smoke anywhere on school campus whether a student or not, whether you are 18 or not. This goes for when school is in session or out.

It is that way both at the school that I went to growing up and every school I have ever visited.

"Rivergallery" wrote:

Not in the schools where I live there are no parking permits.. what about visitors.. or are the rules just soley for students?

At the school I went to, at each of the schools DH works at, at the local college that has a dental clinic, at the nursing home my mom works at, at the college I went to, at the college my sister went to, almost everywhere I know of employees or students need some sort of parking pass. Either a sticker or decal that goes on their mirror stating they are allowed to park in that place. People who are not regularly going to be there park in spaces labeled "visitor".

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"Jessica80" wrote:

In Mass., you cannot smoke anywhere on school campus whether a student or not, whether you are 18 or not. This goes for when school is in session or out.

Mass State Law -
Section 2A. It shall be unlawful for any student, enrolled in either primary or secondary public schools in the commonwealth, to use tobacco products of any type on school grounds during normal school hours.
Each school committee shall establish a policy dealing with students who violate this law. This policy may include, but not be limited to, mandatory education classes on the hazards of tobacco use.

This was under just the part about Students

#1 there is a Policy already established.
#2 It is during school hours.

-- There is a clause in the law that city's can make stricter laws.. maybe your city does..

ETA nothing is stated specifically for schools RE adults.. so that would fall under Mass law for workplace smoking.. and that would be in buildings and X feet from the door.. In STATE Law again cities might make it stricter.

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

It is that way both at the school that I went to growing up and every school I have ever visited.

At the school I went to, at each of the schools DH works at, at the local college that has a dental clinic, at the nursing home my mom works at, at the college I went to, at the college my sister went to, almost everywhere I know of employees or students need some sort of parking pass. Either a sticker or decal that goes on their mirror stating they are allowed to park in that place. People who are not regularly going to be there park in spaces labeled "visitor".

It was like this when I went to Oregon State University.. but not at the schools locally.. anyone can park in the parking lot.. heck our only park is the playground at the school so people often take kids there when school is out

I did find online someone stating 1000 ft from the school building. Is Virginia Law

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The parking permit thing doesn't matter at all. (We never had to have permits but that was decades ago.)

The point is, should students be free from racial intimidation on school property? Does the school have the right and the obligation to step up when a student is displaying something -- on school property (the parking lot) -- that promotes an atmosphere of racial hostility? I say YES they do have the right and the obligation.

They asked him to remove it, multiple times. He said no. They suspended him.

Laws, smoking, parking permits....all distractions. It's not about the right to displaying something personal. He can have a state flag for any state he wants and drape his whole car in it. But in the north east, the Confederate flag is not innocuous. It just isn't. Georgia, different story. This is New Jersey. And this is a school parking lot. It's not that complicated.

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