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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    People back when the country was founded were people just like we are people today. Universal principles like not killing others were the same 2,000 years ago as they are today. I do not believe that those principles are or can become out dated. You might be working hard to get the laws and principles to change, but there are others that are working just as hard to protect them.
    We cannot impeded on others' rights in order to satisfy our own. People then left Europe to escape this very philosophy, so i can not believe it was to escape there to impose the same oppressions on others.

    You see, the way it is, and this is the hard fact - today Christians might be in majority by formal affiliation, but in some years, that could very well not be the case. How would anyone like it if someone from some other religion who had enough power came in an flip flopped the laws. I am positive there would be so angry people. So the best policy in the midst of such diversity is to leave for fear that you by its endorsement you may be the oppressed. So what is fair is fair. In lots of places being white is a minority now,msomething 100 years ago i am sure no one would have imagined.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    There is always going to be a law that doesn't match with some religion. The Muslim man that killed his daughters in Fort Worth thinks he did nothing wrong because honor killing is allowed by his religion. So there will never be a perfect society, we can only do what the majority thinks is the right thing. The majority of this country right now is Christian, so most of the laws are going to reflect Christian values. That is just the way it is.
    I disagree. A lot of our laws are based on basic human values which Christians don't have a monopoly on. It isn't the law or the 10 Commandments that keep most people from killing. Ironically, there are many Christians in prison for murder - their the laws nor their religion seemed to deter for them.

    Several of the nations with the lowest murder rate are not Christian nations, yet the nations with the highest murder rates happen to have a Christian majority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by myyams View Post
    We cannot impeded on others' rights in order to satisfy our own. People then left Europe to escape this very philosophy, so i can not believe it was to escape there to impose the same oppressions on others.

    You see, the way it is, and this is the hard fact - today Christians might be in majority by formal affiliation, but in some years, that could very well not be the case. How would anyone like it if someone from some other religion who had enough power came in an flip flopped the laws. I am positive there would be so angry people. So the best policy in the midst of such diversity is to leave for fear that you by its endorsement you may be the oppressed. So what is fair is fair. In lots of places being white is a minority now,msomething 100 years ago i am sure no one would have imagined.
    I did not say that our country should be run be religion. Just that the people trying to change existing laws should know that not everyone wants the laws changed. They don't get to be changed just because they bother a few people.

    As an aside, (just in case you would find it interesting, not related to the debate at all) in the area that I live in I would very much be a minority. If my girls went to public school they would be the only white child in their class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    I did not say that our country should be run be religion. Just that the people trying to change existing laws should know that not everyone wants the laws changed. They don't get to be changed just because they bother a few people.

    As an aside, (just in case you would find it interesting, not related to the debate at all) in the area that I live in I would very much be a minority. If my girls went to public school they would be the only white child in their class.
    Right, but if laws are oppressing then it doesnt matter how many people dont want the law changed. I mean, gay marriage to many Christians (and some others) is wrong, but it doesnt apparently matter because we are moving in a direction where as a whole, society feels gay marriage should be allowed. We might not be there completely, but who would disagree that rights are slowly opening up compared to preqvious eras?

    54 percent are for gay marriage and 44 percent against. I would say this is pretty landmark, no? Id say yes based on the fact that we have so many christians here.

    Public opinion of same-sex marriage in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    I did not say that our country should be run be religion. Just that the people trying to change existing laws should know that not everyone wants the laws changed. They don't get to be changed just because they bother a few people.

    As an aside, (just in case you would find it interesting, not related to the debate at all) in the area that I live in I would very much be a minority. If my girls went to public school they would be the only white child in their class.
    Right, but if laws are oppressing then it doesnt matter how many people dont want the law changed. I mean, gay marriage to many Christians (and some others) is wrong, but it doesnt apparently matter because we are moving in a direction where as a whole, society feels gay marriage should be allowed. We might not be there completely, but who would disagree that rights are slowly opening up compared to preqvious eras?

    54 percent are for gay marriage and 44 percent against. I would say this is pretty landmark, no? Id say yes based on the fact that we have so many christians here.

    Public opinion of same-sex marriage in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    And as an aside, in your other ethnicity Dominated area, what the laws protected everyone except your daughters because of the attitude of why bother with the 1 in so many when we feel x due to being in majority? That seems pretty stinky to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    That is like saying which came first the chicken or the egg. Most of western society developed out of Christian practices. So how can you really separate the two? Many human societies also have laws that allow honor killings, killing babies born out of wedlock, selling women and other things that I can definitely say aren't good for society. I'm not sure how Christianity didn't have a part in the fact that those things aren't acceptable in our society but are acceptable in areas where Christianity is not predominant.
    If you are going to say that, for example, the laws about not killing babies born out of wedlock or honor killings or selling women are specific to Christianity or inspired by Christianity, then it would be helpful if you could show me in the bible, in the NT where it speaks out against those things. I googled "What does the bible say about infanticide" and couldn't find anywhere that Jesus spoke out against it. I did find some stuff in the OT that seems to be for infanticide in certain cases, but we agreed to toss out the OT.

    I agree with myyams "Do not murder" is a human value, not a Christian one. Sure, you can find societies where murder are commonplace....come to think of it, it's not all that uncommon in ours....so I don't think that means those societies really embrace murder, unless you want to argue that ours does too.

    Couldn't find anything specific to selling women, but I did find some stuff about slavery. Some verses seem to be for it

    example: Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, - Ephesians 6:5-6

    And some seem to be against it:
    For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. -Galatians 5:1

    So that's a toss up.

    After you show where the bible talks about these things, you would need to show that other cultures/religions do not have laws about these same things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    If you are going to say that, for example, the laws about not killing babies born out of wedlock or honor killings or selling women are specific to Christianity or inspired by Christianity, then it would be helpful if you could show me in the bible, in the NT where it speaks out against those things. I googled "What does the bible say about infanticide" and couldn't find anywhere that Jesus spoke out against it. I did find some stuff in the OT that seems to be for infanticide in certain cases, but we agreed to toss out the OT.
    When King Herod killed all the babies looking for Jesus it definitely was portrayed as an evil thing not a good thing.

    Matthew 2
    16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:

    18 ?A voice is heard in Ramah,
    weeping and great mourning,
    Rachel weeping for her children
    and refusing to be comforted,
    because they are no more.?[d]
    I would classify this as an honor killing.

    John 8
    2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, ?Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?? 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

    But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, ?Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.? 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

    9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, ?Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you??

    11 ?No one, sir,? she said.

    ?Then neither do I condemn you,? Jesus declared. ?Go now and leave your life of sin.?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    Couldn't find anything specific to selling women, but I did find some stuff about slavery. Some verses seem to be for it

    example: Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, - Ephesians 6:5-6

    And some seem to be against it:
    For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. -Galatians 5:1

    So that's a toss up.
    No one chooses to be a slave, that verse only tells them to make the best of their situation if you are a slave. Slave traders are condemned though.

    1 Timothy 1
    8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers?and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me
    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    After you show where the bible talks about these things, you would need to show that other cultures/religions do not have laws about these same things.
    There are plenty of Muslim countries that allow honor killings. It is common knowledge so I won't post anything.

    I watched a special on TV about how all the babies in Ethiopia are being killed that are born out of wedlock and it is heartbreaking.

    To the modern Western mind, the idea of parents deliberately killing their own children ? abandoning them to die of starvation, exposure or predation, or throwing them in rivers ? sounds almost unimaginably cruel and heartless. We tend to forget that infanticide by these methods was commonplace in Europe and America until the late 19th century, and that England was particularly notorious for it. Effective contraception and legal abortion curbed the practice in the West, although it does still occur on a small scale.

    Scholars of infanticide have found it so widespread in human history, across all cultures and continents, that they have deemed it normal human behaviour. The killing of newborn girls is still rife in China, India, Bangladesh and other parts of Asia, even as cheap sonograms and abortions are taking over as a way to get rid of unwanted daughters. In Africa, mothers without access to contraception or abortion will sometimes kill babies they don?t want, or can?t afford, but only in a few remote areas on the continent are people systematically killing babies for magical reasons, in the belief that they carry an evil curse.
    Saving the condemned children of Ethiopia - Telegraph

    Slavery still exists in mutiple places

    They do not wear chains, nor are they branded with the mark of their masters, but slaves still exist in Mauritania.

    In the Saharan Islamic state, a centuries-old system of bondage is resisting the rise of democracy in the largely desert former French colony.

    Herding camels or goats out in the sun-blasted dunes of the Sahara, or serving hot mint tea to guests in the richly carpeted villas of Nouakchott, Mauritanian slaves serve their masters and are passed on as family chattels from generation to generation.

    They may number thousands, anti-slavery activists say. A shocking anomaly in the 21st century, this is widely accepted in a racially diverse, hierarchical society dominated by a Moorish elite and a brand of Islam that preaches submission.

    "It's like having sheep or goats. If a woman is a slave, her descendants are slaves," said Boubacar Messaoud, who was born a slave and is now his country's leading anti-slavery campaigner.

    He says a 1981 decree outlawing slavery is a dead letter and slavery is alive in Mauritania, with all its manifestations of non-paid work, punishment, forced sex and other abuses.
    Slavery still exists in Mauritania | Reuters
    Last edited by GloriaInTX; 10-18-2012 at 11:28 AM.
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    I don't really find those bible verses to be convincing to be specifically speaking out against infanticide or honor killings. The "he who is without sin" story has always been presented to me as a parable about judgement and the dangers therein. The Herod thing; of course it was a bad thing - he was trying to kill the Jesus is Jesus's book! LOL The slavery thing seems to be more than just "make the best of a bad situation." I mean, obey your masters as you would Christ? That's like setting up slave masters to literally be the lords over their slaves. I would also say that you can easily come to the conclusion of "no honor killings, no infanticide, and no slavery" with a sense of empathy and compassion for your fellow man. Christianity does not have the corner stone on this. 200 years ago in this "Christian" country, Christian slave owners were happy enough to sell, beat, rape, and kill their slaves as they saw fit and the bible hasn't changed since then, so I don't necessarily believe that Christianity is the only influence that convinced us to treat each other a little better. Even as we speak people are using the bible as justification to deny their fellow citizens equal rights under the law, so I'd say our Christian compassion and sense of social justice is still evolving.

    But of course, all of this is open to interpretation. The only point I have been trying to make is that if you don't think we should have laws that are based solely on someone else's holy book, perhaps you could try to keep that perspective in mind when you want to make laws that are based solely on your holy book. It's just possible that I feel the same way about making laws based solely on Christianity as you would feel about someone making laws based soley on the OT, yes?
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    But of course, all of this is open to interpretation. The only point I have been trying to make is that if you don't think we should have laws that are based solely on someone else's holy book, perhaps you could try to keep that perspective in mind when you want to make laws that are based solely on your holy book. It's just possible that I feel the same way about making laws based solely on Christianity as you would feel about someone making laws based soley on the OT, yes?
    And my point is that is going to happen no matter what because moral values affect law. The definition of what is right or wrong is almost always shaped by religious views. There are always going to be some religious beliefs that conflicts with current law. Laws are made based on what the majority of the current populace think are good for society. You can bet that if this country had a Muslim majority the laws would be different. That is just a fact. That is why I am very thankful that our country was formed based on Christian values.
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    I do not think that if there were a non Christian majority forming the US or currently that our laws would be different. I was raised as a Catholic and I disagree with many of their "moral" values because I don't feel that it meets my moral values. So my religious beliefs do not always influence my moral/ethical decisions because I think through my own feelings on a subject. I have many personal feelings towards things that I would not think should be law either.

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