Death Penalty

19 posts / 0 new
Last post
Minx_Kristi's picture
Joined: 01/02/09
Posts: 1261
Death Penalty

I'm almost 100% positive that a debate must've already taken place regarding the Death Penalty, however I missed it.

Missouri Man Executed For Teenager's Murder

Are you for or against, and why?

xx

KimPossible's picture
Joined: 05/24/06
Posts: 3312

"Minx_Kristi" wrote:

I'm almost 100% positive that a debate must've already taken place regarding the Death Penalty, however I missed it.

Missouri Man Executed For Teenager's Murder

Are you for or against, and why?

xx

Horrendous crime to read about, made me literally ill to my stomach.

But I'm against the death penalty.

*praying this doesn't magically morph into an abortion debate*

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 4100

I'm opposed to the death penalty. It doesn't deter violent crime, it's not applied fairly to rich vs. poor or black vs. white, the mandatory appeals waste our court resources and cost too much money, and I honestly think it lets people get off the hook a lot easier than they deserve.

ETA: I also think the fact that, despite all the supposed protections, innocent people have been executed is unconscionable.

KimPossible's picture
Joined: 05/24/06
Posts: 3312

"Spacers" wrote:

I'm opposed to the death penalty. It doesn't deter violent crime, it's not applied fairly to rich vs. poor or black vs. white, the mandatory appeals waste our court resources and cost too much money, and I honestly think it lets people get off the hook a lot easier than they deserve.

I agree with all of this, but just curious if all of this was not true, if:

It did deter violent crime
If it was applied equally among all people
And cost less than lifetime imprisonment

Would you then be a proponent?

I would not.

Just wondering, since this is a recurring debate and we need new and interesting spins on the subject Smile

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 4100

Probably not because of the getting off easy part. I think having to sit in a room alone for 23 hours a day with nothing but your thoughts, knowing what you did to get there, would be pure hell and that's what I want murderers to go through. That, or whatever it was they did to their victims. I don't think they should get TV or books or anything else in their cells, either.

GloriaInTX's picture
Joined: 07/29/08
Posts: 4116

"Spacers" wrote:

Probably not because of the getting off easy part. I think having to sit in a room alone for 23 hours a day with nothing but your thoughts, knowing what you did to get there, would be pure hell and that's what I want murderers to go through. That, or whatever it was they did to their victims. I don't think they should get TV or books or anything else in their cells, either.

Except that isn't what happens. We live in a country where you can murder your wife and then decide you are the wrong gender and we have to pay for your sex change surgery.

KimPossible's picture
Joined: 05/24/06
Posts: 3312

"Spacers" wrote:

Probably not because of the getting off easy part. I think having to sit in a room alone for 23 hours a day with nothing but your thoughts, knowing what you did to get there, would be pure hell and that's what I want murderers to go through. That, or whatever it was they did to their victims. I don't think they should get TV or books or anything else in their cells, either.

Sorry i meant to include the getting off easy part.

What i'm mainly asking is...is the reason you are against the death penalty strictly for the reasons you mentioned? Or do you have any ethical issues with determining its okay to kill someone for heinous crimes.

Are your reasons solely circumstantial (due to things such as ineffectiveness, too costly, to easy for the criminal) or do you have a belief that there is something innately wrong with determining the moment of death for these people.

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 4100

I don't believe that a civilized society should be in the business of methodically killing its citizens. I'd have no problem with hog-tying them and letting the victims' families do whatever they wish with them. That actually seems more just and fair to me than the quick & peaceful death they get from lethal injection. A bit of their own medicine, so to speak. But only if there's absolutely no question at all that that person is actually *the* murderer. We've put people to death for simply being in the same room when someone else commits a murder, and that doesn't sit well with me.

mom3girls's picture
Joined: 01/09/07
Posts: 1535

I dont believe we should be deciding the moment of death for anyone, period.

But I also think most times that sitting in a cell for the rest of your live is a harsher punishment

KimPossible's picture
Joined: 05/24/06
Posts: 3312

Thanks for answering my questions Stacey.

For the record my stance on the death penalty is that it is always wrong and always will be, regardless of how effective it is, how costly it is or how much mental anguish it does or doesn't inflict upon the criminal.

I wouldn't care if it was the most effective deterrent to violent crimes there was, I think its inherently wrong to determine when someone else should die aside from protecting your own life.

I also think the legal system is not about making criminals suffer...our legal system should be strictly focused on societal safety.

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 4100

Yeah, I tend to let my emotions into death penalty thoughts a bit too much. My great-grandfather was murdered by someone who was let off without even a slap on the wrist, was never even arrested, whose social standing apparently made him untouchable. As much as I'd love to believe the death penalty is always wrong and always will be, I'm still torn by wanting some kind of justice for my great-grandfather that he didn't get from the courts, kwim?

Minx_Kristi's picture
Joined: 01/02/09
Posts: 1261

"KimPossible" wrote:

I think its inherently wrong to determine when someone else should die aside from protecting your own life.

The murderer chose when the victim's life ended, so why can't the law decide their fate?

Also, are their facts regarding rich v poor and black v white?

I personally agree with the death penalty, mainly because I believe if you take the life of another then why should you have the right to live?

That being said, I also agree with Stacey in that I think they should be kept alive to suffer. Not to just sit in their cell for 23 hours a day, but they should be physically tortured the same way they tortured their victim. (or killed the same way!)

I also understand why people are against it, especially if they have the wrong person.

Stacey, I am sorry to hear about your great-grandfather. I cannot even imagine losing a loved one at the hands of someone else!

xx

Joined: 03/08/03
Posts: 3189

I am 100% with Kim on the death penalty. Even when my emotions want vengeance, I think it's wrong. And I think that it harms us, as a society, to commit murder. I might in my heart want to kill someone who has committed heinous crimes, and I might be glad in my heart if that person is dead, but I still think it's morally wrong for us to have a law that makes it okay to kill someone who is already at our mercy.

GloriaInTX's picture
Joined: 07/29/08
Posts: 4116

I think when you commit a crime you have to pay the consequences for that action. Sometimes the consequences are death. I do think it is a deterrent in some cases. Maybe not in a murder committed in the heat of the moment, but for a premeditated murder such as someone who plans to kill their spouse for the insurance money or something I think it is a deterrent to know that if they are caught they could be put to death. It is hard to prove deterrence because there is no way to know how many people didn't commit a murder because of the death penalty. I do think the death penalty should only be applied when the evidence is overwhelming and there is no doubt that the person intended to kill the victim.

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 4100

"Minx_Kristi" wrote:

Stacey, I am sorry to hear about your great-grandfather. I cannot even imagine losing a loved one at the hands of someone else!

xx

He died before I was born, so I didn't actually live through the experience myself. Interestingly, my family's oral history over the intervening 75 or so years actually warped the reality of what happened, and completely eliminated the fact that it was known who killed him. I stumbled upon that fact in old newspapers when researching family history a couple of years ago. I've actually toyed with the idea of looking up that man's relatives to see what their version of the story is and what it did to him.

KimPossible's picture
Joined: 05/24/06
Posts: 3312

"Minx_Kristi" wrote:

The murderer chose when the victim's life ended, so why can't the law decide their fate?

If it was wrong for the murderer to do then its wrong for anyone else to do too, like the people who run the government. You can't say "You don't get to decide when someone dies...but I do, and I choose you, now" Well i mean i know legally you can in places, but I don't think ethically you can.

Also, are their facts regarding rich v poor and black v white?

Oh i'm sure there are, but i don't really care about them because while they are improtant to point out they are ultimately inconsequential to me when it comes to the basic question of "Is the death penalty okay"

I personally agree with the death penalty, mainly because I believe if you take the life of another then why should you have the right to live?

Assuming you have the inherent knowledge to determine this is a satisfactory sceanrio in which to take someones life is no better than the murderer's opinion that they have the inherent knowledge to determine when someone should die.

You are committing the same crime.....killing someone else because YOU feel its appropriate to....based on your own criteria. How can you possibly and infallibly know that its acceptable to kill someone because they killed someone else or raped someone else or both. Lets not ignore the fact that we even take it upon ourselves to determine "this persons' murder is death penalty worthy" and "this persons' is not"

The whole thing just totally disturbs me. Disturbs isn't a strong enough word really.

Stacey I'm sorry to hear about your great-grandfather too. I think its very natural to have strong feelings to see someone suffer for what they've done when its that close and personal. I just personally believe that that is not what our justice system is supposed to be in place for. It sounds like there are all sorts of things wrong with the case you speak of and that many things that should have happened a long the way didn't. I would imagine thats hard to deal with emotionally.

Joined: 03/08/03
Posts: 3189

"KimPossible" wrote:

If it was wrong for the murderer to do then its wrong for anyone else to do too, like the people who run the government. You can't say "You don't get to decide when someone dies...but I do, and I choose you, now" Well i mean i know legally you can in places, but I don't think ethically you can.

Oh i'm sure there are, but i don't really care about them because while they are improtant to point out they are ultimately inconsequential to me when it comes to the basic question of "Is the death penalty okay"

Assuming you have the inherent knowledge to determine this is a satisfactory sceanrio in which to take someones life is no better than the murderer's opinion that they have the inherent knowledge to determine when someone should die.

You are committing the same crime.....killing someone else because YOU feel its appropriate to....based on your own criteria. How can you possibly and infallibly know that its acceptable to kill someone because they killed someone else or raped someone else or both. Lets not ignore the fact that we even take it upon ourselves to determine "this persons' murder is death penalty worthy" and "this persons' is not"

The whole thing just totally disturbs me. Disturbs isn't a strong enough word really.

Stacey I'm sorry to hear about your great-grandfather too. I think its very natural to have strong feelings to see someone suffer for what they've done when its that close and personal. I just personally believe that that is not what our justice system is supposed to be in place for. It sounds like there are all sorts of things wrong with the case you speak of and that many things that should have happened a long the way didn't. I would imagine thats hard to deal with emotionally.

100%.

Joined: 08/17/04
Posts: 2226

I used to be pro death penalty when I was younger, especially following the murder of my friend. Then I stepped outside of that and realized I wasn't any better than the guys that murdered him and I didn't want to support my government feeling that way either.

ftmom's picture
Joined: 09/04/06
Posts: 1538

"KimPossible" wrote:

Thanks for answering my questions Stacey.

For the record my stance on the death penalty is that it is always wrong and always will be, regardless of how effective it is, how costly it is or how much mental anguish it does or doesn't inflict upon the criminal.

I wouldn't care if it was the most effective deterrent to violent crimes there was, I think its inherently wrong to determine when someone else should die aside from protecting your own life.

I also think the legal system is not about making criminals suffer...our legal system should be strictly focused on societal safety.

The bolded is how I feel too, but I actually use that as an argument FOR the death penalty. If we know for sure someone is guilty of a horrible crime and they will never be released back into society, then the death penalty simply removes them from the equation. I think of it a little bit the same as a terminally ill patient. They will never enjoy their life again, be a drain on society etc. It is not about vengeance for me.

I think this has more to do with how I view death then how I view our legal system. I am not super religious, but I believe in a benevolent god who doesnt want his children to suffer, so I dont think these people are going to hell or a similar place. I dont know what happens, think of it more as a fade to nothing.

For the record, I am Canadian and have never had to deal with the death penalty as a practical reality, only in the abstract, so that probably colours my view of it.

As a 'almost' off topic aside, my great, great....whatever guarded Luis Riel the night before his execution. Its really my families only claim to fame Smile