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  1. #31
    Posting Addict GloriaInTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddieflounder101 View Post
    You added the sin part. He did not. The "choice" part is all his own and has nothing to do with religion, there is no specific religious book that says it's a choice. Saying something anti-gay (or racist, or sexist, or anything at all that someone would have an issue with) and then saying that the person doing that has to answer to the Lord doesn't turn it into a religious issue. It doesn't mean he's being fired for his religious beliefs. They don't care of he's Jewish or Christian or Muslim. They care that he made anti-gay statements and chastised someone for attending a gay pride parade. If he had been an atheist and made the same statements he'd be in the same trouble, whether or not he'd included the Lord.

    There's a debate here but it sure isn't about being fired for religious beliefs. He was fired for anti-gay statements. I'm guessing many of the higher-ups who had to make the decision are religious themselves, as many people are.
    So are you going to tell me what my religious beliefs are? I'm pretty sure that a LOT of religions don't follow the Bible literally, Catholics sure don't. So you are going to say that because the Bible doesn't specifically say that being gay is a choice it isn't a religious belief? Well I am telling you that it IS. Because that is exactly what I believe and it IS a religious belief. I didn't just think it up on my own. I believe it is a choice because it is specified in the Bible as a SIN, and all sins are made by choice. That makes it a choice. You may not like it because you don't want to be told that he is being persecuted and fired for his religious beliefs. But like it or not that is what happened. They were discussing gay marriage and that is the context that he answered the question. He didn't just start spouting off that he hates gay people. There is nothing wrong with saying that he would not attend a gay pride parade, I wouldn't either. By doing that he would be endorsing the belief that there is nothing wrong with being gay, when it is a sin. And I added the sin part because it was IMPLIED.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    So are you going to tell me what my religious beliefs are? I'm pretty sure that a LOT of religions don't follow the Bible literally, Catholics sure don't. So you are going to say that because the Bible doesn't specifically say that being gay is a choice it isn't a religious belief? Well I am telling you that it IS. Because that is exactly what I believe and it IS a religious belief. I didn't just think it up on my own. I believe it is a choice because it is specified in the Bible as a SIN, and all sins are made by choice. That makes it a choice. You may not like it because you don't want to be told that he is being persecuted and fired for his religious beliefs. But like it or not that is what happened. They were discussing gay marriage and that is the context that he answered the question. He didn't just start spouting off that he hates gay people. There is nothing wrong with saying that he would not attend a gay pride parade, I wouldn't either. By doing that he would be endorsing the belief that there is nothing wrong with being gay, when it is a sin. And I added the sin part because it was IMPLIED.
    I'm going to tell you that if you say God disapproves of civil unions, that is not a religious belief, it is a personal one, because there are no religious texts that cover it. How can it be a religious belief if there is no source for it in religion?

    I have no problem with a campaigning politician expressing his true political views. I wasn't the one who thought he shouldn't have said it; in fact, I think he SHOULD have said it because it clearly expresses his stance on gay rights, which is that he is against them.

    He is not being persecuted. He is being fired for his political stance on gay issues. Nothing less and nothing more. An atheist would have been fired in the same situation for espousing the same view. It's not because he's Christian (if that's what he is). It doesn't matter what his religion is in this case. He is being fired for making anti-gay statements, THAT is the objection, not his belief in God or his choice of religion.

    If my religion says it's okay to kill for revenge, and I kill for revenge and get arrested, was I arrested for my religious beliefs? No, I was arrested for murder.

    I'm not saying he doesn't have a religion he believes in. I'm saying it's not why he was fired. Do you seriously think they fired him because he's a Christian? Do you think they fire other Christians? Do you think it's because he believes in the Bible that they got rid of him?
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddieflounder101 View Post
    I'm not saying he doesn't have a religion he believes in. I'm saying it's not why he was fired. Do you seriously think they fired him because he's a Christian? Do you think they fire other Christians? Do you think it's because he believes in the Bible that they got rid of him?
    Yes I do. Because all of a sudden gay rights trump religious rights. Funny that religious rights are in the constitution but gay rights aren't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    Yes I do. Because all of a sudden gay rights trump religious rights. Funny that religious rights are in the constitution but gay rights aren't.
    Are they firing other Christians for being Christian? No they are not. He was not fired for being Christian.

    Slaves' rights weren't in the constitution either, as I recall. Women didn't have the right to vote, too.
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  5. #35
    Posting Addict GloriaInTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddieflounder101 View Post
    Are they firing other Christians for being Christian? No they are not. He was not fired for being Christian.

    Slaves' rights weren't in the constitution either, as I recall. Women didn't have the right to vote, too.
    No but they ARE going after every Christian that believes that being gay is a sin. He WAS fired for being a CONSERVATIVE Christian that believes that being gay is a sin. And other Christians who believe the same ARE being persecuted. Just like the Christian photographer that was sued because he didn't want to photograph a gay wedding that was against his beliefs and the Christian bakery that was sued because they wouldn't make a wedding cake for a gay couple. Religious rights are being trampled on in favor of gay activists.
    Last edited by GloriaInTX; 09-16-2013 at 12:12 PM.
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    I agree with Laurie that he wasn't really fired for religious beliefs. If he had been an atheist speaking out against gay people, he still would have been fired.

    Also, I don't think that your religious liberties protect you to the point of being able to alienate a company's customers and still retain your job. Lets say that a Christian felt that it was her religious duty to "share the good news" (many do feel it is their responsibility to try to convert people) with all of the customers that came into a shop, and she was making some of them uncomfortable. I believe that the shop owner would have a right to tell her to stop or even fire her because she is negatively impacting his relationship with his customers. This to me is the same, only more so because this guy wasn't giving a pro-Christian message, he was giving an anti-gay message. It would be more like if instead of saying "Have you heard about the great thing Jesus did for us?" our hypothetical shop worker was saying "Everyone but Christians go to hell." Even if that's what she believes, that's a pretty negative and alienating message for her to be putting out there to our shop owner's clientele. I believe in religious liberty but I don't think it's an automatic get out of jail free card to say whatever you want with zero consequences. In real life, words do have consequences sometimes. I can guarantee you that if I started calling my clients and telling them why I don't think god exists I would be fired before I could say "Christopher Hitchens" whether I have religious liberty or not.
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    Posting Addict GloriaInTX's Avatar
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    Except that he didn't say it on the job. It was something he said MONTHS before he was even hired and didn't have anything to do with his job. An atheist speaking out against gay people is a whole different thing, because they wouldn't be saying it because of their religious beliefs as he was.

    It's the same exact thing as the mayor telling Chick-Fil-A that they can't open a business because the owner doesn't believe in gay marriage.
    Last edited by GloriaInTX; 09-16-2013 at 12:39 PM.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    No but they ARE going after every Christian that believes that being gay is a sin. He WAS fired for being a CONSERVATIVE Christian that believes that being gay is a sin. And other Christians who believe the same ARE being persecuted. Just like the Christian photographer that was sued because he didn't want to photograph a gay wedding that was against his beliefs and the Christian bakery that was sued because they wouldn't make a wedding cake for a gay couple. Religious rights are being trampled on in favor of gay activists.
    If "they" -- as in his previous employers-- are going after Christians who are walking around SAYING that they believe being gay is a sin, then they are going after EVERYONE who says that regardless of their religion or lack of it.

    Their issue is the anti-gay stance, not the Christianity of it.

    As for the bakery, there are laws that you can't deny service to people based on sexual orientation. You can't refuse to rent an apartment to someone, you can't refuse to let them in your store or your movie theater, the cake falls under those laws. You can't refuse people's business based on sexual orientation, the same way you can't refuse their business based on their ethnicity. It's discrimination.

    If you have prejudices about race or homosexuality or what have you, then come up with a fake legal reason for your refusal, don't tell people outright that you're discriminating, because it's against the law.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    Except that he didn't say it on the job. It was something he said MONTHS before he was even hired and didn't have anything to do with his job. An atheist speaking out against gay people is a whole different thing, because they wouldn't be saying it because of their religious beliefs as he was.
    I agree that it is ridiculous that they didn't discover this until later. They should never have hired him in the first place, their mistake, they definitely owe him compensation of some kind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    An atheist speaking out against gay people is a whole different thing, because they wouldn't be saying it because of their religious beliefs as he was.
    No, it's the same thing. That atheist would get in the SAME TROUBLE for the SAME ACTION.
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