DOMA and Prop 8 - Page 12
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Thread: DOMA and Prop 8

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    Yes, but people who say they want the government out of marriage presumably want it out of marriage altogether, right? So the direct equivalent would be government out of welfare altogether too, right?
    The point is that you can disagree with something the government does and still participate in it. You said that anyone that would do that is lying about the fact that they disagree with it. It is very possible to disagree with something but still participate for whatever reason. Just because you participate in something, that does not mean you agree with it 100%. During the Bush area were you in support of all the Government did? Did you go right out and resind your citizenship? If you had been working toward citizenship for many years and there were some policies you did not agree with. Would you be lying about the fact that there were some things you disagreed with if you then became a citizen?

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  2. #112
    Posting Addict Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    The point is that you can disagree with something the government does and still participate in it. You said that anyone that would do that is lying about the fact that they disagree with it. It is very possible to disagree with something but still participate for whatever reason. Just because you participate in something, that does not mean you agree with it 100%. During the Bush area were you in support of all the Government did? Did you go right out and resind your citizenship? If you had been working toward citizenship for many years and there were some policies you did not agree with. Would you be lying about the fact that there were some things you disagreed with if you then became a citizen?
    I think there is a big difference between not rescinding my citizenship because I don't agree with everything the government does (even now, believe it or not!) and actively campaigning against something that I personally and voluntarily take part in. It would be like a teacher who is a vocal opponent of teacher led prayer in school....who also voluntarily leads a prayer in school every morning. You can't claim to be against something that you yourself do, on purpose, directly, and voluntarily. That is too big of a disconnect. I guess maybe "lying" is the wrong word, but I sure as heck won't take you seriously if you do that.
    Last edited by Alissa_Sal; 07-03-2013 at 05:26 PM.
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  3. #113
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    What's being missed here? Disagreement with government policies isn't a problem. Saying that you accept WIC but feel like it shouldn't be something people receive is disgusting. Saying you don't want the government in marriage but actively inviting the government into yours is sad. You did it because it benefits you and instead of extending it to all adults who want to get married you would rather no one gets benefits out of it. How Christian of you all. Rather than everyone who wants to participate in the activity gets to join for some fun benefits lets just strip it all away.
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  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    I think there is a big difference between not rescinding my citizenship because I don't agree with everything the government does (even now, believe it or not!) and actively campaigning against something that I personally and voluntarily take part in. It would be like a teacher who is a vocal opponent of teacher led prayer in school....who also voluntarily leads a prayer in school every morning.
    But it is not that different to say that I do not rescind my marriage because I do not agree with all aspects of marriage, than to say I do not rescind my Citizenship just because I do not agree with every aspect of our government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    But it is not that different to say that I do not rescind my marriage because I do not agree with all aspects of marriage, than to say I do not rescind my Citizenship just because I do not agree with every aspect of our government.
    You were granted your citizenship when you were born. A legal marriage has to be pursued by willing participants. To say that the government shouldn't be involved in marriage and have a government-sanctioned marriage is hypocritical at its MILDEST.
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  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    But it is not that different to say that I do not rescind my marriage because I do not agree with all aspects of marriage, than to say I do not rescind my Citizenship just because I do not agree with every aspect of our government.
    I'm sorry, I'm not following your argument. The only part of marriage that you're against is the part where government gets involved, right? So you could get rid of that part, if you wanted, without completely getting rid of your marriage. You could get a divorce, and that would get the government out of your marriage, but still be married in your own eyes and the eyes of your church. I can't just rescind the parts of my citizenship that have to do with the policies I disagree with. How would that work?
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  7. #117
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    Ugg, my internet just went down in the middle of a long post and I lost it all.

    My point is that someone that says they are against the Government being in marriage but is still married they are not a liar. I would be willing to bet that every member of this board participates in some activities that they do not agree with 100%. You might buy gas even though you do not agree with the US policies that got that gas. You might buy clothing made in China even though you do not agree with how they treat their workers. That does not mean you are lying when you say you disagree with those practices.

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  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    Gloria - if you are arguing that the government shouldn't be offering this tax deduction for everyone else, but you're willing to take it for yourself.....you see the problem there don't you?
    No sure don't. I don't agree with the government offering this tax deduction. Seriously I think it is unfair for the government to give mortgage deductions too, seems kind of unfair to people who are renting. There are many things about the tax code structure that I think are unfair, the whole thing needs to be re-written. But as long as that is what the tax code says I am definitely going to take advantage of it and take those deductions.
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  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    My point is that someone that says they are against the Government being in marriage but is still married they are not a liar. I would be willing to bet that every member of this board participates in some activities that they do not agree with 100%. You might buy gas even though you do not agree with the US policies that got that gas. You might buy clothing made in China even though you do not agree with how they treat their workers. That does not mean you are lying when you say you disagree with those practices.
    No, it just means you're a hypocrite. I do not buy things made in China. That means I don't always get the cheapest version, but at least I have a good conscience about where my money is going. I have not bought gas from BP for years, and when I needed a new car, I got a hybrid to help reduce my overall gas consumption. And I choose to live in a place with excellent public transit so I don't need to drive as much as if I lived in the suburbs.

    And if I disliked what the government was doing with marriage, I would have chosen not to do it. As it turned out, I chose to get married precisely because I wanted the protections that legal marriage offer; none of the other paperwork-based things would really protect us the way being legally married could. If you are personally taking advantage of the protections and the economic benefits of marriage, which you are in many, many ways, then you have no right to argue that the government should be out of marriage. Not at all. That's hypocritical and unethical.
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  10. #120
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    Speaking in Bonita's defense (sort of), I would understand if someone said they got married at a time in their lives when they hadnt considered the ramifications of having the govt in or out of marriage, they were told to file, so they did.

    I can also see not getting divorced at that point because getting divorced has emotional connotations for many people, that just not filing would not have.
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