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  1. #101
    Posting Addict Spacers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddieflounder101 View Post
    Okay first of all, gay people can be celibate. There are gay kids who aren't even thinking about sex at all. This is not about sex.

    Second, what if a couple wanted a regular wedding cake (with no special symbols) for their Wiccan wedding? I'm sure that's against the baker's religious beliefs too. What if they're devil worshippers who want a regular wedding cake? They still get their cake! You're not allowed to decide who to serve based on religion, either.

    And third, this is where you get offended because I say what I haven't been saying yet, which is that you, and the guy who was fired from his job (f that's his argument), and the baker who refused to make the cake are all hiding your bigotry behind religion.

    Fortunately we have laws to protect us from discrimination based on bigotry, and fortunately gay people have legal options when they are refused service illegally by bigots. They can sue. Sometimes it's about your wedding cake, and sometimes it's about paving the way for future generations in the hopes that we can rid ourselves of such prejudice, and people who want to refuse service to gay people, or ruin their wedding cakes in the hopes of turning a happy occasion of love into a sad one of hatred and bigotry.

    Yeah...I gave up on pretending that's not what it is. 'Cause we all know that's exactly what it is. I know plenty of religious people who love God and read the Bible and believe it and do not have the same bigoted "I won't serve the gays" view as this baker. It's not a Christian thing, it's a prejudice thing.
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    Oh it has EVERYTHING to do with religion. Gay people forcing their beliefs on everyone else. I don't agree with gay discrimination laws period. There shouldn't be a protected class of people based on who they have sex with.
    I'm not a "protected class" per se, but an establishment can't refuse to serve me just because I am white. A bakery owned by a gay couple can't refuse to make me a wedding cake just because I am straight. Nor could they discriminate against someone ordering a wedding cake for their third marriage.

    With regards to a Jewish deli - that's different. I can't claim they are discriminating against me for not serving ham any more than I can claim discrimination because McDonald's won't serve me macaroni and cheese. Now, if I went to McDonald's and ordered a bacon double-cheeseburger in full Jewish garb, and the cashier said they wouldn't serve me pork, because I am obviously Jewish is discriminating against me. It's not anyone else's job to save me from myself. If I want to go to hell for eating pork or mixing meat and dairy, isn't that for me to decide? I'm just ordering the same burger you served to the man in front of me and the teenager behind me. But you're going to impose your religious beliefs on me?

    I don't really understand the religious high-and-mighty judgment. I can't buy a wedding cake because I want to marry a woman? Yeah, my religion is okay with it. So why isn't religion a protected class? Or is just your religion that should be protected? My religion is okay with a 3rd, 4th, 5th marriage; sex before marriage; getting pregnant before marriage and a white chick marrying a black guy.
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  3. #103
    Community Host Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    So it would have been ok for them to refuse a witchcraft cake as that would have been within their religious rights but not a gay marriage cake I guess. They didn't ask for a civil union cake. They asked for a wedding cake for a gay marriage. I don't know whether the baker would have objected to a civil union cake or not. If they were going to do a civil union I guess they would have done it in CO instead of having a wedding in Mass.
    I support their right to not offer a type of cake. That's like our kosher deli not serving ham, or our Jewish baker not selling Christmas cakes. I do not support their non-right to refuse to serve a type of customer. You can call it a "gay wedding cake" but unless there is something about the cake itself that sets it apart from what they normally sell, it's just a wedding cake, which is their normal wares. It's not the cake that is against their religion. The cake is the same old flour and sugar and fondant that they always sell. It's the people they've got a problem with, and that's why it's discrimination.

    On a totally unimportant side note, I'm confused by the logistics of this story. Why were they buying the cake in CO if the ceremony was in MA? Would be easier to buy a cake in MA than ship a cake from CO...
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  4. #104
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    I would never force a business to provide a service they don't normally provide. Can you ask your Jewish baker to make Christmas cakes...sure. Does he/she have to make them if it's not their normal dessert menu. No.

    If your Jewish baker sells Christmas cakes but won't sell to you because he doesn't like the Church you go to services at...that's a problem.
    Mom to Elizabeth (5) and Corinne (3)

  5. #105
    Prolific Poster ftmom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    I support their right to not offer a type of cake. That's like our kosher deli not serving ham, or our Jewish baker not selling Christmas cakes. I do not support their non-right to refuse to serve a type of customer. You can call it a "gay wedding cake" but unless there is something about the cake itself that sets it apart from what they normally sell, it's just a wedding cake, which is their normal wares. It's not the cake that is against their religion. The cake is the same old flour and sugar and fondant that they always sell. It's the people they've got a problem with, and that's why it's discrimination.

    On a totally unimportant side note, I'm confused by the logistics of this story. Why were they buying the cake in CO if the ceremony was in MA? Would be easier to buy a cake in MA than ship a cake from CO...
    It was not even really a wedding cake! They got married in MA, then came home to CO and were planning a party for friends and family in CO to celebrate their marriage. They were already married. There was not going to be any ceremony at this party, just a party. They were refused simply because it was obvious they were gay.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by ftmom View Post
    It was not even really a wedding cake! They got married in MA, then came home to CO and were planning a party for friends and family in CO to celebrate their marriage. They were already married. There was not going to be any ceremony at this party, just a party. They were refused simply because it was obvious they were gay.
    Nice. It's against this baker's religion to allow the gays to eat fancy cake at a party....

    Also, I was thinking some more about this, and wondering why a wedding would be against anyone's religion. As far as I know, it is "marriage" that people think can't possibly include gay people. But to my mind, a wedding and a marriage are related certainly, but still two very different things. A wedding is a party to celebrate the coming together of two people to create a family. It often happens at the beginning of a marriage, but it isn't necessary for a marriage (you can get married without throwing a party) and it also isn't entirely dependent on a marriage happening (some people have a commitment ceremony even if they can't or choose not to get legally married, and I wouldn't have a problem calling that a wedding. Also, some people have more than one wedding as they choose to reaffirm their vows, even though they are already married.) A marriage on the other hand is all of the actual time and work that you put in together towards being a partnership and creating that family. It reminds me of those awful brides on shows like Bridezillas who get soooo wrapped up in making sure that their weddings are "perfect" that they don't care who they alienate (including the groom!) I always want to tell them "A wedding is not a marriage, and the marriage is the important part."

    It seems very meanspirited to me to be against other people's marriages. It seems meanspirited and also completely trivial and petty to be against their weddings too. Like really, someone throwing a party is against your religion? Aren't you just a barrel of laughs?
    -Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)

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  7. #107
    Prolific Poster ftmom's Avatar
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    I wonder if bedmakers can refuse to sell to gay couples? Seamstresses that make sheets? Sex toy manufacturers? After all, something they made is a lot more present in the actual 'sin' than a wedding cake.
    Kyla
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by ftmom View Post
    I wonder if bedmakers can refuse to sell to gay couples? Seamstresses that make sheets? Sex toy manufacturers? After all, something they made is a lot more present in the actual 'sin' than a wedding cake.
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  9. #109
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    Can a BLACK establishment refuse to make a party plan for a KKK wedding?
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivergallery View Post
    Can a BLACK establishment refuse to make a party plan for a KKK wedding?
    I don't know what a black establishment is any more than I know what a KKK wedding entails, or what a party plan business is.

    Do you mean a wedding planner? Like if KKK members went to a black wedding planner and said they wanted to have a wedding and they hated black people but could they hire him/her anyway?

    I'm sorry...I just don't really understand this scenario.
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