DOMA and Prop 8 - Page 25
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Thread: DOMA and Prop 8

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    I do not feel it is necessary to bring Gloria' s marriage into a debate that she has not been participating in.
    Awkward turtle here..... But read the debate. Gloria has well been participating. And bringing up her point that gay marriage "threatens" traditional marriage is as on point as debating that divorce "threatens" straight marriage. The irony if course being that Laurie's father has successfully maintained a gay marriage for longer than Gloria (or any of us, yet) have. Kudos to him!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potter75 View Post
    Awkward turtle here..... But read the debate. Gloria has well been participating. And bringing up her point that gay marriage "threatens" traditional marriage is as on point as debating that divorce "threatens" straight marriage. The irony if course being that Laurie's father has successfully maintained a gay marriage for longer than Gloria (or any of us, yet) have. Kudos to him!
    I have to add that he tried being straight, desperately. He married a woman. He had four kids. You can't say he didn't try. But he found true happiness and his true self when he accepted his homosexuality. It wasn't easy. It was the early 1970s. But he changed his life and he is happy and fulfilled and is now living true, and became a father again when they adopted my brother and sister, who are now 20 and 22.

    Bonita....can you at least say what the negatives are to government marriage? What is the negative? What would need to be changed? Any info at all would help.
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  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddieflounder101 View Post

    Bonita....can you at least say what the negatives are to government marriage? What is the negative? What would need to be changed? Any info at all would help.
    Because an enormous amount of time and money go into creating laws about marriage and divorce. It just is something that in my opinion is not the Government's business. The Government should not care who I am sleeping with or be a part of tax breaks sponsoring marriage when the US debt is $16,737,246,099,998 (The first response on Google). I just do not feel it is the Governments business and I feel that ideally they would stay out of it. I am not sure why that is so hard fathom.

    Just because I think it would be ideal, does not mean it is realist or would ever happen.

    ~Bonita~

  4. #244
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    Right- and no paperwork or expense or governmental involvement would be necessary for this new "next of kin" office..........when next of kin really works very seamlessly already.

    who should handle legal couplings such as marriage if NOT the government? The SPCA? I mean- what are you talking about?

    you yourself pointed out that as an unmarried mother of three you would GAIN benefits- now you are blaming the national debt on marriage? Truly Bonita- you are in way too deep on this one.
    Last edited by Potter75; 07-07-2013 at 08:59 PM.
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  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    Because an enormous amount of time and money go into creating laws about marriage and divorce. It just is something that in my opinion is not the Government's business. The Government should not care who I am sleeping with or be a part of tax breaks sponsoring marriage when the US debt is $16,737,246,099,998 (The first response on Google). I just do not feel it is the Governments business and I feel that ideally they would stay out of it. I am not sure why that is so hard fathom.

    Just because I think it would be ideal, does not mean it is realist or would ever happen.
    I'm just curious...if the gov't didn't get involved in family matters, how would we resolve child custody, child support, restraining orders, division of property, etc.? Not having marriage would complicate things so much more.

    As for tax breaks for married couples...yeah, that's what is driving up the national debt. When it comes to taxes, I would lose if I get married (again).
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  6. #246
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    I still keep getting lost. Is the idea that there wouldn't be marriage anymore? Or would all the handling of marriage and divorce go to some other entity?
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  7. #247
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    TO those who claim that you should be able to just fill out some paperwork in place of legal marriage, have you ever tried that? It doesn't really work IRL. I have two examples. First was a friend of mine (I'll call him Joe) whose long-time partner (I'll call Sam) was an aspiring artist. Sam was estranged from his parents because they couldn't accept him being gay. Sam wanted his home and all of his artwork to go to Joe, and they had all the appropriate legal paperwork in place long before Sam died of AIDS. The day after Sam died, his parents came to the home Sam & Joe shared, moved out all of Joe's belongings and changed the locks, and began selling all of Sam's possessions, including his artwork. Joe called the cops and was told to file a police report, which he did, but no one would do anything to stop Sam's parents while it was happening. Joe had to take Sam's parents to court, and even though he got a court order saying Sam's parents couldn't sell anything before the case was settled, they did sell it all anyway. Joe eventually proved his case in court, but he was unable to get most of the artwork back, and the lawsuit cost him a fortune. So much for legal paperwork....

    And before DH & I were married, we lived together for 10 years and we had all the appropriate paperwork for a young couple without children or shared property. Among other things, I was his "next of kin" on his health insurance and I had a medical power of attorney. One day he started having horrible chest pains and I took him to the ER. He was rushed in back, I was shown to the waiting room. I waited for HOURS without hearing anything. I asked, but was told I couldn't be told anything because "I wasn't family." At one point, a nurse came out to ask if I knew DH's mom's phone number because they had some questions about his recent health history. His mom didn't have answers to their questions and told them to talk to me! But they wouldn't. I kept saying, why can't I go back & see him, they kept saying, "You're not family." I said, "I'm his next of kin, I have power of attorney," and they said, "Those things are only gppd when he dies." Finally he came around enough to demand that I be allowed to see him. He had an infection in the sac around his heart, he could have died that day, and he was at risk of a heart attack for weeks until the infection cleared up, but to the hospital I didn't exist because we didn't have the right piece of paper.

    Bonita said, on a day to day basis she doesn't think about marriage at all. That's because she doesn't have to. She doesn't have to worry about whether or not she will inherit her husband's property, or his share of their joint property, if he were to die tomorrow and a will can't be found. She doesn't have to worry about paying estate taxes when he dies. She doesn't have to worry about whether her husband can add her to his insurance policies. Their family has additional money every month from him being able to deduct her & their girls as dependents on his taxes. She doesn't have to be alone in a hospital room because he's not considered family enough. He can take time off work to care for her if she gets sick without the risk of losing his job. She knows that if she's incapacitated, her husband will communicate her wishes for her, and hospital staff will listen. She won't have to fight with anyone over what to do with his body, where to bury him, whether to have an autopsy, etc. because all those decisions will be hers alone. She will never be forced to testify against him. She doesn't have to worry about her husband kicking her out of their home because she has legal rights to it even if he's paying the mortgage. And if he leaves her for a cuter, younger plaything, she knows she is entitled to a reasonable divorce settlement and support until she can get on her own feet. Those are things that people who aren't married *do* worry about because most of those can't be resolved with legal paperwork outside of marriage.
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  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potter75 View Post
    Awkward turtle here..... But read the debate. Gloria has well been participating. And bringing up her point that gay marriage "threatens" traditional marriage is as on point as debating that divorce "threatens" straight marriage. The irony if course being that Laurie's father has successfully maintained a gay marriage for longer than Gloria (or any of us, yet) have. Kudos to him!
    I was actually married 16 years before my husband chose to divorce me. I had no choice in the matter so I'm not sure how it is relevant. My parents were married for 59 years when my Dad died.
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  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    I was actually married 16 years before my husband chose to divorce me. I had no choice in the matter so I'm not sure how it is relevant. My parents were married for 59 years when my Dad died.

    I'm sure that could be a whole nother debate ~ But it would be way too personal! My point was that I could easily argue that divorce (Larry King anyone? Brit Brit? Kim Kardashian?) is WAY more of a real and legitimate threat to all of our marriages than gay marriage is......but you don't see Gay people who ARE legally married out campaigning to ban divorce. You don't see Christians lobbying to ban divorce, or living together before one is married. Just the gays ~ only trying to keep legal rights from the gays. It is so overt that it is just hard to pretend that its accidental, or that it is about wanting the government out of marriage (which you all enjoy) or anything short of pure homophobia.
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  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potter75 View Post
    I'm sure that could be a whole nother debate ~ But it would be way too personal! My point was that I could easily argue that divorce (Larry King anyone? Brit Brit? Kim Kardashian?) is WAY more of a real and legitimate threat to all of our marriages than gay marriage is......but you don't see Gay people who ARE legally married out campaigning to ban divorce. You don't see Christians lobbying to ban divorce, or living together before one is married. Just the gays ~ only trying to keep legal rights from the gays. It is so overt that it is just hard to pretend that its accidental, or that it is about wanting the government out of marriage (which you all enjoy) or anything short of pure homophobia.
    The response is in kind. I don't see a bunch of people out lobbying for divorce either do you? Christians are only lobbying against gay marriage in response to those who are lobbying for it. If there was a chance that we could turn back time and make divorce more difficult I would be the first one speaking out about it. After all I may not have been divorced if it was more difficult to get one. It is a lot harder to change something back that has already happened, and the laws making divorce simpler happened many years ago. So it is not really apples and apples.
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