Exodus International

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Exodus International

So the biggest gay repression organization in the US is shutting down and apologizing to LGBT people for their mistake in treating them badly.

Is this a watershed moment for human rights? Are there still people out there who think gay people can be cured? Does this ministry's apology even begin to address the horrible actions they have taken over 40 years?

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I don't know that it's a watershed moment, but I think it's fantastic that people are strong enough to recognize when they are wrong and publicly acknowledge it.

It does begin to address the actions, it really does.

And yes, there are still people out there who think gay people can be "cured". So it's really key to have organizations like this see the error of their ways and talk about it openly. It will help a lot of people, I hope.

Joined: 08/17/04
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While I'm glad they are shutting down and are acknowledging their hateful actions I was not impressed with their apology. Saying only "some" of their people hurt gay people. In my mind, they all did. Not just some.

ClairesMommy's picture
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It's an affliction, let's remember. At the very least a behaviour. Of course it can be cured.

"Change is possible," Chambers said in the 2010 report. "I stand by that phrase, and I live by it. The opposite of homosexuality isn't heterosexuality; it's holiness."

Read more at Exodus International President to Offer Apology in OWN Special Report

GloriaInTX's picture
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It is not a disease, so it can't be cured. You can however absolutely change your behavior. It has to be something you want to do for yourself though, no one can force it on you.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

It is not a disease, so it can't be cured. You can however absolutely change your behavior. It has to be something you want to do for yourself though, no one can force it on you.

The same way a straight person can change their behavior by having sex with someone of the same gender....it's exactly the same, and exactly as unpleasant, and exactly as unnecessary.

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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

The same way a straight person can change their behavior by having sex with someone of the same gender....it's exactly the same, and exactly as unpleasant, and exactly as unnecessary.

No it's the same way that a straight person can choose not to have sex with someone if it is morally wrong.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

No it's the same way that a straight person can choose not to have sex with someone if it is morally wrong.

No, it's not.

Obviously we are not going to agree on this one. But no, it's not even close to the same.

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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

No, it's not.

Obviously we are not going to agree on this one. But no, it's not even close to the same.

Obviously we aren't. Because I think it is exactly the same. Who you love is a choice. Who you have sex with is a choice no matter if you are gay or straight. If you don't think it is morally wrong to have sex with a person of the same gender of course you are going to make that choice. But it is still a choice no one is holding a gun to their head.

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I don't think it is morally wrong to have sex with someone who is the same sex as you. However I am not attracted to women like that. So I seek out relationships and sex with opposite sex.

I don't care if you want to have sex with 5 people, 2 people of same sex, not have sex. It's up to you. As long as everyone is of consenting age and is consenting I don't make laws around my moral compass or tell people they can't do things that they have decided upon as adults.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Obviously we aren't. Because I think it is exactly the same. Who you love is a choice. Who you have sex with is a choice no matter if you are gay or straight. If you don't think it is morally wrong to have sex with a person of the same gender of course you are going to make that choice. But it is still a choice no one is holding a gun to their head.

But whether you are sexually attracted to one gender or another is not a choice, and I will say the part you disagree with now, it's not morally wrong to be gay. Period.

Now you may say I'm being intolerant of your opinion, but of course I think the opposite.

And any time you have sex with anyone, it's a choice.

Love...well the poets would argue that it's not a choice. I've certainly fallen for the wrong person myself, and chosen not to act on it, and done everything I could to change my feelings, and eventually, over time, things changed. But it's not like a light switch. Choosing not to have sex is a light switch. Choosing not to feel something is another matter.

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I think that its great but sadly I don't think that its going to be a watershed moment. I think that to be a part of a group such as that one has to have a special sort of gay hatred/bigotry. I think that the real movement has to come at the every day level ~ the churches. Until that starts to occur on a mass level (and especially in the non denom churches in particular)........we aren't going to see mass change.

As Gloria pointed out, even amongst well educated, generally well off adults (like at Messiah College, which costs 30K/year) gay Americans are being bullied and hated on.......the Christian community is intolerant and hateful towards Gay people. Until the churches start to stop the hatred on a local level, we won't see the sort of change and acceptance we need to have.

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It is not about hatred or bigotry. For Christians who believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God it is the core of their belief system. That is something that will never change, regardless of what changes in society. The Bible clearly states 1) Marriage is between male and female 2) ANY sex outside of marriage is sin. You might as well say that we hate people who commit Adultery or couples who live together without being married. It is the same thing. The only difference is that most people who are committing those sins don't usually ask other people to accept them for their sin. How many people stand up and say "I'm an adulteress and I'm proud of it". For the Christians who don't believe in the Bible literally and use it just as a sort of symbol this is not a problem because they just use the parts that suit their belief system. But for Christians like me that believe in the unchanging absolute truth of the Bible nothing that changes in society will affect what I believe.

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RIght. Except history proves that that isn't true. Christians have changed the rules for themselves en masse many times throughout history. You like to say that you are divorced and remarried righteously according to the one biblical loophole allowing it.....but that isn't so according to other Christian sects. Its all about where you stand, and that line is ever shifting. You are lying to yourself if you can't look at history and admit that. All sin is the same in the eyes of God, Gloria. The Christian obsession with Gay sex is disgusting and strange. Working to deny people the same rights as others is wrong, when you yourself know you have told a lie or coveted or in some way at some time sinned, so are just as guilty as a gay person if you see homosexuality as a sin. Working against equal rights is wrong, period. Bible aside.

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"Potter75" wrote:

RIght. Except history proves that that isn't true. Christians have changed the rules for themselves en masse many times throughout history. You like to say that you are divorced and remarried righteously according to the one biblical loophole allowing it.....but that isn't so according to other Christian sects. Its all about where you stand, and that line is ever shifting. You are lying to yourself if you can't look at history and admit that. All sin is the same in the eyes of God, Gloria. The Christian obsession with Gay sex is disgusting and strange. Working to deny people the same rights as others is wrong, when you yourself know you have told a lie or coveted or in some way at some time sinned, so are just as guilty as a gay person if you see homosexuality as a sin. Working against equal rights is wrong, period. Bible aside.

Christians are not obsessed with gay sex. In fact we would be perfectly happy if no one ever brought it up. We are not the one's forcing it to the forefront of the media daily. They are the ones that feel they need to announce their sexual status to the world. Gays are obsessed with trying to force Christians to accept gay sex as not sin. I would agree with you I have committed many sins. The difference is that I repent after I commit the sin and try to not do it again instead of trying to justify and say it isn't a sin. I don't see gay marriage as a right. period.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

It is not about hatred or bigotry. For Christians who believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God it is the core of their belief system. That is something that will never change, regardless of what changes in society. The Bible clearly states 1) Marriage is between male and female 2) ANY sex outside of marriage is sin. You might as well say that we hate people who commit Adultery or couples who live together without being married. It is the same thing. The only difference is that most people who are committing those sins don't usually ask other people to accept them for their sin. How many people stand up and say "I'm an adulteress and I'm proud of it". For the Christians who don't believe in the Bible literally and use it just as a sort of symbol this is not a problem because they just use the parts that suit their belief system. But for Christians like me that believe in the unchanging absolute truth of the Bible nothing that changes in society will affect what I believe.

My husband believes that the Bible is the inspired word of God. It is the core of his belief system.

He is for gay marriage and does not think being gay is a sin.

Melissa is right, the line moves ALL the time, "loopholes" get found, not everything in the Bible is followed by even the devout.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Christians are not obsessed with gay sex. In fact we would be perfectly happy if no one ever brought it up. We are not the one's forcing it to the forefront of the media daily. They are the ones that feel they need to announce their sexual status to the world. Gays are obsessed with trying to force Christians to accept gay sex as not sin. I would agree with you I have committed many sins. The difference is that I repent after I commit the sin and try to not do it again instead of trying to justify and say it isn't a sin. I don't see gay marriage as a right. period.

Of course they'd be happy if no one brought it up, or asked for equal rights, or tried to stop discrimination.

Not all Christians. Just some of them.

Gay people are not obsessed with trying to force Christians to accept gay sex as not a sin. They want rights and acceptance and freedom from discrimination. And many Christians do not think it's a sin.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Christians are not obsessed with gay sex. In fact we would be perfectly happy if no one ever brought it up. We are not the one's forcing it to the forefront of the media daily. They are the ones that feel they need to announce their sexual status to the world. Gays are obsessed with trying to force Christians to accept gay sex as not sin. I would agree with you I have committed many sins. The difference is that I repent after I commit the sin and try to not do it again instead of trying to justify and say it isn't a sin. I don't see gay marriage as a right. period.

They are the ones trying to force good, righteous people to see the injustice of their plight. I'm sure if they were allowed to marry they would be quite content to simply live their lives like you and I. In states where they have won the right to marry and to have spousal benefits and rights you see that quite clearly. Its places where "they" are denied that right that "they" are "obsessed" with calling attention to the disparity of equal rights. Much like those troublesome women back in the 1920's or the pesky blacks were back in the 1950's. Notice how both groups simmered down once they were given their equal rights. I'm sure that by the time our children are adults and homosexuals have the right to marry in all states our kids won't feel as though gay people are "obsessed" with trying to force Christians to do anything. They will instead be studying how some groups oppressed others and lost.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

It is not about hatred or bigotry. For Christians who believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God it is the core of their belief system. That is something that will never change, regardless of what changes in society. The Bible clearly states 1) Marriage is between male and female 2) ANY sex outside of marriage is sin. You might as well say that we hate people who commit Adultery or couples who live together without being married. It is the same thing. The only difference is that most people who are committing those sins don't usually ask other people to accept them for their sin. How many people stand up and say "I'm an adulteress and I'm proud of it". For the Christians who don't believe in the Bible literally and use it just as a sort of symbol this is not a problem because they just use the parts that suit their belief system. But for Christians like me that believe in the unchanging absolute truth of the Bible nothing that changes in society will affect what I believe.

I would say that the big difference is that no one is trying to make audultry or co-habitation illegal. If gay people were allowed to marry, I suspect it would be the same situation where you are still allowed to look down your noses at them all you like, but we could all stop talking about it and get on with our lives. Huzzah!

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As I have said, how you personally feel towards things is your personal feelings. If you don't want a gay marriage don't marry a woman. If you don't want to have premarital sex...don't. You just don't get the option of hurting people by discriminating against their rights or bullying them into thinking they are wrong for how they want to live.

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I actually suspect that Christian groups mostly keep opposing the legalization of gay marriage as a way to stay relevant to the conversation. Like, as long as its illegal, we have to keep having this conversation about what all Christians believe about homosexuality. What they believe still matters to the general public because we're still trying to win equal rights for people. The second gay marriage becomes legal, they will still be allowed to believe its a sin, but those of us who aren't Christian won't really care. Like how it's a non-issue that Christians disapprove of cohabitation before marriage. They're allowed to think that. But those of unhs who are not Christian and have lived together before marriage just don't really care that much. Heck, one Christian even once told me that *I'm* not married to my husband because marriage is a covenant between a man and a woman and god! But I dont care that she thinks that. She's welcome to her opinion because it doesn't impact my life. I would fight her a heck of a lot harder if my legal rights were on the line.

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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

Now you may say I'm being intolerant of your opinion

Regardless of whether or not it is right, most of the posts on this thread (and the overall tone of the debate board) is very intolerant of Conservative Christians and their beliefs.

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

Regardless of whether or not it is right, most of the posts on this thread (and the overall tone of the debate board) is very intolerant of Conservative Christians and their beliefs.

I am only intolerant of beliefs that I feel are both morally wrong and harmful to others.

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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

I am only intolerant of beliefs that I feel are both morally wrong and harmful to others.

I am not disagreeing with that, but saying that there is intolerance of other people's beliefs.

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The thing is I support your right to think whatever you want. I don't support you actively voting or stopping another citizen for getting the same rights you get because you disagree with how they live. I disagree with a lot of situations but recognize they have the right to do what they are doing.

If you didn't like black people....fine you get to not like them. I don't agree and I will say you are a racist. But I will defend your right to not like them. I don't defend you trying to pass laws to prevent them from equal rights.

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"Jessica80" wrote:

The thing is I support your right to think whatever you want. I don't support you actively voting or stopping another citizen for getting the same rights you get because you disagree with how they live. I disagree with a lot of situations but recognize they have the right to do what they are doing.

If you didn't like black people....fine you get to not like them. I don't agree and I will say you are a racist. But I will defend your right to not like them. I don't defend you trying to pass laws to prevent them from equal rights.

And I will criticize people who post that they don't think certain people should have rights, and I will not be tolerant of those beliefs.

I also think that it's not okay to appropriate Christianity for the anti-gay movement. Lots of Christians have no issue with gay people, and lots of non-Christians are prejudiced against them. It's not a "Christian" thing.

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Agreed. I will criticize those views but back up that you have every right to have an intolerant view.

Of course I hate when they bring Christianity. Many Christians I know are perfectly fine with this.

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

I am not disagreeing with that, but saying that there is intolerance of other people's beliefs.

I strongly disagree with that and object to your continually vaguely accusatory posts. If you see this intolerance point it out rather than being all victomy and vague and accusing people of things, Bonita. I'm tired of it and find it a completely unacceptable debate tactic on your part. I'm totally intolerant of bigotry or anyone trying to limit the rights of other Americans, whether it is a Jihadist Muslim or a conservative Christian or anyone else doing it. Don't confuse intolerance of hatred or bigotry with a problem with certain religions. My entire family is conservative christians and I adore them. Not all CC are bigoted and I resent you confusing the two issues.

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

I am not disagreeing with that, but saying that there is intolerance of other people's beliefs.

I will reiterate what Melissa is saying. My issues (lack of tolerance) are not about Christianity or religion. But my morals dictate that I not be tolerant of bigotry, and the attempt or desire that usually goes along with it to limit the rights of people based solely on who they are. It has nothing to do what what religion someone has. Jewish, Christian, atheist, whatever....it doesn't matter. It is a large philosophical and moral issue for me as well as a personal one due to family & friends who suffer because of others with this views. The idea that gay people should just ignore their true nature and live their lives faking it is at best ridiculous and insulting and at worse offensive. Turn the tables and say it about straight people; that is EXACTLY what that view is asking people to do. (I know this isn't something you specifically have said, but it has come up in these debates a number of times.)

The tide is turning in this country and history will prove so many people wrong, as it has in the past with women's rights, racial prejudice, and more. Of that I have no doubt.

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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

I will reiterate what Melissa is saying. My issues (lack of tolerance) are not about Christianity or religion. But my morals dictate that I not be tolerant of bigotry, and the attempt or desire that usually goes along with it to limit the rights of people based solely on who they are. It has nothing to do what what religion someone has. Jewish, Christian, atheist, whatever....it doesn't matter. It is a large philosophical and moral issue for me as well as a personal one due to family & friends who suffer because of others with this views. The idea that gay people should just ignore their true nature and live their lives faking it is at best ridiculous and insulting and at worse offensive. Turn the tables and say it about straight people; that is EXACTLY what that view is asking people to do. (I know this isn't something you specifically have said, but it has come up in these debates a number of times.)

The tide is turning in this country and history will prove so many people wrong, as it has in the past with women's rights, racial prejudice, and more. Of that I have no doubt.

We all ignore our true nature occasionally.

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

We all ignore our true nature occasionally.

Yes we do. But I'm not talking about taking a moment to let a violent impulse pass...I'm talking about living your entire life in a way that goes against your very nature, when it doesn't hurt ANYONE and in fact contributes to those around you and society by having a loving relationship and/or family unit. This is what strengthens us as a culture, our family relationships. They hurt no one.

There's a huge difference between ignoring a fleeting instinctive impulse and living out your life in a lie because others think you should.

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

We all ignore our true nature occasionally.

Could you elaborate on this? Do you consider asking someone to marry and have sex with someone that they are not attracted to "occasional"? Could you marry and have continued sexual relations with a woman? I couldn't. Maybe you are better at ignoring your true nature than me?