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Thread: first dibs on jobs for U.S. citizens?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddieflounder101 View Post
    I don't know that it's protecting your citizens to give them jobs when they aren't as qualified as other people who legally have the right to work. Let's look at the bigger picture.

    1. American citizens, the ones who were born here, did nothing special to receive their status. They had the wonderful good luck to be born here. So how does it help them to automatically get a job instead of someone more qualified? Does this improve America? Don't we already have an entitlement problem?

    2. Those of us with green cards had to go through a great deal to get them, many endured hardships and strain and difficulty. (I am lucky; it was easier for me being Canadian with a U.S. resident father.) So don't we want to encourage that attitude and drive here in the U.S.?

    3. I think there's a huge difference between replacing existing workers (as in the Mother Jones article) and just making your hiring decisions based on citizenship. Separate issue.

    4. I think -- and most Americans don't like me for this -- that the country is already chest-thumping enough without more of this. It's a great country in so many ways, but this idea that everyone who isn't a citizen is somehow "less than" is very disturbing. Immigration -- legal immigration -- helps our culture and our society in countless ways. Why make it even harder for people to get jobs and be part of society? How would anyone else EVER get a job? What would be the point?

    If you want to look at large companies that import work forces, that's a little different from a law preventing Joe Foreign But Legal Schmo from getting work.

    It's not only about qualifications. We do not have that massive of an educational issue here. We do have the issue of for example, tons of Chinese run factories creating products for pennies on the dollar which make it nearly impossible for Americans to compete and still bring home a profit. It costs much less to live abroad in some other countries PLUS they are willing or forced to work in inhumane conditions often times, for inhumane hours, for inhumane wages in line with their local economy, etc etc.

    I think yes I was lucky to be born in the U.S. I generally do hold an attitude though that before giving all of our U.S. money to other countries and getting involved so deeply, we have to do much more for our own country people. So I do think we are entitled to basic care which we are NOT getting. I see my parents suffering everyday and in crazy amounts of medical debt from not having insurance. I see her neighbors doing with basic things just so they can even get to the dr because gas prices are so expensive. I do feel like we are entitled to be thought of first before the rest of the world. YES I do. If that means that we can vamp up any training or offer special incentives then that's great. Perhaps that means NOT low balling salaries like in an example I gave.


    As for 3. Yes I can see where this is a concern. Based on citizenship. Unlike my Saudization example, I don't find it objectionable to include in that anyone legally authorized to work in the U.S. The issue wasn't that I was personally decided and stuck on that, but that was what brought the debate, as I stated earlier, this is a different country and have different nuances.

    4. I don't personally hold any opinion that someone is less than x due to nationality. Maybe some do. Not sure.

    Article:
    http://betanews.com/2012/10/25/h-1b-...teals-us-jobs/
    Last edited by myyams; 03-17-2014 at 03:49 AM.
    Aisha

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by myyams View Post
    It's not only about qualifications. We do not have that massive of an educational issue here. We do have the issue of for example, tons of Chinese run factories creating products for pennies on the dollar which make it nearly impossible for Americans to compete and still bring home a profit. It costs much less to live abroad in some other countries PLUS they are willing or forced to work in inhumane conditions often times, for inhumane hours, for inhumane wages in line with their local economy, etc etc.

    I think yes I was lucky to be born in the U.S. I generally do hold an attitude though that before giving all of our U.S. money to other countries and getting involved so deeply, we have to do much more for our own country people. So I do think we are entitled to basic care which we are NOT getting. I see my parents suffering everyday and in crazy amounts of medical debt from not having insurance. I see her neighbors doing with basic things just so they can even get to the dr because gas prices are so expensive. I do feel like we are entitled to be thought of first before the rest of the world. YES I do. If that means that we can vamp up any training or offer special incentives then that's great. Perhaps that means NOT low balling salaries like in an example I gave.


    As for 3. Yes I can see where this is a concern. Based on citizenship. Unlike my Saudization example, I don't find it objectionable to include in that anyone legally authorized to work in the U.S. The issue wasn't that I was personally decided and stuck on that, but that was what brought the debate, as I stated earlier, this is a different country and have different nuances.

    4. I don't personally hold any opinion that someone is less than x due to nationality. Maybe some do. Not sure.

    Article:
    H-1B visa abuse limits wages and steals US jobs
    Wait, are we talking about people in America or outside of America? I am confused by the references to living abroad and inhumane conditions (although of course the inhuman conditions exist in the U.S. too). I think if we're talking about people working for American companies in a foreign land, that's a very different issue.

    And yes, I do think a country should take care of its own first but I don't see what medical debt or gas prices have to do with this particular issue.

    I am confused...I don't think these arguments are connected to the topic. Or did I miss the gist of the topic?
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    Quote Originally Posted by myyams View Post
    We are talking about U.S. citizens as the post says. U.S. citizens can't be illegal.
    Quote Originally Posted by freddieflounder101 View Post

    I am confused...I don't think these arguments are connected to the topic. Or did I miss the gist of the topic?
    I am confused as well. Are we talking about US citizens would were not born in the US getting jobs over US citizens who were born in the US, or are we talking about Non US citizens with a green card getting jobs over US citizens?

    ~Bonita~

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    Or are we talking about US citizens (however they became them) getting jobs overseas?
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    There seems to be confusion as to what types of scenarios we are talking about here. I'll wait and see exactly what is meant.

    I will say this, my father was a doctor and came to this country to do his residency. If all residencies were prioritized to go to US Citizens first, which he was not one at the time...well i wouldn't even exist.

    I think it is a positive for our nation to draw international talent to our country. If they are better for the job, or can add something that someone else cannot, then I think they should be able to get the job.

    If this is not the type of scenario we are trying to discuss, then nevermind. But if any policies were made around this, they would have to be well defined, with very specific criteria, you cant' just do it on a case by case basis.

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    Regardless of which situation we are talking about, as long as someone is here legally the best person for the job should get hired. I don't know about you, but if I am in need of life saving surgery I want the most qualified person for the job regardless if they are black, white, purple, or blue and regardless of where they were born.

    ~Bonita~

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    Regardless of which situation we are talking about, as long as someone is here legally the best person for the job should get hired. I don't know about you, but if I am in need of life saving surgery I want the most qualified person for the job regardless if they are black, white, purple, or blue and regardless of where they were born.
    I agree with you but i do think in regards to the medical community that many hospitals get plenty of highly qualified candidates, none of which I would lack confidence in if they were chosen over another to take care of me. My concern is not that our quality of care would actually suffer....my concern is more with actually closing the doors to high quality, highly productive individuals from other countries.

    Doing that would have all sorts of negative effects in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KimPossible View Post
    I agree with you but i do think in regards to the medical community that many hospitals get plenty of highly qualified candidates, none of which I would lack confidence in if they were chosen over another to take care of me. My concern is not that our quality of care would actually suffer....my concern is more with actually closing the doors to high quality, highly productive individuals from other countries.

    Doing that would have all sorts of negative effects in my opinion.
    In some situations I do believe the quality of care would suffer. There are some Specialists that there are only a few people that have the level of expertise needed in the country. Sometimes people travel hundreds of miles to go to a certain specialist that is the top in their field. Not all of these doctors were born in America. I know when DH had his Kidney Transplant, the doctor was from India. There are not so many transplant specialist that we can be picky about where they are born. Even if there were, I still believe it would be very racist and discriminatory to do so.

    ~Bonita~

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    Posting Addict KimPossible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    In some situations I do believe the quality of care would suffer. There are some Specialists that there are only a few people that have the level of expertise needed in the country. Sometimes people travel hundreds of miles to go to a certain specialist that is the top in their field. Not all of these doctors were born in America. I know when DH had his Kidney Transplant, the doctor was from India. There are not so many transplant specialist that we can be picky about where they are born. Even if there were, I still believe it would be very racist and discriminatory to do so.
    Let me put it this way...I dont' think that we should be hiring people who are not qualified no matter what and i don't think thats what the OP was suggesting.
    freddieflounder101 likes this.

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    I am (not) speechless... I hope this will clear it up:

    I am talking about U.S. Citizens (but am completely open to anyone legally authorized to work). I don't personally care where the U.S. Citizen was born Bonita or where they live. I care about legal status.

    My main supporting example of my thought process "Leaning" (but I'm not a stubborn person if someone makes a case) toward thinking that there are WAY too many people being sponsored on Visas, which are NOT immigrant Visas. Please take some time and understand this: an H1B is NOT an immigrant Visa, however, it does not exclude someone from any path otherwise to citizenship but acquiring citizenship is nowhere close to this debate topic. Read Here to Learn what this entails.

    You may be eligible for an H-1B visa if you are planning to work for the business you start in the United States in an occupation that normally requires a bachelor’s degree or higher in a related field of study (e.g., engineers, scientists or mathematicians), and you have at least a bachelor’s degree or equivalent in a field related to the position.

    Initial period of stay in the United States: Up to 3 years. Extensions possible in up to 3 year increments. Maximum period of stay generally 6 years (extensions beyond 6 years may be possible).


    CLICK TO READ MORE ABOUT THE CAP


    I don't want any position to go to anyone unqualified.

    What is happening in this specific example in the Tech Industry is there are several hundred thousand foreigners here working in this particular industry.

    However, we should ask ourselves WHY the high number for foreign workers. Is it because we have a shortage? No. We don't. If we had a shortage of employees, we would see the salary demand RISE not fall. Foreigners, non U.S. Citizens, being sponsored from outside of the U.S. are willing to work for significantly LESS money than our own people. It has little to do with foreigners being such geniuses that U.S. companies just are drooling to get them. No. It is about salary decrease for similar skill sets. Reference to the study: CLICK HERE


    Our examination of the IT labor market, guestworker flows, and the STEM education pipeline finds consistent and clear trends suggesting that the United States has more than a sufficient supply of workers available to work in STEM occupations:
    The flow of U.S. students (citizens and permanent residents) into STEM fields has been strong over the past decade, and the number of U.S. graduates with STEM majors appears to be responsive to changes in employment levels and wages.
    For every two students that U.S. colleges graduate with STEM degrees, only one is hired into a STEM job.
    In computer and information science and in engineering, U.S. colleges graduate 50 percent more students than are hired into those fields each year; of the computer science graduates not entering the IT workforce, 32 percent say it is because IT jobs are unavailable, and 53 percent say they found better job opportunities outside of IT occupations. These responses suggest that the supply of graduates is substantially larger than the demand for them in industry.


    The tech industry has said that it needs more H-1B visas in order to hire the “best and the brightest,” regardless of their citizenship. Yet the IT industry seems to have a surprisingly low bar for education. The study found that among IT workers, 36 percent do not have a four-year college degree. Among the 64 percent who do have diplomas, only 38 percent have a computer science or math degree.



    So, ultimately, again, what I am saying is that large numbers of foreign workers are making up the tech field, approximately 40% are foreigners. Is this a problem? I feel it is because our own people are not getting jobs because of it. Is it because they are not qualified enough? Apparently this is not the case. It is more in line with other corporate strategies such as cutting the salaries to save money and since those present in the U.S. with status are not willing to work at almost 30% LESS salary, ultimately, the foreigner gets the job. Just like the China deal with manufacturing.

    The economy part Laurie... I guess that part wasn't understood. Foreigners tend to live differently in third world countries and they'd probably be thrilled to take an 80% pay cut from a U.S. salary in this field because when you convert it, still, it's a whole lotta money. So they are very used to a different lifestyle and are willing to take anything JUST TO GET to the U.S. and make a name. The details get worked out later as opportunities arise. I'm not upset but this is sort of part of the appeal, not blaming them at all. It's good for them..but it's bad for our own people who are thinking what the crp? You know? Why even try? Our education is much longer. Our education is much much much more expensive apples for apples in terms of esteem of institute. It's really demoralizing. Our people come out of school with crazy loads of debt to try to get their education.

    So I tend to lean on the side that we should be taking care of our own people before bringing almost a hundred thousand NEW people EVERY year to the U.S. for jobs. Unless someone can convince me why this thinking is wrong this is my view.



    Kim, the UK is actually limiting foreign doctors to a large degree. The U.S. also does in an unofficial way through individual programs by their own choice not ranking foreign medical graduates during matching season. There actually lots of difficulties for FMGs. I didn't mention the medical field though as the case point for this debate because it's a hairier and much more complicated case. Plus the Tech Industry, well, STEM, is technically the largest issue anyway.


    wanted to add, as I stated before, Bill Gates has openly suggested NO CAP at all be on the number of visas issued. And if we really look into this, the caps is extremely loosely defined and not really defined ...for sure. I hope that makes sense. The language intentionally leaves the possibility for many other avenues open.

    And I wanted to mention that some say that they use these to bring over geniuses from other parts of the world, and this is just not true. Some articles I posted earlier touches on this. So it's only a lot of fluff to justify the sponsorship of less paid people and not hiring our own.
    Last edited by myyams; 03-18-2014 at 01:30 PM.
    Aisha

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