Dan Savage: Anti-bullying or Christian bashing?

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Dan Savage: Anti-bullying or Christian bashing?

Did Dan Savage go too far in bashing Christian beliefs at a high school journalism conference? Did his comments help or hurt his anti-bullying campaign?

Dan Savage, the founder of an anti-bullying campaign that has reportedly reached more than 40 million viewers, and has contributors that include President Obama to Hollywood stars, dove into unexpected territory while giving a speech at a high school journalism conference Friday.

There, instead the planned discussion on the dangers of bullying, Savage seemingly turned into a ?bully? himself, albeit a powerful, adult one.

Reports say Savage?s speech quickly turned from the subject of anti-bullying into an event in ?Christian-bashing,? causing as many as 100 students to simply walk out of the event.

Savage noted that Americans disregard much of the ?bulls*it? in the Bible, from laws about shellfish to those about slavery, and we just need to clear one more ?hurdle? in disregarding writings about homosexuality.

?The Bible says that if your daughter?s not a virgin on her wedding night? if a woman is not a virgin on her wedding night? she shall be dragged to her father?s doorstep and stoned to death,? he says, yet ?Callista Gingrich lives.?

Then, seemingly unable to resist a jab at Republicans, he added, ?and there is no effort to amend state constitutions to make it legal to stone women to death on their wedding night if they?re not virgins. At least not yet? we don?t know where the GOP is going these days.?

One student in the audience, Rick Tuttle, remarked, ?I thought this would be about anti-bullying?It turned into a pointed attack on Christian beliefs.?

CitizenLink, which broke the story, interviewed a 17-year old girl who explained: ?The first thing he told [us] was, ?I hope you?re all using birth control!??

He also reportedly told the students about how good his partner looks in a speedo, and called the students who walked out ?pansy a*ses.?

The National Scholastic Press Association and Journalism Education Association, who co-sponsored the event, responded in a statement that they did not have a prior transcript of the speech, and wished he had stayed more ?on target.? However, they wrote optimistically: ?We have already heard from some advisers who have turned this into a teachable moment for their students.?

One teacher was more condemnatory, saying the language and material was inappropriate for high school students, and if anything, Dan Savage was bully in this regard.

?If he was doing this with a bunch of college journalism kids, that would be a different story ? that?s more rough and tumble. How many of the kids who didn?t walk out felt backed into a corner? To me, that?s bullying behavior. It has all the symptoms, as far as I?m concerned.?

Candi Cushman, a CitizenLink blogger, concluded:

?Using profanity to deride the bible ? and then mocking the Christian students after they left the room ? is obviously a form of bullying and name-calling,? she wrote. ?This illustrates perfectly what we?ve been saying all along: Too many times in the name of ?tolerance,? Christian students find their faith being openly mocked and belittled in educational environments.?

There?s a clip of the speech here:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/anti-bullying-crusader-attacks-bible-and-curses-christian-teens-during-high-school-speech/

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I heard about this on the radio today.

He is going against his own purpose. Anti-bullying to me means accepting people for who they are, what they believe and co-existing amicably. Not to create a larger divide between 'them' and 'us' and pass judgement on those who might be in the other group.

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Bulling is bulling. Weather it is a Christian bulling someone into not being gay or a gay person (just an example) bulling someone into not being a Christian. This was very much not appropriate for a high school setting.

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Being a Christian is a choice. Being gay isn't. I don't think commenting on the ridiculous aspects of a religion is bullying. Mean, perhaps, but not bullying. It doesn't say much for their faith that they can't hear others speak out against the hypocracy of it. Aren't they called to be salt and light? Can't well do that when cowering in a hallway with your hands over your ears.

That said, this seems like a very strange and wildly inappropriate venue for a bash of any religion. He was in the wrong.

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I was going to say what Melissa said. I don't nec. have a problem with the message, just when it was delivered. It was supposed to be about anti-bullying, to high school students. The hypocrisy of many Christian Beliefs, while definitely related, isn't really directly on topic. And the topic of Christian hypocrisy isn't really suited to a high school student population anyway....or at least shouldn't be directly tied to a high school event probably.

ETA: Also, ignoring the inappropriate venu for a minute, i don't think pointing out the faulty logic of christians against homosexuality is anything like bullying. So i don't think he, himself, was being a hypocrite.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Being a Christian is a choice. Being gay isn't. I don't think commenting on the ridiculous aspects of a religion is bullying. Mean, perhaps, but not bullying. It doesn't say much for their faith that they can't hear others speak out against the hypocracy of it. Aren't they called to be salt and light? Can't well do that when cowering in a hallway with your hands over your ears.

That said, this seems like a very strange and wildly inappropriate venue for a bash of any religion. He was in the wrong.

Sorry being gay is a choice.

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Sorry you can't prove it. You cling so fervently to that though that it always makes me wonder if you are gay and just denying it. Unless you are choosing to live a straight lifestyle though you are gay, you really have no basis for drawing an opinion on something science can't prove.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Sorry you can't prove it.

Neither can you.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Neither can you.

I draw a lot from my own personal experience. I was born very, very straight. I also have friends who tell me about knowing that they were gay at very very young ages, and doing EVERYTHING in their power to "fake" straight. I don't think that they are lying. Does your gay BFF who you think is going to hell say that they chose to be gay, against their heterosexual longings? I think that would be really hard, to make oneself have sex with a gender one wasn't attracted to, I couldn't do it.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Being a Christian is a choice. Being gay isn't. I don't think commenting on the ridiculous aspects of a religion is bullying. Mean, perhaps, but not bullying.

That said, this seems like a very strange and wildly inappropriate venue for a bash of any religion. He was in the wrong.

Wearing glasses, dressing differently, weighing a certain weight in many situations is a choice and yet it is still bullied.

I don't think whether or not something is a choice is a distinction on what can and cannot be bullied.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Sorry being gay is a choice.

I don't know anyone who has made that choice......actually they tried to choose to be straight and suffered horrible reprecussions and hurt people (wives) in the process.

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"elleon17" wrote:

Wearing glasses, dressing differently, weighing a certain weight in many situations is a choice and yet it is still bullied.

I don't think whether or not something is a choice is a distinction on what can and cannot be bullied.

Commenting negatively on a religion which advocates stoning women is not bullying. It would be bullying to pick on a child because they were fat. It would NOT be bullying to say to a fat child who declares women to be second class citizen, or who defends honor killings, that their religion is hateful and wrong.

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"Potter75" wrote:

I draw a lot from my own personal experience. I was born very, very straight. I also have friends who tell me about knowing that they were gay at very very young ages, and doing EVERYTHING in their power to "fake" straight. I don't think that they are lying. Does your gay BFF who you think is going to hell say that they chose to be gay, against their heterosexual longings? I think that would be really hard, to make oneself have sex with a gender one wasn't attracted to, I couldn't do it.

I draw a lot from my own personal experience too. I could never believe in a God that would call something a sin that a person is born with and has no control over. A lot of people choose to have or continue a relationship that is against God's plan, gay and straight. I don't have the power to judge if they are going to heaven or hell, I can only say that according to the Bible it is a sin. The rest is between them and God. I don't have a gay BFF but we are friends, just like I have a friend that lives with her boyfriend which I think is also a sin.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Commenting negatively on a religion which advocates stoning women is not bullying. It would be bullying to pick on a child because they were fat. It would NOT be bullying to say to a fat child who declares women to be second class citizen, or who defends honor killings, that their religion is hateful and wrong.

So why is he commenting on Christians instead of Muslims? Christians don't stone people anymore (ETA actually they never have) if you haven't heard, but Muslims still do.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

So why is he commenting on Christians instead of Muslims? Christians don't stone people anymore (ETA actually they never have) if you haven't heard, but Muslims still do.

Wasn't the message on bullying? I don't read much about Muslims bullying others in school, but I read a lot about "Christian" kids bullying gay kids and the like. I guess thats why. When bullying rhetoric is coming from the pulpit, it isn't surprising that young kids are taking it onto the playground.

As to you not believing in God just because you may not understand him......well, you are really arrogant. God is GOD, right, isn't he the first one to command that the human mind can't comprehend all that he is and can be?

I hope that science proves that sexuality is NOT a choice, so that you can then have to stop believing in God and telling the rest of us how to live Smile

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"Potter75" wrote:

Wasn't the message on bullying? I don't read much about Muslims bullying others in school, but I read a lot about "Christian" kids bullying gay kids and the like. I guess thats why. When bullying rhetoric is coming from the pulpit, it isn't surprising that young kids are taking it onto the playground.

As to you not believing in God just because you may not understand him......well, you are really arrogant. God is GOD, right, isn't he the first one to command that the human mind can't comprehend all that he is and can be?

I hope that science proves that sexuality is NOT a choice, so that you can then have to stop believing in God and telling the rest of us how to live Smile

I have never once heard bullying rhetoric come from the pulpit in my church. You do know that being gay is a stoning offense in Muslim countries right? Thats probably why you don't hear of too much bullying, since I don't think many of them are going to come out of the closet and risk stoning.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/01/iranian-regime-set-to-execute-two-homosexual-men-by-stoning/

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You are saying that they stone bullies? Or Gays? Because don't you think that a church that advocated STONING gay people is also advocating bullying them? I mean, isn't stoning like the ultimate bullying? They die.

Your church urges you to vote to deny gays equal rights, right? Your church preaches "hate the sin"? That is bullying, plain and simple.

Whether it is Muslims stoning gay people, or Christians bullying and denying equal rights to gay people, its ugly and its wrong. Whatever religion is hurting people in the name of God deserves to be ridiculed.

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You guys really dont think a grown man calling high school students pansy asses because they left the room bullying? I think some adult should have shut his mic off and asked him to leave the stage.
I also think he was wrong in making statements about Calista Gingrich, she has nothing to do with bullying

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"Potter75" wrote:

You are saying that they stone bullies? Or Gays? Because don't you think that a church that advocated STONING gay people is also advocating bullying them? I mean, isn't stoning like the ultimate bullying? They die.

Your church urges you to vote to deny gays equal rights, right? Your church preaches "hate the sin"? That is bullying, plain and simple.

Whether it is Muslims stoning gay people, or Christians bullying and denying equal rights to gay people, its ugly and its wrong. Whatever religion is hurting people in the name of God deserves to be ridiculed.

I'm saying that is probably why you don't hear about Muslims bullying Gays. That was your statement right, that Muslims must not bully Gays since you don't hear about it. You are right they don't bully them they just kill them.

My church doesn't teach anything about rights. They do teach that a marriage is between a man and a woman, as the Bible states. That doesn't deny anyone anything.

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He was being a bully. When he called the students names, he was out of line. The kids were there for an anti-bullying speech, not a anti-Christianity speech. Neither religion or politics had any place in a bully discussion, except to say we all need to be respectful of each others beliefs.

I don't have a problem at all with questioning religion, but it should always be done respectfully. I don't think an adult standing in front of a group of high school student, saying you're wrong! is respectful nor is it an appropriate setting for a discussion of that nature.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

I'm saying that is probably why you don't hear about Muslims bullying Gays. That was your statement right, that Muslims must not bully Gays since you don't hear about it. You are right they don't bully them they just kill them.

My church doesn't teach anything about rights. They do teach that a marriage is between a man and a woman, as the Bible states. That doesn't deny anyone anything.

He was speaking to HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS IN AMERICA. DO YOU HEAR ABOUT HIGH SCHOOL MUSLIMS STONING GAY PEOPLE? I don't. So why on earth would he be talking about that? However, in a predominately Judeo Christian citizenship, where the churches are preaching inequality and "hatred" of gay sex, these teens are bullying gay kids. Based on that, his message was directed at his audience. If he wanted to address stoning gays, I would assume he would have to get in front of the Taliban or something.

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I really agree with Kris, this guy was not questioning religion, he was flat out degrading it and anyone that chooses to follow it. I also do not believe a high school conference is a place to question religion anyways

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Why I'm wading into this I don't know...

Yes, in the OT stoning was the common punishment for all sorts of thing. Not so in the NT. Probably the most common example of this is the woman who ran to Jesus because she was caught in adultery and was being chased by people ready to stone her. What did Jesus say? He who is without sin can throw the first stone.... And the mob all left. But, following is the most important part of the story. What did he say to the woman? Go and sin no more. He acknowledged her sin and told her to stop doing it.

I believe homosexuality is a sin (based on the OT laws, which are really, really clear). But, I don't believe in stoning anyone (obviously!) or treating anyone badly because of their beliefs or actions, based on the NT example of Christ. A sin is a sin. Being mean and picking on someone is not better than any other sin. You can say you believe something is wrong without being cruel (as Jesus did in the example with the woman).

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Rather than write out my thoughts, I'll just quote someone who said it all, but probably did it much better than I could:

As you may already know, there is much controversy swirling around this video of Dan Savage the creator of the It Gets Better Project).

Such headlines as Gay Conservatives Demand Dan Savage Apologize for Anti-Christian Tirade, Christian students walk out as Dan Savage attacks the Bible, Anti-Bully Advocate Dan Savage Bullies High School Kids With Profane Bible Rant, and Rabbi compares Dan Savage's anti-Christian bigotry to Westboro Baptist Church tell the tale.

The controversy is due to Mr. Savage calling bull**** those parts of the Bible that throughout history been used by "Christians" unworthy of the name to justify the Holocaust, condone slavery, oppress women, and victimize gay people.

He was speaking on April 12 to attendees of the National High School Journalism Conference, sponsored by the Journalism Education Association and the National Scholastic Press Association. The four-day conference, featuring over 200 sessions, two keynote speakers (Dan and Jennifer Sizemore), more than a dozen featured speakers, and more events and activities than you can shake a pen at, was titled Journalism on the Edge.

The conference's promo material begins with:[INDENT]You are already on the Edge. Journalists have always lived on the edge. Deadlines, and the edge of time. Facts, and the edge of truth. Authority, and the edge of free expression. We balance on the edge of legitimate public interest and the interests of those who would rather we not publish.[/INDENT]And there, amongst all this journalistic edginess, was Dan Savage, being edgy. Just who does this podium-pounding pontificator peddling in people's perplexingly perverse predilections think he is, anyway?

I, for one, have no idea what the world has come to, when a person who has made his career out of speaking, in the most unadorned language possible, directly to great numbers of young people about some of the most important issues in their lives, dares to speak in unadorned language directly to a great number of young people about one of the most important issues in American life today.

Besides the fact that he was raised in a devoutly Catholic home and is the country's leading gay activist, who is Dan Savage to say anything at all about the ages-old Christian condemnation of gay people? So what if his claim is manifestly valid that nothing contributes more to the destruction of the lives of gay people than do Christians falsely and hypocritically using the Bible as an instrument of brutality? So what if he believes that among the most egregious of all Christian sins is daring to proclaim that God's love ends where their own fear and hatred begin? So what if every day, for decades on end, Dan Savage has dealt with young lives obliterated through violence informed and buttressed by the bedrock "Christian" view that gay people are less than human?

So what if any reasonably compassionate person should be expected to vigorously assert that it's time for all Christians to reject using the Bible as a means of justifying the persecution of an entire population whose only "crime" is to prefer to spend their lives with same-sex partners?

Why should any of that matter? What matters is that Dan Savage cursed. He said bull**** not once, but three times.
Three! That's one more than two! Which is two too many!

You know, it's almost like the people who put on this conference, as well as a small but now (thanks, media machine!) significant number of individuals who attended it, don't even know what the word "journalism" means.

Well, thank you, young people who walked out of Dan's speech the moment he began talking about the parts of the Bible to which he takes exception, for reminding us of what beats so passionately in the heart and soul of every true journalist. Speaking as a person who for twelve years made his living as a journalist, I admire your dedication to the journalist's creed: When you personally disagree with something someone is saying, get up and leave.

If that's not what Jesus meant by, "The truth shall set you free," I can't imagine what he did mean.

P.S. What immediately become a meme amongst Dan's critics is that those who walked out of his talk felt bullied by him. But that's impossible. People get bullied because of who they are: how they look and act, what they say and do. Perceived as being in some critical way weak or lacking, victims of bullies are selected for persecution; they are pulled from the pack before being pointedly and repeatedly victimized. The people who walked out during Dan's talk were not separated from their peers by anyone. They were content to do that themselves. They were not frightened or cowed. They were offended. They felt that by disparaging what amounts to their God, Dan had transgressed beyond their capacity for toleration. And they were pleased to show their intolerance of Dan's words by protesting against them in the manner they did. Theirs was not an act born of suffering. It was a proud show of disdain.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-shore/dan-savage-and-the-truth_b_1463390.html

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"kris_w" wrote:

Why I'm wading into this I don't know...

Yes, in the OT stoning was the common punishment for all sorts of thing. Not so in the NT. Probably the most common example of this is the woman who ran to Jesus because she was caught in adultery and was being chased by people ready to stone her. What did Jesus say? He who is without sin can throw the first stone.... And the mob all left. But, following is the most important part of the story. What did he say to the woman? Go and sin no more. He acknowledged her sin and told her to stop doing it.

I believe homosexuality is a sin (based on the OT laws, which are really, really clear). But, I don't believe in stoning anyone (obviously!) or treating anyone badly because of their beliefs or actions, based on the NT example of Christ. A sin is a sin. Being mean and picking on someone is not better than any other sin. You can say you believe something is wrong without being cruel (as Jesus did in the example with the woman).

Very well stated.

I am wondering what American church any of you think is teaching that you should go out and stone gay people? I have never heard of one. Any churches that I have ever been to would be very, very against such actions. While an action may be frowned upon and taught against, the person is loved, cared for, and supported. This goes the same for two unmarried people living together, an unwed mother, or two homosexuals. People, ALL people are welcome at our church and most churches that I know of. Everyone sins, whether it be someone that lies, steals, gossips, or whatever. If you did not welcome the sinners there would be no one in the churches.

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"Potter75" wrote:

He was speaking to HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS IN AMERICA. DO YOU HEAR ABOUT HIGH SCHOOL MUSLIMS STONING GAY PEOPLE? I don't. So why on earth would he be talking about that? However, in a predominately Judeo Christian citizenship, where the churches are preaching inequality and "hatred" of gay sex, these teens are bullying gay kids. Based on that, his message was directed at his audience. If he wanted to address stoning gays, I would assume he would have to get in front of the Taliban or something.

So you are telling me that he is not implying that high school Christians still believe in stoning people because they believe in the Bible with these comments?

“The Bible says that if your daughter’s not a virgin on her wedding night– if a woman is not a virgin on her wedding night– she shall be dragged to her father’s doorstep and stoned to death,” he says, yet “Callista Gingrich lives.”

Then, seemingly unable to resist a jab at Republicans, he added, “and there is no effort to amend state constitutions to make it legal to stone women to death on their wedding night if they’re not virgins. At least not yet– we don’t know where the GOP is going these days.”

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Dan Savage has been an awesome champion of gay rights! The entire "It Gets Better" idea is genius. Many teens need to know this because they don't have the life experience to realize how true it is.

That said, I've always thought he has been hypocritical because of the whole Santorum thing.

FFS it doesn't matter whether you choose to be something or not, that doesn't give others license to bully. It's just crazy to try to justify bullying someone because the bible tells you if they choose a certain behavior they get what they deserve. The bible also says murder, stealing, adultery, etc. are wrong, yet we still allow murderers to marry and we don't bully them in the name of the bible.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

So you are telling me that he is not implying that high school Christians still believe in stoning people because they believe in the Bible with these comments?

Are you actually reading my words? No, Im telling you that he sees and points out the hypocracy rampant amongst Christians ~ we all know no one is advocating stoning, but it is a great way to show the barbaric God of the OT which you believe in, and how so many christians directly and specifically miss Jesus message of love in your frenzy for obeying *some* of the rules to protect your own little flock and condemn the gays, the drug addicts, the prostitutes, the poor etc.. If course that made those little christians uncomfortable. It should. To call that bullying, however, is totally backwards.

Great, GREAT article, Stacey.

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How can anyone defend someone who calls teenagers who walk out of his rant pansy asses? I just don't get it.

And I'm sick of seeing all Christians lumped into the same group; it's downright ignorant to pretend like every church teaches the same thing.

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"wlillie" wrote:

How can anyone defend someone who calls teenagers who walk out of his rant pansy asses? I just don't get it.

And I'm sick of seeing all Christians lumped into the same group; it's downright ignorant to pretend like every church teaches the same thing.

I agree 100%. His status as an advocate for gay rights does not excuse his behavior in calling CHILDREN names. I think his "its get better" slogan is wonderful, but his behavior here has demeaned the importance of his message IMO.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Are you actually reading my words? No, Im telling you that he sees and points out the hypocracy rampant amongst Christians ~ we all know no one is advocating stoning, but it is a great way to show the barbaric God of the OT which you believe in, and how so many christians directly and specifically miss Jesus message of love in your frenzy for obeying *some* of the rules to protect your own little flock and condemn the gays, the drug addicts, the prostitutes, the poor etc.. If course that made those little christians uncomfortable. It should. To call that bullying, however, is totally backwards.

Great, GREAT article, Stacey.

So you are ok with it because some Christians bully gays, therefore all those Christians that walked out should be lumped into that category. So is not bullying to put down Christians because they deserve it. Gotcha.

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"wlillie" wrote:

How can anyone defend someone who calls teenagers who walk out of his rant pansy asses? I just don't get it.

And I'm sick of seeing all Christians lumped into the same group; it's downright ignorant to pretend like every church teaches the same thing.

I thought that you were a big proponent of free speech? Like, you didn't mind the 12 year old bullying the other 12 year old on the internet. Anyway, you are free to consider me ignorant while I consider you hateful. All fair.

When a majority of people in this country self identify as Christians I hardly see them as some overly put upon marginalized group. Perhaps if they would stop telling others how to live their life, and trying to legislate their bible into our bedrooms, less people would look upon them so negatively. Till then I have a hard time garnering a ton of sympathy ~ compare some person being called a "Pansy" and, well, the crusades of the millions of lifes lost in war and slavery in the name of Christianity and I can't really shed tears on their behalf.

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"Potter75" wrote:

I thought that you were a big proponent of free speech? Like, you didn't mind the 12 year old bullying the other 12 year old on the internet. Anyway, you are free to consider me ignorant while I consider you hateful. All fair.

When a majority of people in this country self identify as Christians I hardly see them as some overly put upon marginalized group. Perhaps if they would stop telling others how to live their life, and trying to legislate their bible into our bedrooms, less people would look upon them so negatively. Till then I have a hard time garnering a ton of sympathy ~ compare some person being called a "Pansy" and, well, the crusades of the millions of lifes lost in war and slavery in the name of Christianity and I can't really shed tears on their behalf.

I never said he should get sentenced to community service and given a misdeamoner, just that he was bullying. I also never said I didn't mind the 12 year old bullying on the internet. Why can't you debate without twisting words into something that wasn't said? I have never understood that about you. You are much too intelligent to need to use tacky tactics like that.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47237232/ns/us_news-giving/

Nobody has ever asked you to shed tears on their behalf; just to acknowledge that despite popular belief, a majority can be bullied by a minority.

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Confused now, am I tacky and ignorant or intelligent? How about you don't worry about calling me names, and concentrate on the debate. It would be very christian of you to stop trying to bully me with your name calling Wink

I hope and pray that I raise my children to have thick enough skin and to be exposed to enough schools of thought that they don't have to cover their ears and run out of a room crying "bullying" when someone has a different religious belief than them. This is the product of people who keep their children within little bubbles of their own religion and they have zero exposure to the fact that much of the world disagrees with them. Then they cry bully. Pathetic. I feel sorry for those sheltered kids. What a great opportunity to stand your ground and defend your religion instead of slinking away into a hallway then claim bullying and persecution to the papers.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Confused now, am I tacky and ignorant or intelligent? How about you don't worry about calling me names, and concentrate on the debate. It would be very christian of you to stop trying to bully me with your name calling Wink

I hope and pray that I raise my children to have thick enough skin and to be exposed to enough schools of thought that they don't have to cover their ears and run out of a room crying "bullying" when someone has a different religious belief than them. This is the product of people who keep their children within little bubbles of their own religion and they have zero exposure to the fact that much of the world disagrees with them. Then they cry bully. Pathetic. I feel sorry for those sheltered kids. What a great opportunity to stand your ground and defend your religion instead of slinking away into a hallway then claim bullying and persecution to the papers.

The point of it was that it was *Supposed* to be a speech on bullying, from the head of an organization on bullying. Yet he gives a speech specifically putting down people who are different than him. The whole idea is that you should be able to put aside your personal differences and respect other people instead of bullying them. So I guess to this guy that means it is ok to bully those who bully you.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Confused now, am I tacky and ignorant or intelligent? How about you don't worry about calling me names, and concentrate on the debate. It would be very christian of you to stop trying to bully me with your name calling Wink

I hope and pray that I raise my children to have thick enough skin and to be exposed to enough schools of thought that they don't have to cover their ears and run out of a room crying "bullying" when someone has a different religious belief than them. This is the product of people who keep their children within little bubbles of their own religion and they have zero exposure to the fact that much of the world disagrees with them. Then they cry bully. Pathetic. I feel sorry for those sheltered kids. What a great opportunity to stand your ground and defend your religion instead of slinking away into a hallway then claim bullying and persecution to the papers.

I didn't call you any names, but this post kind of explains a lot. Wink

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"wlillie" wrote:

I didn't call you any names, but this post kind of explains a lot. Wink

Again, what are you debating, with your little winky and your vague BS, Lillie? What does it explain, to you, or would you just rather be vague and snarky instead of having the courage and integrity to speak your mind. Passive agressiveness is so unattractive and weak.

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"wlillie" wrote:

How can anyone defend someone who calls teenagers who walk out of his rant pansy asses? I just don't get it.

And I'm sick of seeing all Christians lumped into the same group; it's downright ignorant to pretend like every church teaches the same thing.

He didn't call them pansy asses, he said walking out was a pansy assed thing to do. And he's right. They were attending a journalism conference with the theme "On the Edge." These are kids who supposedly aspire to being journalists, which is a career in which they can quite reasonably expect to find themselves on the receiving end of hatred from people who don't want secrets exposed. What are they going to do when an uncooperative source calls them names they don't like? Are they going to walk out in an indignant huff? Or are they going to do what a good journalist would do, which is ignore the rant and press on to get the story?

And I'm sick of seeing people who profess to be caring, loving Christians spewing hatred at others because of whom they feel drawn to love. Dan Savage was rightly pointing out that the ONLY law in Leviticus that modern Christians seem to care about is sodomy. If you can ignore the bulls--t about stoning non-virgins and eating pork and slavery and staying away during your period, then you should also be able to ignore the bulls--t about sodomy.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

The point of it was that it was *Supposed* to be a speech on bullying, from the head of an organization on bullying. Yet he gives a speech specifically putting down people who are different than him. The whole idea is that you should be able to put aside your personal differences and respect other people instead of bullying them. So I guess to this guy that means it is ok to bully those who bully you.

We saw three minutes out of a 20- or 30-minute speech, so saying that this was the point of his speech is ridiculous. The fact is that most bullying of gay people is based on religious beliefs. Mr. Savage has said that not addressing "the bible issue" when talking about bullying gay people is like talking about where butter comes from without mentioning the cow.

And this just occured to me... the first girl walked out barely before he'd finished his first sentence. I barely had time to comprehend what he was saying, and she'd picked up all her books & purse & was already walking out! That makes me think this was planned. Some of those kids went in there knowing that they were going to walk out when he talked about the bible. They weren't willing to listen -- which BTW is the number one job of a journalist, whether you like what you're hearing or not! -- and they weren't even willing to be gracious to an invited speaker to stay seated & roll their eyes & not clap when he was done. If I was their journalism teacher, I'd be horrified at that behavior.

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I agree that it seems planned. First of all, if you don't know who Dan Savage or his past or haven't read any of his work (like a good journalism student would have done) you would know that if you have a trigger fine sense of being offended, you should not be in there in the first place. I also wonder if him being gay had something to do with it ~ maybe they don't like to hear gay people speak up on behalf of their own rights or the inequalities forced upon by many in the religious community. Maybe it was a publicity stunt on behalf of the students to land them internships at Fox News Smile

Living in Seattle 15 years ago I am well acquainted with how outspoken and outrageous he is, they should have been, too, were they of such delicate sensibilities.

Love his response to this:

[LEFT]I would like to apologize for describing that walk out as a pansy-a---- move. I wasn’t calling the handful of students who left pansies (2800+ students, most of them Christian, stayed and listened), just the walk-out itself. But that’s a distinction without a difference—kinda like when religious conservatives tells their gay friends that they ‘love the sinner, hate the sin.’They’re often shocked when their gay friends get upset because, hey, they were making a distinction between the person (lovable!) and the person’s actions (not so much!). But gay people feel insulted by ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ because it is insulting. Likewise, my use of ‘pansy-a----’ was insulting, it was name-calling, and it was wrong. And I apologize for saying it.But is Savage sorry for his analysis of the bible? No.“I did not attack Christianity. I attacked hypocrisy," he says.[/LEFT]

Read more celebrity gossip at: http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2012/05/dan-savage-clarifies-condemnation-of-pansy-***-christians/#ixzz1tdpf77BF

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"Spacers" wrote:

And I'm sick of seeing people who profess to be caring, loving Christians spewing hatred at others because of whom they feel drawn to love. Dan Savage was rightly pointing out that the ONLY law in Leviticus that modern Christians seem to care about is sodomy. If you can ignore the bulls--t about stoning non-virgins and eating pork and slavery and staying away during your period, then you should also be able to ignore the bulls--t about sodomy.

I never use Leviticus when speaking about homosexuality for that very reason. That was the old law. What is ignored is that it is also listed as a sin in the New Testament. There seemed to be a lot of hatred spewing in that speech but it wasn't coming from the Christians. I think maybe he should pluck the log out of his own eye before trying to take a splinter out of someone else's.

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I am by no means a bible scholar but several things I have read state there is no direct mention of speaking out against homosexuality.

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"Jessica1980" wrote:

I am by no means a bible scholar but several things I have read state there is no direct mention of speaking out against homosexuality.

By all means decide for yourself what these verses mean. They are pretty clear to me.

1 Timothy 1:9-11
9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

1 Corinthians 6:8-10
8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

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So to the Corinthians passage...they are including with a bunch of other sinners so why do gay people get singled out. Haven't heard any bully drunkards lately.

First passage...can't get into. Homosexuality was not a term used until the late 19th century so I have to say that this is a current interpretation and not really what God/Jesus has said. That is the argument amongst many theologians. We are interpreting what we think certain words mean when they might not mean anything like that at all.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

By all means decide for yourself what these verses mean. They are pretty clear to me.

What I'm reading there is that those people aren't going to get into heaven. Big whoop. That's for me & my fellow heathens to worry about, not you. Leviticus is the only place in the bible where it says it's OK for any person to punish anyone else for those kinds of behaviors.

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"Jessica1980" wrote:

So to the Corinthians passage...they are including with a bunch of other sinners so why do gay people get singled out. Haven't heard any bully drunkards lately.

First passage...can't get into. Homosexuality was not a term used until the late 19th century so I have to say that this is a current interpretation and not really what God/Jesus has said. That is the argument amongst many theologians. We are interpreting what we think certain words mean when they might not mean anything like that at all.

Since I don't agree with bullying period, of course I don't agree with anyone being singled out for any reason. I have said many times a sin is a sin and homosexuality is not any worse than the other sins listed in the same verse. It is still pretty clear to me what is being said, especially when you add the context of what Jesus said about marriage being between male and female.

Matthew 19:4-5
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female',5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh?

As for interpretation, it is not that hard for me to believe that the God who created the world could manage to get some men to translate the Bible to say what he wanted it to say. Other translations may not use that exact word but they all use similar words. All sexual acts outside of marriage are listed, and since marriage is between a male and female, homosexuality would fall in that category.

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"Spacers" wrote:

What I'm reading there is that those people aren't going to get into heaven. Big whoop. That's for me & my fellow heathens to worry about, not you. Leviticus is the only place in the bible where it says it's OK for any person to punish anyone else for those kinds of behaviors.

So who said it was ok to punish gays? Jesus told the woman who was about to be stoned for adultery to "Go and sin no more". Why would any other sin be any different?

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Gloria, you, personally, bully an entire group of Americans when you vote to keep them from having equal rights. So knock off this "i don't believe in bullying" bit. You believe in and participate in systemic, institutionalized bullying.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Gloria, you, personally, bully an entire group of Americans when you vote to keep them from having equal rights. So knock off this "i don't believe in bullying" bit. You believe in and participate in systemic, institutionalized bullying.

I'm not keeping anyone from any rights. I believe and vote that marriage is between a man and a woman. Its that simple. It is the goverment who decides what rights to associate to marriage, not me.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

So who said it was ok to punish gays? Jesus told the woman who was about to be stoned for adultery to "Go and sin no more". Why would any other sin be any different?

Gosh, I'm really getting tired of having to point out to someone who claims to be a bible-believer what the bible says. Leviticus 20:13 says, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death."

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"Potter75" wrote:

Gloria, you, personally, bully an entire group of Americans when you vote to keep them from having equal rights. So knock off this "i don't believe in bullying" bit. You believe in and participate in systemic, institutionalized bullying.

:clappy:

"GloriaInTX" wrote:

I'm not keeping anyone from any rights. I believe and vote that marriage is between a man and a woman. Its that simple. It is the goverment who decides what rights to associate to marriage, not me.

Yes you are. Marriage has been defined as a universal civil right by the United Nations, and it's been recognized as a "vital personal right" by SCOTUS. In Loving v. Virginia, Chief Justice Earl Warren wrote for the majority:[INDENT]
The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men ...
[/INDENT]

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