Death Penalty for Rebellious Children

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Alissa_Sal's picture
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Death Penalty for Rebellious Children

Charlie Fuqua, Arkansas Legislative Candidate, Endorses Death Penalty For Rebellious Children In Book

Charlie Fuqua, the Republican candidate for the Arkansas House of Representatives who called for expelling Muslims from the United States in his book, also wrote in support for instituting the death penalty for "rebellious children."

In "God's Law," Fuqua's 2012 book, the candidate wrote that while parents love their children, a process could be set up to allow for the institution of the death penalty for "rebellious children," according to the Arkansas Times. Fuqua, who is anti-abortion, points out that the course of action involved in sentencing a child to death is described in the Bible and would involve judicial approval. While it is unlikely that many parents would seek to have their children killed by the government, Fuqua wrote, such power would serve as a way to stop rebellious children.

According to the Arkansas Times, Fuqua wrote:
[QUOTE]The maintenance of civil order in society rests on the foundation of family discipline. Therefore, a child who disrespects his parents must be permanently removed from society in a way that gives an example to all other children of the importance of respect for parents. The death penalty for rebellious children is not something to be taken lightly. The guidelines for administering the death penalty to rebellious children are given in Deut 21:18-21:

This passage does not give parents blanket authority to kill their children. They must follow the proper procedure in order to have the death penalty executed against their children. I cannot think of one instance in the Scripture where parents had their child put to death. Why is this so? Other than the love Christ has for us, there is no greater love then [sic] that of a parent for their child. The last people who would want to see a child put to death would be the parents of the child. Even so, the Scrpture [sic] provides a safe guard to protect children from parents who would wrongly exercise the death penalty against them. Parents are required to bring their children to the gate of the city. The gate of the city was the place where the elders of the city met and made judicial pronouncements. In other words, the parents were required to take their children to a court of law and lay out their case before the proper judicial authority, and let the judicial authority determine if the child should be put to death. I know of many cases of rebellious children, however, I cannot think of one case where I believe that a parent had given up on their child to the point that they would have taken their child to a court of law and asked the court to rule that the child be put to death. Even though this procedure would rarely be used, if it were the law of land, it would give parents authority. Children would know that their parents had authority and it would be a tremendous incentive for children to give proper respect to their parents.

In the same book, Fuqua advocated for expelling Muslims from the U.S., saying it would solve what he described as the "Muslim problem." Fuqua, who has been backed by the state GOP and is seeking a comeback, has found himself under attack by Republicans since his comments surfaced at the same time it was reported that state Rep. Jon Hubbard (R-Jonesboro) endorsed slavery in his book. Fuqua told the Associated Press that he was surprised by the reaction to his writings on Muslims.

"I think my views are fairly well-accepted by most people," Fuqua said to AP.

Fuqua declined to answer questions from The Huffington Post.

"I'm not going to talk to you," he said before hanging up.

On his campaign blog, Fuqua highlights his service on the Children and Families Committee while a member of the Arkansas Legislature in 1997. He also describes liberals and Muslims as the "anti-Christ" and says he believes they are conspiring to create a "bloody revolution."

"There is a strange alliance between the liberal left and the Muslim religion. It may be that since both are the enemies of Christianity, that they both believe that, my enemy's enemy is my friend," Fuqua writes. "However there are several similarities between the two. Both are antichrist in that they both deny that Jesus is God in the flesh of man, and the savior of mankind. They both also hold that their cause should take over the entire world through violent, bloody, revolution."
[/QUOTE]

Thoughts? Biggrin

KimPossible's picture
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:shock:

smsturner's picture
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Some people need their mouths taped shut. This man is downright creepy. Does he have kids? I didn't see... I really hope children weren't subject to his rule... eep.

Alissa_Sal's picture
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My serious question is, if you believe that the laws should reflect biblical concepts, like "Gay people shouldn't be allowed to legally marry" then where do you draw the line, and say "Okay, that may be in the bible, but we aren't going to write that into the laws." Or do you? Obviously this guy doens't think you do draw the line, or anyway, you don't draw the line before "Giving disrespectful children the chair."

mom3girls's picture
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hmmm, not sure what words, pretty scary

GloriaInTX's picture
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I think the media worked really hard to come up with some lunatic Christian who holds these views, when this is a view that is normally held by Muslims. There is a heartbreaking story that happened here in the Dallas area just a couple years ago that a father killed his two teenagle daughters, and he has never been caught. I can't help but believe that he is being hidden by an Islamic community that agrees with what he did.

Texas 'honor killing' suspect Yaser Said could be hiding in plain sight as NYC cabbie, private investigator says | Fox News

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

I think the media worked really hard to come up with some lunatic Christian who holds these views, when this is a view that is normally held by Muslims. There is a heartbreaking story that happened here in the Dallas area just a couple years ago that a father killed his two teenagle daughters, and he has never been caught. I can't help but believe that he is being hidden by an Islamic community that agrees with what he did.

Texas 'honor killing' suspect Yaser Said could be hiding in plain sight as NYC cabbie, private investigator says | Fox News

Seriously????? It's the media's fault for reporting that a candidate currently running for HofR wrote a book supporting the death penalty for rebellious kids? I would think that would be something that the people of AR would want to know before they vote.

I really would like some insight on my question though. If you believe that our laws should be biblical, how do you decide which ones to enact (like no gay marriage) and which ones to ignore (like the death penalty for rebellious kids.)

GloriaInTX's picture
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"Alissa_Sal" wrote:

My serious question is, if you believe that the laws should reflect biblical concepts, like "Gay people shouldn't be allowed to legally marry" then where do you draw the line, and say "Okay, that may be in the bible, but we aren't going to write that into the laws." Or do you? Obviously this guy doens't think you do draw the line, or anyway, you don't draw the line before "Giving disrespectful children the chair."

That law in the Bible is no longer in effect, just like the laws about sacrificing animals. If he is going to abide by that law than he should be sacrificing animals too.

GloriaInTX's picture
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"Alissa_Sal" wrote:

I really would like some insight on my question though. If you believe that our laws should be biblical, how do you decide which ones to enact (like no gay marriage) and which ones to ignore (like the death penalty for rebellious kids.)

That was Jewish law as was the whole old Testament. Jesus fulfilled that law and it is no longer in effect. Jesus himself said that marriage is between a male and female.

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I doubt that you will find a sane person that thinks you should execute children. (Abortion debate aside)

In regards to your question. I can not speak for all religions, but what I am familiar with is that when Christ came, the old law (Old Testament) was made void, and the New Testament was written. Homosexuality is spoken about in both the Old and the New Testament. There are some religions that follow the old testament. I am a Baptist, and we follow the New Testament.

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So if you personally were going to write laws out of the bible, it would only be the New Testament. Thanks for answering. Smile

Rivergallery's picture
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Let me take a real look at this.
What does he mean by child--- anyone under 18.. under 30? What age?
I am pro-death penalty for violent crimes like murder, rape, and child abuse. Depending on the crime and his definition of rebellious I could be pro-death penalty for a "child".
IE a serial killer at 18.. 17.. 16.. I would say yes. 15 under would be harder.. the younger you go the more blurry the lines for accountability get.. Like a 5 year old playing with another 5yo'd privates is way different than a 30 yo messing around with a 5yo.

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

Let me take a real look at this.
What does he mean by child--- anyone under 18.. under 30? What age?
I am pro-death penalty for violent crimes like murder, rape, and child abuse. Depending on the crime and his definition of rebellious I could be pro-death penalty for a "child".
IE a serial killer at 18.. 17.. 16.. I would say yes. 15 under would be harder.. the younger you go the more blurry the lines for accountability get.. Like a 5 year old playing with another 5yo'd privates is way different than a 30 yo messing around with a 5yo.

Wait, are you trying to say that the Bible isn't specific enough for us to know exactly what was meant?

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One of the first obstacles one would have is deciding which version or interpretation would be used. Then there are some who interpret it one way and others who interpret it another. Some people follow all of the Bible and some portions. I am not saying anything negative but if laws were to be written then these things would have to be decided somehow. Most likely the answer would be what it has always been in history - who ever is most in power decides what the bible should say and how it should be carried forth. Then, when that person's term is finished, the next in power would decide the same according to his thinking.

I do not think anyone's religion supports the death penalty for rebellious behavior. I do see lots of people who apparently are insane and commit heinous acts - all of the place. We can sit here and make a list of crimes all over.

This man whoever he is, is a nutjob who somehow got stuck in another era and needs to wake up and realize we are a place of freedom, or at least trying to progress that way. We are a nation which has a large number of Christians but we are NOT a Christian nation.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

I think the media worked really hard to come up with some lunatic Christian who holds these views, when this is a view that is normally held by Muslims. There is a heartbreaking story that happened here in the Dallas area just a couple years ago that a father killed his two teenagle daughters, and he has never been caught. I can't help but believe that he is being hidden by an Islamic community that agrees with what he did.

Texas 'honor killing' suspect Yaser Said could be hiding in plain sight as NYC cabbie, private investigator says | Fox News

Ummmm..what? Blame the messenger?

I won't even touch the Muslim comment. There are plenty of Muslims who do not feel that this is appropriate.

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"KimPossible" wrote:

Wait, are you trying to say that the Bible isn't specific enough for us to know exactly what was meant?

I'll admit....a little disappointed that i got no response

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"myyams" wrote:

I do not think anyone's religion supports the death penalty for rebellious behavior. I do see lots of people who apparently are insane and commit heinous acts - all of the place. We can sit here and make a list of crimes all over.

This man whoever he is, is a nutjob who somehow got stuck in another era and needs to wake up and realize we are a place of freedom, or at least trying to progress that way. We are a nation which has a large number of Christians but we are NOT a Christian nation.

That actually wouldn't be a Christian point of view ... but a Jewish one. Christians don't believe we have to follow the laws in the old testament. But if we use the term the same way as Obama does about Muslim countries... we are a MAJORITY Christian nation.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

That actually wouldn't be a Christian point of view ... but a Jewish one. Christians don't believe we have to follow the laws in the old testament. But if we use the term the same way as Obama does about Muslim countries... we are a MAJORITY Christian nation.

So you probably wouldn't like it if the government started enforcing the OT, huh? Smile

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

That actually wouldn't be a Christian point of view ... but a Jewish one. Christians don't believe we have to follow the laws in the old testament. But if we use the term the same way as Obama does about Muslim countries... we are a MAJORITY Christian nation.

well, this isn't true at all Gloria. There are PLENTY of Christians who do follow the Old Testament. But it doesn't matter if we are a majority Christian nation - we don't make laws here according to religion for the masses to follow. We have laws which do fall in line with many, many religious values of ALL sorts of religions and even secular beliefs. Said person probably needs to reconsider his own feelings towards this country because they are not in line with the values we have.

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"Alissa_Sal" wrote:

So you probably wouldn't like it if the government started enforcing the OT, huh? Smile

I don't really think that would work out. Muslim countries are still enforcing those kinds of laws just like the Taliban is trying to do in Afghanistan. That is why they are stoning gay people and trying to kill teenage girls that want to go to school. The laws enforced out of the New Testament are not only good for Christians they are good for society.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

I don't really think that would work out. Muslim countries are still enforcing those kinds of laws just like the Taliban is trying to do in Afghanistan. That is why they are stoning gay people and trying to kill teenage girls that want to go to school. The laws enforced out of the New Testament are not only good for Christians they are good for society.

Can you give some examples of some laws from the NT that a) are specific to Christianity (in other words, if the NT says "Don't murder" that doesn't count because most human societies have laws against murder, theft, et cetera, regardless of their religion and b) are provably "good for society?" The only one I can think of off the top of my head is (sort of) the gay marriage thing, and I think it's very debatable whether banning gay marriage is provably good for society. But maybe there are some others that I just don't know.

ETA: Oh yeah, and they have to be laws that you would want the government to enforce! So like, if Jesus encourages charity, I agree, that's great for society...but as a conservative I assume you don't want the government making you give your money to the poor....

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

I don't really think that would work out. Muslim countries are still enforcing those kinds of laws just like the Taliban is trying to do in Afghanistan. That is why they are stoning gay people and trying to kill teenage girls that want to go to school. The laws enforced out of the New Testament are not only good for Christians they are good for society.

Out of curiosity, why does it matter what the Muslims are or are not doing in other countries? I seriously can not fathom basing any opinion on how other people are not doing things right. If you have to defend a position of support for laws being made based on Christianity in the ""U.S." then the posts should be about Christianity and how to you that would work out. And once again your statements about what laws are based on compared with actions are also incorrect. There is not one Muslim country which bases its laws solely on religion. There are however laws which sometimes are in line with religion and like here too some which are not in one with religion. Whatever the taliban did is surely not in line with any real law or any one's religious beliefs. I am very unsure why you are fixated on Muslims though. We are in the U.S. and we have our own values and norms.

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"myyams" wrote:

There is not one Muslim country which bases its laws solely on religion. There are however laws which sometimes are in line with religion and like here too some which are not in one with religion. Whatever the taliban did is surely not in line with any real law or any one's religious beliefs. I am very unsure why you are fixated on Muslims though.

Seriously? You need to look up Sharia law.

Sharia, or Islamic law, influences the legal code in most Muslim countries. A movement to allow sharia to govern personal status law, a set of regulations that pertain to marriage, divorce, inheritance, and custody, is even expanding into the West. "There are so many varying interpretations of what sharia actually means that in some places it can be incorporated into political systems relatively easily," says Steven A. Cook, CFR senior fellow for Middle Eastern studies. Sharia's influence on both personal status law and criminal law is highly controversial, though. Some interpretations are used to justify cruel punishments such as amputation and stoning as well as unequal treatment of women in inheritance, dress, and independence. The debate is growing as to whether sharia can coexist with secularism, democracy, or even modernity.

Islam: Governing Under Sharia - Council on Foreign Relations

Countries using strict forms of Sharia Law include:

Death for Blasphemy:

1. Afghanistan
2. Bahrain
3. Iran
4. Mauritania
5. Oman
6. Pakistan
7. Yemen
8. Saudi Arabia
9. Gaza

Imprisonment for Blasphemy:

1. Algeria
2. Bangladesh
3. Egypt
4. Iraq
5. Kuwait
6. Libya
7. Malaysia
8. Maldives
9. Morocco
10. Somalia
11. Tunisia
12. United Arab Emirates

Nations that include some level of Sharia (leniant sentences for honour killings, ban on new churches, floggings, etc):

1. Indonesia (Flogging, Caning; Sharia applied strictly in Aceh province)
2. Turkey (Restrictions on alcohol)
3. Brunei (Caning, Alcohol is illegal)
4. Jordan (2 years or less for honour killings)
5. Eritrea (Girls as young as 8 can be married, spousal rape is not recognized)
6. Syria (1 year or less for honour killings)
7. Djibouti (Sharia law regarding divorce)
8. Chechnya (Modest dress enforced, Alcohol and gambling suppressed by local authorities)
9. Niger (girls can be married off before they reach puberty)
10. Nigeria (Sharia is enforced in the northern states)
11. Kenya (Ad Hoc Sharia enforced in the east near the border with Somalia)
12. Gambia (Sharia courts decide all family matters, including for non-Muslims)
13. Qatar (public consumption is illegal during Ramadan, Alcohol heavily restricted, blood money acceptable punishment for murder, "kafala" law which is also shared by all Gulf states but Bahrain is technically slavery)
14. Uganda (Kadhi Courts overseeing family and civil matters)

What countries use Sharia Law

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Gloria, these countries derive SOME laws from sharia and some from their own minds, very similar to what we do in the u.s. we do have laws which were religiously inspired. We are working hard at fixing the religious slants which are unfair, oppressive, and against our fundamental rights. Again there is not a single country who decides its laws solely on sharia law. Taliban are not even a breed of people and their actions are derived from no religion. and if one were to google the freakish laws based on christianity i am sure there woulds be some jaws dropping. However, because we are the u.s. these laws are being weeded out and done with because we are not those people who wrote them

And by the way, For example, to prove my point: if in the counties ansd laws mentioned there was a country you claim to use only sharia law, then it would stare zero alcohol permitted instead of outling the time when it is impermissible. There is nothing to support your statement here.

"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Seriously? You need to look up Sharia law.

Islam: Governing Under Sharia - Council on Foreign Relations

What countries use Sharia Law

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"myyams" wrote:

Gloria, these countries derive SOME laws from sharia and some from their own minds, very similar to what we do in the u.s. we do have laws which were religiously inspired. We are working hard at fixing the religious slants which are unfair, oppressive, and against our fundamental rights. Again there is not a single country who decides its laws solely on sharia law. Taliban are not even a breed of people and their actions are derived from no religion. and if one were to google the freakish laws based on christianity i am sure there woulds be some jaws dropping. However, because we are the u.s. these laws are being weeded out and done with because we are not those people who wrote them

I'm sorry but you are mistaken. There may be some interpretation involved but Sharia IS their law.

In those Muslim countries where Islam is the official religion listed in the constitution, sharia is declared to be a source, or the source, of the laws. Examples include Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen, and the United Arab Emirates, where the governments derive their legitimacy from Islam. In Pakistan, Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, among others, it is also forbidden to enact legislation that is antithetical to Islam. Saudi Arabia employs one of the strictest interpretations of sharia. Women are not allowed to drive, are under the guardianship of male relatives at all times, and must be completely covered in public. Elsewhere, governments are much more lenient, as in the United Arab Emirates, where alcohol is tolerated. Non-Muslims are not expected to obey sharia and in most countries, they are the jurisdiction of special committees and adjunct courts under the control of the government.

Islam: Governing Under Sharia - Council on Foreign Relations

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Let me put in an easier way. There is no refuting across the globe that it is a requirement in Islam for women to cover their hair. It is not the law in Saudi Arabia for women to cover their hair; only an abaya is required and it does not even have to be black. Some people cover and some do not. People's actions or lack of actns does not change the law. People's adhereance to this shari' ruling does not change ethe fact of its requirement in islam,; but, saudi arabia, one of the strictest countries in the world does not require covering all the time. People are mixed up in public and no one jnows who is who.

Do you really need a clearer example? So many christians are doing sins against christianity but it does not mean that is what christianity says to do. Every single group of people i know fall into this because we are all human. But actons of people does not rewrite religion.

"GloriaInTX" wrote:

I'm sorry but you are mistaken. There may be some interpretation involved but Sharia IS their law.

Islam: Governing Under Sharia - Council on Foreign Relations

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And gloria, the point to you is that this debate is ot about Islam. I can not understand why you try to make it so?

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"myyams" wrote:

Let me put in an easier way. There is no refuting across the globe that it is a requirement in Islam for women to cover their hair. It is not the law in Saudi Arabia for women to cover their hair; only an abaya is required and it does not even have to be black. Some people cover and some do not. People's actions or lack of actns does not change the law. People's adhereance to this shari' ruling does not change ethe fact of its requirement in islam,; but, saudi arabia, one of the strictest countries in the world does not require covering all the time. People are mixed up in public and no one jnows who is who.

Do you really need a clearer example? So many christians are doing sins against christianity but it does not mean that is what christianity says to do. Every single group of people i know fall into this because we are all human. But actons of people does not rewrite religion.

Just because they have chosen not to enforce it doesn't mean that is not the law. At any time they could decide to enforce that differently. Their whole system is based on Sharia, so if they got in a judge that decided to interpret that more strictly they could start punishing women for not covering correctly.

Legal system of Saudi Arabia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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"myyams" wrote:

And gloria, the point to you is that this debate is ot about Islam. I can not understand why you try to make it so?

LOL you are making it so just as much as I am. I am simply posting in response to your statements.

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Saudi women cover as a matter of national pride. All women are not required to cover. Some of their laws are inspired by religion and some not. I refuse to argue this further because your intense obsession with things other than Christianity can not be satisfied. However, the facts which we all have been presenting about Christianity have not even been addressed by you for some reason, but yet millions of Ilsamic queries are.

We live in the u.s and the very last thing i can imagine happening is for a christian extremist to make laws for everyone here. You cant even get a handful of christians together and everyone agree on interpretation, book, branch, or any other principle. It is a terrible idea to try to rule a country like ours on religion. Besides lol according to you it is just the nt that is important and yet there are like no laws in there except like turn the other cheek or let the one who is innocent cast the first stone. Tese are true recipes for civil war. So what would be the penalty system, forgiveness? In our soceity?

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"Alissa_Sal" wrote:

Can you give some examples of some laws from the NT that a) are specific to Christianity (in other words, if the NT says "Don't murder" that doesn't count because most human societies have laws against murder, theft, et cetera, regardless of their religion and b) are provably "good for society?" The only one I can think of off the top of my head is (sort of) the gay marriage thing, and I think it's very debatable whether banning gay marriage is provably good for society. But maybe there are some others that I just don't know.

That is like saying which came first the chicken or the egg. Most of western society developed out of Christian practices. So how can you really separate the two? Many human societies also have laws that allow honor killings, killing babies born out of wedlock, selling women and other things that I can definitely say aren't good for society. I'm not sure how Christianity didn't have a part in the fact that those things aren't acceptable in our society but are acceptable in areas where Christianity is not predominant.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

That is like saying which came first the chicken or the egg. Most of western society developed out of Christian practices. So how can you really separate the two? Many human societies also have laws that allow honor killings, killing babies born out of wedlock, selling women and other things that I can definitely say aren't good for society. I'm not sure how Christianity didn't have a part in the fact that those things aren't acceptable in our society but are acceptable in areas where Christianity is not predominant.

Can you offer up any law in the nt?

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"myyams" wrote:

Can you offer up any law in the nt?

I don't think there is anything written in the NT that is not already good for society. Jesus didn't give a set of laws in the NT. If anything Christianity is more strict than any set of laws, but there is no way that you could put laws in place that judge thoughts, only God can do that. He is not speaking of judgement here on earth.

Matthew 5
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister

will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’[f] 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

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But there has to be some punishment in earth for crimes. If someone is going to call somthing a crime, there has to also be a punishment besides just for the day of jugement, where according to christianity all will just be forgiven. That just doesnt seem like something very .... motivating, esp given that so many people are not Christians with the same beliefs. They will just kill someone, the christian will say it is illegal, and the killer will say whoopdeedo. Everything will fall apart. Clearly we won't make it a day.

ETA and the whacko fuqua wants death to kids for disobeying their parents. Clearly his version isnt in synch with yours. And i would say killing kids is pretty much against what i believe as an American so i will have no part of that.

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Joined: 07/29/08
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"myyams" wrote:

But there has to be some punishment in earth for crimes. If someone is going to call somthing a crime, there has to also be a punishment besides just for the day of jugement, where according to christianity all will just be forgiven. That just doesnt seem like something very .... motivating, esp given that so many people are not Christians with the same beliefs. They will just kill someone, the christian will say it is illegal, and the killer will say whoopdeedo. Everything will fall apart. Clearly we won't make it a day.

ETA and the whacko fuqua wants death to kids for disobeying their parents. Clearly his version isnt in synch with yours. And i would say killing kids is pretty much against what i believe as an American so i will have no part of that.

Absolutely. I didn't say there wasn't. Alissa asked for an example of a specific law in the NT besides murder, theft, etc. If you murder someone you still have to pay the consequence for that on earth as well as face judgement by God. The laws in our country were affected by Christianity I don't see how anyone can dispute that. I was just pointing out that whatever this whacko believes it is not a Christian belief.

Joined: 05/23/12
Posts: 680

"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Absolutely. I didn't say there wasn't. Alissa asked for an example of a specific law in the NT besides murder, theft, etc. If you murder someone you still have to pay the consequence for that on earth as well as face judgement by God. The laws in our country were affected by Christianity I don't see how anyone can dispute that. I was just pointing out that whatever this whacko believes it is not a Christian belief.

Yes the laws are inspired in part, not wholly, by the religion of our founding fathers. Bt I say that knowing we used to have some pretty messed up and bizarre laws, probably still do that no one really enforces anymore.

But now is a greater time of diversity so our laws must be more encompassing and inclusive. We must look beyond religion and look at the spirit of the message of our founding fathers, not the religion. That was how they were and how they believed to their extent. But not really applicable to us today. On this basis, no religon or its laws can ever be involved or considered when making a law except the obvious freedom of religion (all religions or the lack therof). We do have laws which are universal, like not killing, stealing, harming, etc. I believe we can find good truths from all religions, not that i believe they are all right, but if we read different holy books or non religious books we can find good inspiration and strive to be better people, at least a tiny bit :).

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Posts: 4111

"myyams" wrote:

Yes the laws are inspired in part, not wholly, by the religion of our founding fathers. Bt I say that knowing we used to have some pretty messed up and bizarre laws, probably still do that no one really enforces anymore.

But now is a greater time of diversity so our laws must be more encompassing and inclusive. We must look beyond religion and look at the spirit of the message of our founding fathers, not the religion. That was how they were and how they believed to their extent. But not really applicable to us today. On this basis, no religon or its laws can ever be involved or considered when making a law except the obvious freedom of religion (all religions or the lack therof). We do have laws which are universal, like not killing, stealing, harming, etc. I believe we can find good truths from all religions, not that i believe they are all right, but if we read different holy books or non religious books we can find good inspiration and strive to be better people, at least a tiny bit :).

There is always going to be a law that doesn't match with some religion. The Muslim man that killed his daughters in Fort Worth thinks he did nothing wrong because honor killing is allowed by his religion. So there will never be a perfect society, we can only do what the majority thinks is the right thing. The majority of this country right now is Christian, so most of the laws are going to reflect Christian values. That is just the way it is.

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Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6560

"myyams" wrote:

But now is a greater time of diversity so our laws must be more encompassing and inclusive. We must look beyond religion and look at the spirit of the message of our founding fathers, not the religion. That was how they were and how they believed to their extent. But not really applicable to us today. On this basis, no religon or its laws can ever be involved or considered when making a law except the obvious freedom of religion (all religions or the lack therof). We do have laws which are universal, like not killing, stealing, harming, etc. I believe we can find good truths from all religions, not that i believe they are all right, but if we read different holy books or non religious books we can find good inspiration and strive to be better people, at least a tiny bit :).

People back when the country was founded were people just like we are people today. Universal principles like not killing others were the same 2,000 years ago as they are today. I do not believe that those principles are or can become out dated. You might be working hard to get the laws and principles to change, but there are others that are working just as hard to protect them.

Joined: 08/17/04
Posts: 2226

"GloriaInTX" wrote:

There is always going to be a law that doesn't match with some religion. The Muslim man that killed his daughters in Fort Worth thinks he did nothing wrong because honor killing is allowed by his religion. So there will never be a perfect society, we can only do what the majority thinks is the right thing. The majority of this country right now is Christian, so most of the laws are going to reflect Christian values. That is just the way it is.

I guess I just look at not killing people and not stealing to be human values and not specific to Christians. Also, I have never encountered anyone that is here in the US that thinks honor killings are okay. That guy was just ridiculous Just like anyone else who murders another.

Joined: 05/23/12
Posts: 680

"GloriaInTX" wrote:

There is always going to be a law that doesn't match with some religion. The Muslim man that killed his daughters in Fort Worth thinks he did nothing wrong because honor killing is allowed by his religion. So there will never be a perfect society, we can only do what the majority thinks is the right thing. The majority of this country right now is Christian, so most of the laws are going to reflect Christian values. That is just the way it is.

How do you know it is allowed in his religion? I am going to ask for proof if you would like to make statements like that.

And the majority which is Christian can not agree on issues on so many levels. This is clearly evidenced by the fact that historically gay marriage would have never passed, allowing non celibate preists was unheard of, i mean the lit is exhausting of how Christians in order to be inclusive and fair are looking behond their own values to include others who do not share theirs. So clearly a Christian run country is not what it is about because in so many levels we could say that laws are passing everyday that traditionaly would be Sinful to endorse.

Joined: 05/23/12
Posts: 680

"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

People back when the country was founded were people just like we are people today. Universal principles like not killing others were the same 2,000 years ago as they are today. I do not believe that those principles are or can become out dated. You might be working hard to get the laws and principles to change, but there are others that are working just as hard to protect them.

We cannot impeded on others' rights in order to satisfy our own. People then left Europe to escape this very philosophy, so i can not believe it was to escape there to impose the same oppressions on others.

You see, the way it is, and this is the hard fact - today Christians might be in majority by formal affiliation, but in some years, that could very well not be the case. How would anyone like it if someone from some other religion who had enough power came in an flip flopped the laws. I am positive there would be so angry people. So the best policy in the midst of such diversity is to leave for fear that you by its endorsement you may be the oppressed. So what is fair is fair. In lots of places being white is a minority now,msomething 100 years ago i am sure no one would have imagined.

Joined: 04/12/03
Posts: 1683

"GloriaInTX" wrote:

There is always going to be a law that doesn't match with some religion. The Muslim man that killed his daughters in Fort Worth thinks he did nothing wrong because honor killing is allowed by his religion. So there will never be a perfect society, we can only do what the majority thinks is the right thing. The majority of this country right now is Christian, so most of the laws are going to reflect Christian values. That is just the way it is.

I disagree. A lot of our laws are based on basic human values which Christians don't have a monopoly on. It isn't the law or the 10 Commandments that keep most people from killing. Ironically, there are many Christians in prison for murder - their the laws nor their religion seemed to deter for them.

Several of the nations with the lowest murder rate are not Christian nations, yet the nations with the highest murder rates happen to have a Christian majority.

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Posts: 6560

"myyams" wrote:

We cannot impeded on others' rights in order to satisfy our own. People then left Europe to escape this very philosophy, so i can not believe it was to escape there to impose the same oppressions on others.

You see, the way it is, and this is the hard fact - today Christians might be in majority by formal affiliation, but in some years, that could very well not be the case. How would anyone like it if someone from some other religion who had enough power came in an flip flopped the laws. I am positive there would be so angry people. So the best policy in the midst of such diversity is to leave for fear that you by its endorsement you may be the oppressed. So what is fair is fair. In lots of places being white is a minority now,msomething 100 years ago i am sure no one would have imagined.

I did not say that our country should be run be religion. Just that the people trying to change existing laws should know that not everyone wants the laws changed. They don't get to be changed just because they bother a few people.

As an aside, (just in case you would find it interesting, not related to the debate at all) in the area that I live in I would very much be a minority. If my girls went to public school they would be the only white child in their class.

Joined: 05/23/12
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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

I did not say that our country should be run be religion. Just that the people trying to change existing laws should know that not everyone wants the laws changed. They don't get to be changed just because they bother a few people.

As an aside, (just in case you would find it interesting, not related to the debate at all) in the area that I live in I would very much be a minority. If my girls went to public school they would be the only white child in their class.

Right, but if laws are oppressing then it doesnt matter how many people dont want the law changed. I mean, gay marriage to many Christians (and some others) is wrong, but it doesnt apparently matter because we are moving in a direction where as a whole, society feels gay marriage should be allowed. We might not be there completely, but who would disagree that rights are slowly opening up compared to preqvious eras?

54 percent are for gay marriage and 44 percent against. I would say this is pretty landmark, no? Id say yes based on the fact that we have so many christians here.

Public opinion of same-sex marriage in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Joined: 05/23/12
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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

I did not say that our country should be run be religion. Just that the people trying to change existing laws should know that not everyone wants the laws changed. They don't get to be changed just because they bother a few people.

As an aside, (just in case you would find it interesting, not related to the debate at all) in the area that I live in I would very much be a minority. If my girls went to public school they would be the only white child in their class.

Right, but if laws are oppressing then it doesnt matter how many people dont want the law changed. I mean, gay marriage to many Christians (and some others) is wrong, but it doesnt apparently matter because we are moving in a direction where as a whole, society feels gay marriage should be allowed. We might not be there completely, but who would disagree that rights are slowly opening up compared to preqvious eras?

54 percent are for gay marriage and 44 percent against. I would say this is pretty landmark, no? Id say yes based on the fact that we have so many christians here.

Public opinion of same-sex marriage in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And as an aside, in your other ethnicity Dominated area, what the laws protected everyone except your daughters because of the attitude of why bother with the 1 in so many when we feel x due to being in majority? That seems pretty stinky to me.

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Joined: 06/29/06
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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

That is like saying which came first the chicken or the egg. Most of western society developed out of Christian practices. So how can you really separate the two? Many human societies also have laws that allow honor killings, killing babies born out of wedlock, selling women and other things that I can definitely say aren't good for society. I'm not sure how Christianity didn't have a part in the fact that those things aren't acceptable in our society but are acceptable in areas where Christianity is not predominant.

If you are going to say that, for example, the laws about not killing babies born out of wedlock or honor killings or selling women are specific to Christianity or inspired by Christianity, then it would be helpful if you could show me in the bible, in the NT where it speaks out against those things. I googled "What does the bible say about infanticide" and couldn't find anywhere that Jesus spoke out against it. I did find some stuff in the OT that seems to be for infanticide in certain cases, but we agreed to toss out the OT.

I agree with myyams "Do not murder" is a human value, not a Christian one. Sure, you can find societies where murder are commonplace....come to think of it, it's not all that uncommon in ours....so I don't think that means those societies really embrace murder, unless you want to argue that ours does too.

Couldn't find anything specific to selling women, but I did find some stuff about slavery. Some verses seem to be for it

example: Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, - Ephesians 6:5-6

And some seem to be against it:
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. -Galatians 5:1

So that's a toss up.

After you show where the bible talks about these things, you would need to show that other cultures/religions do not have laws about these same things.

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"Alissa_Sal" wrote:

If you are going to say that, for example, the laws about not killing babies born out of wedlock or honor killings or selling women are specific to Christianity or inspired by Christianity, then it would be helpful if you could show me in the bible, in the NT where it speaks out against those things. I googled "What does the bible say about infanticide" and couldn't find anywhere that Jesus spoke out against it. I did find some stuff in the OT that seems to be for infanticide in certain cases, but we agreed to toss out the OT.

When King Herod killed all the babies looking for Jesus it definitely was portrayed as an evil thing not a good thing.

Matthew 2
16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:

18 ?A voice is heard in Ramah,
weeping and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more.?[d]

I would classify this as an honor killing.

John 8
2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, ?Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?? 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, ?Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.? 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, ?Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you??

11 ?No one, sir,? she said.

?Then neither do I condemn you,? Jesus declared. ?Go now and leave your life of sin.?

"Alissa_Sal" wrote:

Couldn't find anything specific to selling women, but I did find some stuff about slavery. Some verses seem to be for it

example: Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, - Ephesians 6:5-6

And some seem to be against it:
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. -Galatians 5:1

So that's a toss up.

No one chooses to be a slave, that verse only tells them to make the best of their situation if you are a slave. Slave traders are condemned though.

1 Timothy 1
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers?and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me

"Alissa_Sal" wrote:

After you show where the bible talks about these things, you would need to show that other cultures/religions do not have laws about these same things.

There are plenty of Muslim countries that allow honor killings. It is common knowledge so I won't post anything.

I watched a special on TV about how all the babies in Ethiopia are being killed that are born out of wedlock and it is heartbreaking.

To the modern Western mind, the idea of parents deliberately killing their own children ? abandoning them to die of starvation, exposure or predation, or throwing them in rivers ? sounds almost unimaginably cruel and heartless. We tend to forget that infanticide by these methods was commonplace in Europe and America until the late 19th century, and that England was particularly notorious for it. Effective contraception and legal abortion curbed the practice in the West, although it does still occur on a small scale.

Scholars of infanticide have found it so widespread in human history, across all cultures and continents, that they have deemed it normal human behaviour. The killing of newborn girls is still rife in China, India, Bangladesh and other parts of Asia, even as cheap sonograms and abortions are taking over as a way to get rid of unwanted daughters. In Africa, mothers without access to contraception or abortion will sometimes kill babies they don?t want, or can?t afford, but only in a few remote areas on the continent are people systematically killing babies for magical reasons, in the belief that they carry an evil curse.

Saving the condemned children of Ethiopia - Telegraph

Slavery still exists in mutiple places

They do not wear chains, nor are they branded with the mark of their masters, but slaves still exist in Mauritania.

In the Saharan Islamic state, a centuries-old system of bondage is resisting the rise of democracy in the largely desert former French colony.

Herding camels or goats out in the sun-blasted dunes of the Sahara, or serving hot mint tea to guests in the richly carpeted villas of Nouakchott, Mauritanian slaves serve their masters and are passed on as family chattels from generation to generation.

They may number thousands, anti-slavery activists say. A shocking anomaly in the 21st century, this is widely accepted in a racially diverse, hierarchical society dominated by a Moorish elite and a brand of Islam that preaches submission.

"It's like having sheep or goats. If a woman is a slave, her descendants are slaves," said Boubacar Messaoud, who was born a slave and is now his country's leading anti-slavery campaigner.

He says a 1981 decree outlawing slavery is a dead letter and slavery is alive in Mauritania, with all its manifestations of non-paid work, punishment, forced sex and other abuses.

Slavery still exists in Mauritania | Reuters

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I don't really find those bible verses to be convincing to be specifically speaking out against infanticide or honor killings. The "he who is without sin" story has always been presented to me as a parable about judgement and the dangers therein. The Herod thing; of course it was a bad thing - he was trying to kill the Jesus is Jesus's book! LOL The slavery thing seems to be more than just "make the best of a bad situation." I mean, obey your masters as you would Christ? That's like setting up slave masters to literally be the lords over their slaves. I would also say that you can easily come to the conclusion of "no honor killings, no infanticide, and no slavery" with a sense of empathy and compassion for your fellow man. Christianity does not have the corner stone on this. 200 years ago in this "Christian" country, Christian slave owners were happy enough to sell, beat, rape, and kill their slaves as they saw fit and the bible hasn't changed since then, so I don't necessarily believe that Christianity is the only influence that convinced us to treat each other a little better. Even as we speak people are using the bible as justification to deny their fellow citizens equal rights under the law, so I'd say our Christian compassion and sense of social justice is still evolving.

But of course, all of this is open to interpretation. The only point I have been trying to make is that if you don't think we should have laws that are based solely on someone else's holy book, perhaps you could try to keep that perspective in mind when you want to make laws that are based solely on your holy book. Smile It's just possible that I feel the same way about making laws based solely on Christianity as you would feel about someone making laws based soley on the OT, yes? Smile

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Joined: 07/29/08
Posts: 4111

"Alissa_Sal" wrote:

But of course, all of this is open to interpretation. The only point I have been trying to make is that if you don't think we should have laws that are based solely on someone else's holy book, perhaps you could try to keep that perspective in mind when you want to make laws that are based solely on your holy book. Smile It's just possible that I feel the same way about making laws based solely on Christianity as you would feel about someone making laws based soley on the OT, yes? Smile

And my point is that is going to happen no matter what because moral values affect law. The definition of what is right or wrong is almost always shaped by religious views. There are always going to be some religious beliefs that conflicts with current law. Laws are made based on what the majority of the current populace think are good for society. You can bet that if this country had a Muslim majority the laws would be different. That is just a fact. That is why I am very thankful that our country was formed based on Christian values.
Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions - Library of Congress

Joined: 08/17/04
Posts: 2226

I do not think that if there were a non Christian majority forming the US or currently that our laws would be different. I was raised as a Catholic and I disagree with many of their "moral" values because I don't feel that it meets my moral values. So my religious beliefs do not always influence my moral/ethical decisions because I think through my own feelings on a subject. I have many personal feelings towards things that I would not think should be law either.

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Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6560

"Jessica80" wrote:

I do not think that if there were a non Christian majority forming the US or currently that our laws would be different.

I disagree. People vote based on their values. If abortion is important to you, you will vote for people who support that and make laws in support of it. If gay rights are important to you, then you will vote for people who support that legislation. At the same time if a traditional family is important to you, most likely you will vote for people who will support that. In the same way if Shari Law was important to the vast majority of Americans, our laws would be Very different because those people would vote for people who would support their cause. Those people who were then elected would appoint people to the court who supported their cause and thus change the laws. I am very thankful that right now this is not the case in the US.

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