Evolution - Spin Off from the School Vouchers Thread - Page 2
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Thread: Evolution - Spin Off from the School Vouchers Thread

  1. #11
    Posting Addict ClairesMommy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    I think it's a misunderstanding to think that evolution is random. True, mutations are random, but whether a mutation makes the animal more likely to survive depends on the environment that the animal lives in. We are shaped by our environments, that is not at all random. For example, if giraffes didn't live in areas where the leaves they eat are up high, they most likely wouldn't have evolved long necks randomly. Sure, some of them would have randomly gotten the long neck mutation, but it wouldn't have been beneficial, and those animals wouldn't have survived longer to reproduce more and pass on their genes more often, so it probably wouldn't have "taken" especially since I imagine those long necks are costly (takes more resources to "fuel", limits where they can live, et cetera.) So it's not random, like splashing paint on canvas, that giraffes evolved to have long necks. The only random part is the mutation itself.
    Yes. And, there is now some evidence that unrelated species developed the similar mutations to adapt to their environments - being that although the species were biologically unrelated and often those populations were found in vastly different parts of the world, their similiar environments in terms of climate, geology, food supply, etc. led them to develop the same genetic mutations at about the same time in history to adapt to those environments. Very, very interesting. So, it seems that some mutations aren't all that random, as traditionally held. Now I have to go and find that research. I love these debates.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    Apologize for the Wiki, too tired to research more extensively tonight.

    Giraffe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Sorry, I am just way to tired to read this with any intelligence. I will have to look at it better tomorrow.

    ~Bonita~

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    Community Host Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    Evolution doesn't talk about the first something, but there is a metric ton of evidence regarding humans evolving from a common ancestor as apes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    It is not fact. If it was proven, hundreds of thousands of people would not believe something very different. Where do you think that very first something came from that everything evolved from? The very first something had to come from somewhere or something. It has not, can can not be proven that everything evolved from nothing. Or that people evolved from apes or other animals. Therefore, it should not be taught that is and only this is the only possible explanation for how things came into being.
    As I said, based on the definitions in the article I would go with fact because evolution has been proven and backed with evidence. I also stated it was weird for me to say fact because I was always taught it's never fact only theory but theory also means something different in science.

    Of course the very first something had to come from somewhere, I have no idea what though. Through my faith, I feel that God has put it all here and allowed it to evolve however in a scientific thought I know that cannot be proven, at least right now, and I'm comfortable enough with my faith to allow that.

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    I will have to do more geeky research tomorrow, but I did want to throw one last idea out there. Yes, Apes and humans have common traits, but why wouldn't they if they were created by the same being? Going back to the Thomas Kinkade painting, you can look at it and know it was painted by him. Why? Because he has a style that is all through out his work. I can look at my daughters drawings and know who drew it. They each have a unique way of doing things and I can tell who did it just by looking at it. I paint, and go to painting classes. When I am drawing or painting at home, I am going to do things a certain way. It is very reasonable that the reason that Apes and Humans have similar attributes is because they were made by the same Creator. Is it fact? No, of course not. But neither is it fact that humans evolved from Apes.

    ~Bonita~

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    Posting Addict KimPossible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    I will have to do more geeky research tomorrow, but I did want to throw one last idea out there. Yes, Apes and humans have common traits, but why wouldn't they if they were created by the same being? Going back to the Thomas Kinkade painting, you can look at it and know it was painted by him. Why? Because he has a style that is all through out his work. I can look at my daughters drawings and know who drew it. They each have a unique way of doing things and I can tell who did it just by looking at it. I paint, and go to painting classes. When I am drawing or painting at home, I am going to do things a certain way. It is very reasonable that the reason that Apes and Humans have similar attributes is because they were made by the same Creator. Is it fact? No, of course not. But neither is it fact that humans evolved from Apes.
    But in your beliefs weren't sea urchins a albetrosses also made by the same creator? They are nothing like humans. I think apes and humans are similar for other reasons.

    I also think that the similarities are more scientific than just 'looking' similar.

    FTR. I believe in God as a createor, but i believe it in the same sense another poster already mentioned. I think Evolution is God's design. I think God loves science.
    mom3girls likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KimPossible View Post
    I also think that
    You think... That is just it. You don't know. I am not saying not to teach evolution, but to leave room for the possibility that it is theory not fact. Let the students know that this is just one possibility and that we really don't know what happened. That other people have other beliefs. Teach it as what it is, a theory that some people believe and some people don't. Give the children all the evidence and let them make their own decisions. Not indoctrinate them 7 hours a day over 13 years so that they would never consider believing anything else.

    ~Bonita~

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    You think... That is just it. You don't know. I am not saying not to teach evolution, but to leave room for the possibility that it is theory not fact. Let the students know that this is just one possibility and that we really don't know what happened. That other people have other beliefs. Teach it as what it is, a theory that some people believe and some people don't. Give the children all the evidence and let them make their own decisions. Not indoctrinate them 7 hours a day over 13 years so that they would never consider believing anything else.
    Science has enough evidence to support evolution that they don't really question it any more than they question that the earth moves around the sun (also a "theory"). Pretending like science "just doesn't know" is just....not correct.
    -Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    Apologize for the Wiki, too tired to research more extensively tonight.

    Giraffe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    So for a giraffe to have evolved from some gazelle, 2 huge changes would have had to happen simutaneously for it to even survive. As the neck grew longer to reach food, (which wasn't really necessary at all because they can eat at lower levels) it had to evolve a complex blood pressure valve in the neck to go along with it. Plus they have no fossil record of anything like that happening. NONE

    "According to the competition hypothesis, giraffes use their long necks to advantage during dry seasons, when food is scarce; but, in fact, the opposite is observed in the field.

    "In the Serengeti [an animal preserve in eastern Africa]... giraffe spend almost all of the dry season feeding from low Grewia bushes, while only in the wet season do they turn to tall Acacia tortillis trees, when new leaves are ...plentiful ...and no competition is expected. This behavior is contrary to the prediction that giraffe should use their feeding height to advantage at times of food scarcity".

    "Moreover, they report, 'females spend over 50% of their time feeding with their necks horizontal [a behavior so common it is used to determine the sex of animals at a distance]' and 'both sexes feed faster and most often with their necks bent". These observations, they conclude, suggest 'that long necks did not evolve specifically for feeding at higher levels.'"[3]
    "When the giraffe lowers its head to drink, the valves close to stop the blood rushing to the brain. These same valves prevent all the blood rushing away from the giraffe's head, when the giraffe stands up again.... without these parts, all working properly, a long necked giraffe would not even be able to drink!" [4]

    "...it is not possible for evolutionists to make up a plausible scenario for the origination of either the giraffe's long neck or its complicated blood pressure regulating system. This amazing feature generates extremely high pressure to pump the blood up to the 20-foot high brain and then quickly reduces the pressure to prevent brain damage when the animal bends down to take a drink. After over a century of the most intensive exploration for fossils, the world's museums cannot display a single intermediate form that would connect the giraffe with any other creature." Luther D. Sunderland
    The Giraffe's long neck
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  10. #20
    Posting Addict GloriaInTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    Evolution doesn't talk about the first something, but there is a metric ton of evidence regarding humans evolving from a common ancestor as apes.
    Can you cite some? Because I haven't seen any.
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