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  1. #11
    Posting Addict Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    He is not physically taking them to a church, their parents do. Are you thinking they all meet at the school, and the school buses them to the church? This is not the case. They all either meet at the church for dinner if they want to (The parents drive their own kids in their own cars) or the school. Then a bus takes any kids that happen to be at the church to the school. This is no different than a bus rout having several children meet at one place before they are picked up.

    I will agree that this is a deeply religious area, but I do not think this coach was forcing religion on anyone. Anything done was strictly voluntary. I was at a graduation for this school last year. There was a prayer to open graduation, but it was done by a student.
    I don't care if he is physically driving them there, he is arranging it with the churches and then encouraging the kids to go. That is something that, as a public school employee, it is illegal (and frankly unethical) for him to do. As a coach and an employee of a public school he simply cannot be seen as endorsing a religion. It's against the law, and it's a crappy thing to do. You don't mess with people's kids. You just don't.
    -Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)

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  2. #12
    Posting Addict Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wlillie View Post
    Making fun of the other religion is the only thing I can see that he did wrong. The football team isn't hosting the meals; the churches offer up food to the players of the team. They aren't the only ones that do it and no one is forced to go. I have a feeling the complaint came from a google search made by the group. I am starting to agree with Gloria; they get closer and closer to a hate group every time I read about them. If the dinners are in a church it'd be stupid to go and then complain about the sermons. What kind of idiot attends a voluntary function in a church to get the free food and then reports the people providing the food for a sermon? Seriously?

    It's not tyranny, it's spaghetti with a serving of religion you can pass on.

    read more- the complaint was made by a 2011 graduate? Huh. Sounds like he's mad about not getting a scholarship to me.
    You don't think that breaking the law and violating the First Amendment of the Constitution and abusing his position of influence over these kids might be considered wrong? Whether or not the people of this particular school district like it, it's against the law for a public school employee to endorse a religion. Arranging to have kids eat and at a church and get preached at is very clearing endorsing a religion.

    In what way is the FFRF a "hate group?" They stand up for people who are having their first amendment rights trampled on.

    Also, why would him "being mad about not getting a scholarship" translate to him making accusations about the coach? Wouldn't the scholarships come from the colleges? Also, it's not like the accusations are false as far as I can tell. It sounds like the coach actually did those things, so if he did them, and they are wrong and against the law, why do we automatically have to suspect that the kid has some sort of nefarious ulterior motive other than "someone violated my first amendment rights and that's not okay." The fact that he's a 2011 grad makes me think that this shows that not everyone on the team is okay with it, but they probably feel social pressure to go along with it at least until they graduate, which is exactly why this stuff shouldn't happen.
    -Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)

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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    I don't care if he is physically driving them there, he is arranging it with the churches and then encouraging the kids to go. That is something that, as a public school employee, it is illegal (and frankly unethical) for him to do. As a coach and an employee of a public school he simply cannot be seen as endorsing a religion. It's against the law, and it's a crappy thing to do. You don't mess with people's kids. You just don't.
    I am in shock here. I completely and wholly disagree. I also have never heard of anyone having that opinion before. The first amendment does not strip you of the right to be religious. Just because you are a teacher, does not make you a non person without opinions. I went to a public school in NY (a very liberal place) growing up. Schools were allowed to advertise things that happened at churches. One time there was an emergency that my high school had to be evacuated. We were evacuated to a local church. No one thought it was a big deal that instead of letting several hundred kids freeze to death, they brought them to a church until their parents could pick them up.

    ~Bonita~

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    Community Host wlillie's Avatar
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    We have two atheists at work. Both of them are comfortable enough in our workplace to make fun of the others for believing. We have on guy who is supposed to be Mormon because his wife is, a Catholic, a Episcopalian, and two Baptists. If they make me uncomfortable I just ask to have the conversation changed. We've discussed the many prayers that you go through for every event for work and they both have said they can sit their quietly if it makes us happy. Neither of them have ever felt like the position of power that the prayer leaders has over them made them feel like they were trying to be changed.

    You and I both work in a male-dominated career field (and I think a lot of other debaters do too). Do you call up the human resources or equal opportunity line every time you hear something that is offensive to women or do you ignore them or call them out on it? Because I do the second two. If it bothers me, I say something. There is no reason for an outside organization that has nothing to do with me or my co-workers to get involved.

    I do think they are a hate group.
    Pages 1 and 2 are too nasty to post.
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    Prolific Poster ftmom's Avatar
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    I agree with Alissa Sal, just dont have much time to post right now. What happens in a workplace, or between adults is totally different then what happens in a school, especially when one of the major players is a teacher or coach. I dont think the two are really comparable.
    Kyla
    Mom to Arianna (5), Conner (3) and Trent (my baby)

  6. #16
    Community Host wlillie's Avatar
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    I do. We're military which is just like one big football team. Except we have more rules and less flexibility in following the rules. If we can deal with it without calling a hate group in, then why can't the parents of whatever student is bothered by this coach?

  7. #17
    Posting Addict Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    To Bonita - I agree, the first amendment doesn't strip you of your right to be a religious person. What is does mean that you can't use your official authority in a government setting (such as your position as a coach in a publically funded school) to push or endorse your religion. I am genuinely shocked that you have never heard of that before.

    I would argue that church buildings can be used for other things than just churches (for example, evacuations, or polling places.) But if they are actively promoting their religion or preaching to you while you're there, then that would be the first amendment violation in relation to a public school setting. I would say that having a coach organize a football event at a church that is being used as a church is a lot different scenario than a school evacuating to a church in an emergency situation.

    I'm sure there are places all over the US that have historically violated the First Amendment. That doesn't mean that it isn't valid, it just means that in the past it wasn't enforced as often.
    -Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)

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    How is it a big deal if the people meet at a church. This is a very small community. Everyone there knows everyone else. Just because someone is a teacher or a coach they can't arrange a fun get together before the game? It is on his own time in a non school building. If these meetings were taking place on school property or were required, I can see how there would be a problem, however, they are not required and are not happening on school property. A private citizen can do whatever he wants on his own time. If other people are there also, why is that anyone else's business? If a student felt threaten or that they were being pressured all they would have needed to do would be to call the school and say so. Knowing several of the people involved I can tell you with surety, if a student or parent were to call up a school in this county and tell them they felt their religious freedom was being violated, the school would take that very seriously and deal with it immediately. Calling in an outside organization was completely not necessary.

    ~Bonita~

  9. #19
    Posting Addict Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    Lillie, it sounds like you aren't arguing that what the coach is doing isn't wrong, but just that you don't like that the complainant called in the FFRF (will have to read your link here in a minute before I can respond to whether or not I think they should be called a hate group)

    Whether or not the complainant "should have" called in outside representation (which is within his rights to do, no matter who they are), I still think that he has a good point that what the coach is doing is wrong.
    -Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)

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  10. #20
    Community Host wlillie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    Lillie, it sounds like you aren't arguing that what the coach is doing isn't wrong, but just that you don't like that the complainant called in the FFRF (will have to read your link here in a minute before I can respond to whether or not I think they should be called a hate group)

    Whether or not the complainant "should have" called in outside representation (which is within his rights to do, no matter who they are), I still think that he has a good point that what the coach is doing is wrong.
    No, I don't think he was doing anything wrong (except the Mormon thing). If he was asked to stop (prayers and sayings; the church thing is just a huge ridiculous amount of crazy IMHO) and continued, I'd feel differently. If the kid had told anyone in a posiition to fix it before going to these people, I'd feel differently.

    Should the majority (betting that he was the only one on the team to be bothered) have to skip a free meal at a church because one kid doesn't want to listen to the sermon? Or should we use common sense and just tell people "No" if we don't want to do something?
    mom3girls likes this.

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