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  1. #61
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    Without getting into a whole full blown abortion debate, try to imagine the point of view that a baby is a baby no matter if it is still inside you or if it was already born and 1 year old. Pretend for a moment that you believed this. Would you be ok with someone killing that one year old baby for any reason? If you think of it from that point of view, the comments do not seem as extreme. If you truly think abortion is murder, it will not matter to you the reason why it is happening, you would still not agree with it.

    I am not trying to change anyone's mind on abortion, or whether it should be legal. I know that is not going to happen on this debate board. Everyone has their own passionate view on this. I just want you to see where the person might be coming from.

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  2. #62
    Posting Addict KimPossible's Avatar
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    I'm going to step in here and say while I don't relate to the extreme conservatives views on abortion, i am going to agree with Gloria and dispute this idea that Mourdock's comment meant God intended the rape.

    To assume that because God would 'interfere' and intend a baby, does not logically follow that he would initially intend the rape.

    We have free will, and we exercise free will, and that is what can cause the rape to occur in the first place, yet God could theoretically have intentions/interventions of a baby coming from it, knowing that the rape would happen, due to the free will given to man.

    Lots of Christians believe that God does not pre-plan everything and gives us free will to use for good and for evil, but could intervene in some way to intend a baby.

    I only stand up for this, because its a huge assumption to suggest the 'only way his comments could work is if god intended the rape'

    a)that brands your vision of religoius theory onto someone elses and assumes things about their faith (dems and liberals aren't supposed to like that kind of thing!)

    and

    b)as i tried to explain, there are definitely other spiritual explanations that make sense that don't include God intending rape upon women.

    to insist that he meant the most offensive possibility sounds a bit narrow minded...or intentionally trying to find problems. (Because both parties do this all the time to make the other party look worse)

    I really do think its wrong to take what he said and say "oh he definitely meant god intended for the woman to be raped"

    I think we can find all sorts of things wrong with the conservative view on abortion without twisting this into something it wasn't.

    This comment is no comparison to other BS spewed by some conservatives about abortion and rape IMO.
    Last edited by KimPossible; 10-25-2012 at 12:11 PM.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    Without getting into a whole full blown abortion debate, try to imagine the point of view that a baby is a baby no matter if it is still inside you or if it was already born and 1 year old. Pretend for a moment that you believed this. Would you be ok with someone killing that one year old baby for any reason? If you think of it from that point of view, the comments do not seem as extreme. If you truly think abortion is murder, it will not matter to you the reason why it is happening, you would still not agree with it.

    I am not trying to change anyone's mind on abortion, or whether it should be legal. I know that is not going to happen on this debate board. Everyone has their own passionate view on this. I just want you to see where the person might be coming from.
    I can picture this and I completely understand where you are coming from and I think for you this is such a valid point. But I think it is an emotional one as is my view that a baby is a baby (or pictured as a baby) from the very beginning to me too. I just want women to have safe options.

    To me though, 1 year old child is a person and gets rights of personhood. Embryo/fetus does not and that's okay to me. Not just the abortion stance at all (I've said it before..I would love the need or want of an abortion to end) but because everything we as pregnant women do that is or could be viewed as negative could have very bad consequences!
    Last edited by Jessica80; 10-25-2012 at 02:51 PM.
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  4. #64
    Community Host Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    I guess I don't understand how God could intend the pregnancy but not the rape. The baby has to get in there somehow (unless we're talking immaculate conception.)

    Are you saying that god lets the rapist rape the woman and then gives her a baby as some kind of consolation prize? I just don't understand how the pregnancy gets divorced from the rape if you believe that god intended for the pregnancy happen.

    Edit: I'm seriously not trying to twist his words to make him look bad. I will agree that I don't think he was meaning to say god wants anybody to get raped. I just don't understand, like, from a biological standpoint, how the two can be separated. The only way the baby got there was through the rape, you know?
    Last edited by Alissa_Sal; 10-25-2012 at 02:29 PM.
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  5. #65
    Posting Addict KimPossible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    I guess I don't understand how God could intend the pregnancy but not the rape. The baby has to get in there somehow (unless we're talking immaculate conception.)

    Are you saying that god lets the rapist rape the woman and then gives her a baby as some kind of consolation prize? I just don't understand how the pregnancy gets divorced from the rape if you believe that god intended for the pregnancy happen.
    Because God gave us free will. God can't stop the rape, because then that means we have no free will. You treasure you free will don't you? (and as a non christian that would refer to your ability to make decisions for yourself and be response for your own actions) But what happens after that isn't a matter of our conscious control. If you are a believer in God, it can feel pretty reasonable that there was purpose put into that life. Its not for us to understand outright what that purpose is.

    I'm not saying you have to *like* the explanation or believe the explanation yourself....but people should try to understand it before assuming someone thinks God wants women to be raped.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimPossible View Post
    Because God gave us free will. God can't stop the rape, because then that means we have no free will. You treasure you free will don't you? (and as a non christian that would refer to your ability to make decisions for yourself and be response for your own actions) But what happens after that isn't a matter of our conscious control. If you are a believer in God, it can feel pretty reasonable that there was purpose put into that life. Its not for us to understand outright what that purpose is.

    I'm not saying you have to *like* the explanation or believe the explanation yourself....but people should try to understand it before assuming someone thinks God wants women to be raped.
    I edited to add that I agree that I don't think he meant to say that god wants anybody to get raped. I agree I'm sure that's not how he feels.

    It just literally does not make sense to me to say that god wanted the baby but not the rape, because the baby is a biological consequence of the rape. Like, I can totally get behind the idea that god gives us free will, and so if someone rapes a person, they were using free will and it's not that God wanted it. I'm 100% following that point of view. It's just the addition of "but God did mean for the baby that is the result of the rape" that is throwing me off. Like, the baby wouldn't physically exist without the rape, so how can God have meant for one to happen, but not the other?

    I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm trying to understand the thought process of how god can want the effect without the cause.
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  7. #67
    Posting Addict GloriaInTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    I'm seriously not trying to twist his words to make him look bad. I will agree that I don't think he was meaning to say god wants anybody to get raped. I just don't understand, like, from a biological standpoint, how the two can be separated. The only way the baby got there was through the rape, you know?
    Let's say my son is sick and needs a heart transplant. I pray to God to give my son a new heart. Well in order for my son to get a new heart someone has to die. So does that mean that I am praying to God for someone to die or that I want that to happen? Of course not. But if someone does die even though that is a horrible thing, something good comes out of it if my son gets a new heart. Being raped is a horrible thing. If the woman should become pregnant even though it wasn't intentional it is still a child. That child had NOTHING to do with it's conception and every child is precious to God.

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  8. #68
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    Gloria~I would actually interpret your prayer to mean..."God, I know someone is going to die....if that person has a heart and is an organ donor...would you please allow that to go to my son". Not that you want someone to die.

    To this though, it would be like taking your prayer example and saying...well this woman really really wanted a baby...God just gave it to her in the form of rape. That's awful.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    Let's say my son is sick and needs a heart transplant. I pray to God to give my son a new heart. Well in order for my son to get a new heart someone has to die. So does that mean that I am praying to God for someone to die or that I want that to happen? Of course not. But if someone does die even though that is a horrible thing, something good comes out of it if my son gets a new heart. Being raped is a horrible thing. If the woman should become pregnant even though it wasn't intentional it is still a child. That child had NOTHING to do with it's conception and every child is precious to God.
    But in your scenario, the person didn't die BECAUSE your son needed a new heart. It's not cause and effect.

    In the pregnancy/rape scenario, the baby literally can't be conceived without the rape. Like, it's physically impossible.

    I would also think that if there was an all knowing and all loving god that was giving out pregnancies to rape victims to give them something good to come from something awful, he would (in his loving wisdom) know which women would want to keep a child and which would find being forced to keep a pregnancy that is a constant reminder of her rape to be torturous. It doesn't make sense for a loving god to step in and give a pregnancy to a raped woman when he knows that she will find the pregnancy to be a continuation of the rape.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    I guess I don't understand how God could intend the pregnancy but not the rape. The baby has to get in there somehow (unless we're talking immaculate conception.)

    Are you saying that god lets the rapist rape the woman and then gives her a baby as some kind of consolation prize? I just don't understand how the pregnancy gets divorced from the rape if you believe that god intended for the pregnancy happen.

    Edit: I'm seriously not trying to twist his words to make him look bad. I will agree that I don't think he was meaning to say god wants anybody to get raped. I just don't understand, like, from a biological standpoint, how the two can be separated. The only way the baby got there was through the rape, you know?
    Quote Originally Posted by KimPossible View Post
    Because God gave us free will. God can't stop the rape, because then that means we have no free will. You treasure you free will don't you? (and as a non christian that would refer to your ability to make decisions for yourself and be response for your own actions) But what happens after that isn't a matter of our conscious control. If you are a believer in God, it can feel pretty reasonable that there was purpose put into that life. Its not for us to understand outright what that purpose is.

    I'm not saying you have to *like* the explanation or believe the explanation yourself....but people should try to understand it before assuming someone thinks God wants women to be raped.
    There are some things in life that are painful. Think of God as the parent and us as the child. You take your child to the doctor for a shot. That shot hurts a lot, and your child probably does not understand why you are putting them through so much pain. God might use the terrible experience of the rape to mold you and shape you into what he wants you to be. Like a beautiful diamond. It starts out as an ugly lump of coal. It is cut and burt to be shaped into the beautiful diamond. If that diamond could feel and talk, I am sure it would say what it went through was painful.

    Rape is TERRIBLE and I am not trying to minimize that. It can be turned into good though. The beautiful baby that comes from it. Or perhaps somewhere years down the line you have the opportunity to meet someone who has gone through a rape, and is so traumatised she wants to kill herself. You use your life experience to talk to her and give her comfort, and she therefore decides not to kill herself. 10 years later she finds the cure to all cancer. Yes, it was painful for the person to have that rape, but it was still used for good, and it still could have been part of God's plan.

    Not sure if that made sense or not, but I hope you get what I am trying to say.

    ~Bonita~

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