first dibs on jobs for U.S. citizens?
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Thread: first dibs on jobs for U.S. citizens?

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    Default first dibs on jobs for U.S. citizens?

    Should U.S. Citizens get offered a job before any non citizen, on the basis of nationality over merit? I know some U.S. government jobs are set up like this (see note), but I don't 'believe' in the workforce otherwise there is this rule. So, if there is, pardon me, just never heard of it..and it there isn't this rule, do you think there should be?


    Side note:
    (my friend a Psychiatrist at a VA had to go to a job fair himself and search out a candidate for HIS position because that is the rule for some government jobs, if there is an American available (not sure about merit) then it has to be offered to that person first, before renewing his contract) The debate isn't about Government jobs as such, but overall.
    Last edited by myyams; 03-15-2014 at 01:55 PM.
    Aisha

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    For clarification, are we talking about people who are in the US legally or not legally? I would think that if we were talking about someone who was a qualified legal resident of the US it would be discrimination to not hire them just because they were not born in America. If they were a non legal resident that would be different. If there was a legitimate reason, such as they did not speak good English and speaking English was a part of the job, than that is also different.

    ~Bonita~

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    I agree with Bonita. I'm sensitive about this one because I am not an American citizen but I have a green card and I can legally work here. I would never, ever get a job if people had to hire American citizens before hiring me. How could the rest of us possibly earn a living? It also screws over the employers, if they have a candidate they like and then have to hire someone else instead.
    Last edited by freddieflounder101; 03-15-2014 at 10:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    For clarification, are we talking about people who are in the US legally or not legally? I would think that if we were talking about someone who was a qualified legal resident of the US it would be discrimination to not hire them just because they were not born in America. If they were a non legal resident that would be different. If there was a legitimate reason, such as they did not speak good English and speaking English was a part of the job, than that is also different.
    We are talking about U.S. citizens as the post says. U.S. citizens can't be illegal.
    Aisha

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    Quote Originally Posted by freddieflounder101 View Post
    I agree with Bonita. I'm sensitive about this one because I am not an American citizen but I have a green card and I can legally work here. I would never, ever get a job if people had to hire American citizens before hiring me. How could the rest of us possibly earn a living? It also screws over the employers, if they have a candidate they like and then have to hire someone else instead.
    I don't mean it to be a harmful debate or one that hurts anyone's feelings.

    I'll tell you the background reason I'm asking. We are like you here, expats - but in a different country. We have legal residence status, work auth etc. similar to having a green card, but one that has to be renewed every 2 years or without valid employment is revoked - which is quite different than the green card but anyway, laws are slightly different. But they have to be too. People and culture is very different.

    When I moved to Saudi Arabia I learned about the Saudization program, which is a big web of something which I should not say. And I started thinking about it and how would it even work in other countries or if it would be helpful, harmful, etc. That's why I brought it to the table. We have some ideas like Affirmative Action. It's what some people call "Positive Discrimination" for example in Universities. Would not this be similar but focused towards employment?

    I was thinking that it's kind of cool for a country to protect its own citizens and try to take care of those first.



    Am I the only one who sees the side of the American? 40% of tech jobs are for foreigners. (note, we're not talking illegal aliens taking these jobs here) We are talking intentional employment. This is in just ONE field. Here is an article that discusses this.


    How H-1B Visas Are Screwing Tech Workers | Mother Jones


    https://cis.org/node/379

    Top 10 Companies That Request the Most Visas for Foreign Workers - ABC News


    Take a look at this for example:

    US headquarters in Teaneck, N.J., and global headquarters in Chennai, India

    Cognizant

    H1-B Visas Received: 17,964



    Headquarters: Mumbai, India

    Tata Consultancy

    H1-B Visas Received: 9,083



    Headquarters: Bangalore, India

    Wipro

    H1-B Visas Received: 8,726



    Headquarters: Bangalore, India

    Infosys

    H1-B Visas Received: 6,550


    Headquarters: Redmond, Wash.

    Microsoft (Microsoft suggests an unlimited number of Visas be available)

    H1-B Visas Received: 4,766



    Headquarters: Duplin, Ireland

    Accenture

    H1-B Visas Received: 5,799



    Headquarters: Armonk, N.Y.

    IBM

    H1-B Visas Received: 3,770
    Last edited by myyams; 03-16-2014 at 05:22 AM. Reason: added a link
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    I don't know that it's protecting your citizens to give them jobs when they aren't as qualified as other people who legally have the right to work. Let's look at the bigger picture.

    1. American citizens, the ones who were born here, did nothing special to receive their status. They had the wonderful good luck to be born here. So how does it help them to automatically get a job instead of someone more qualified? Does this improve America? Don't we already have an entitlement problem?

    2. Those of us with green cards had to go through a great deal to get them, many endured hardships and strain and difficulty. (I am lucky; it was easier for me being Canadian with a U.S. resident father.) So don't we want to encourage that attitude and drive here in the U.S.?

    3. I think there's a huge difference between replacing existing workers (as in the Mother Jones article) and just making your hiring decisions based on citizenship. Separate issue.

    4. I think -- and most Americans don't like me for this -- that the country is already chest-thumping enough without more of this. It's a great country in so many ways, but this idea that everyone who isn't a citizen is somehow "less than" is very disturbing. Immigration -- legal immigration -- helps our culture and our society in countless ways. Why make it even harder for people to get jobs and be part of society? How would anyone else EVER get a job? What would be the point?

    If you want to look at large companies that import work forces, that's a little different from a law preventing Joe Foreign But Legal Schmo from getting work.
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    I think that whoever is most qualified for the job should get it. If more of our tech jobs are going to other nationalities then as a country we need to help our kids become more prepared for these jobs (banning technology is not going to help this)
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    Quote Originally Posted by myyams View Post
    We are talking about U.S. citizens as the post says. U.S. citizens can't be illegal.
    There absolutely should not be a distinction between a US citizen that is a citizen because they were born here or a US citizen who was born somewhere else for any job other than President of the USA. I do not see how you could possibly argue otherwise. In my opinion, it would be no different than reusing to hire someone who was qualified just because they were Black or Muslim.

    ~Bonita~

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    I can see everyone's side, and I'm not really taking a hardcore side, but I am bothered by a few things nonetheless.

    Take a minute and actually read the concern, which despite being written as it is, still demonstrates accurate concerns:

    I, Cringely What Americans don't know about H-1B visas could hurt us all ~ I, Cringely


    And for the record Bonita, your post doesn't make much sense in line with this debate.

    My post isn't about where a U.S. citizen was born dear. It is about people who are not citizens here who are being brought over on for example Visas for work, particularly as I stated in just ONE example, in droves in so called high skilled areas where there is no real shortage as we need our citizens to get those jobs. Often it's truly coming down to salary. When a person gains experience in a job, their salary value increases, employers offer raises, etc and then after 10 years that same employee is likely earning 3 or 4 people's salaries. So employers try to hire off shore in order to lower salaries and bring home more profits to their company. Effectually, they are driving the salaries down and at the same time filling several hundred thousands of jobs. Almost 90K new visas are available each year, then there are some with no caps. Consider the duration each visa is for and you can see we have an issue to me. Multiply this out times and times again and that's how many citizens are not getting jobs.

    For example:
    According to Bureau of Labor Statistics data, the mean wage for a programmer in Charlotte, NC is $73,965. But the level 1 prevailing wage is $50,170. Most prevailing wage claims on H-1B applications use the level 1 wage driving down the cost of labor in this instance by nearly a third.
    Aisha

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    Quote Originally Posted by mom3girls View Post
    I think that whoever is most qualified for the job should get it. If more of our tech jobs are going to other nationalities then as a country we need to help our kids become more prepared for these jobs (banning technology is not going to help this)
    While I get this, I don't think this is the exact issue. It doesn't mean our people are not qualified. You don't necessarily need a PhD to do a job if you have an awesome MS person. It's not about this at all. It's mostly about salary, less benefits etc. However some companies would like to have us believe our own tech people are not educated enough.

    And mind you, this is truly NOT the only field of concern. I just cited one area to demonstrate the issue.
    Aisha

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