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  1. #91
    Community Host Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacers View Post
    This mother is essentially a 6-year-old child, she is not capable of making her own decisions. She has been assigned to permanent guardianship because she can't make her own decisions. We had an argument earlier about whether the parents knew, and now we know that they did and chose to not take the proper steps to protect their daughter, as we've seen by her leaving her group home and having sex with strangers for money. They did not do what a good guardian, or a good parent, should have done, so they have lost the right to make the decisions. Someone needs to step in and start protecting this girl, and the first step to that is to deal with a pregnancy that is going to do nothing but traumatize her even more.
    Even with her having the mental capacity of a 6 year old, I think it is more inhumane to force her to have an abortion she does not want unless it is medically necessary (like, if her life were in danger.)
    -Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacers View Post
    This mother is essentially a 6-year-old child, she is not capable of making her own decisions. She has been assigned to permanent guardianship because she can't make her own decisions. We had an argument earlier about whether the parents knew, and now we know that they did and chose to not take the proper steps to protect their daughter, as we've seen by her leaving her group home and having sex with strangers for money. They did not do what a good guardian, or a good parent, should have done, so they have lost the right to make the decisions. Someone needs to step in and start protecting this girl, and the first step to that is to deal with a pregnancy that is going to do nothing but traumatize her even more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    Even with her having the mental capacity of a 6 year old, I think it is more inhumane to force her to have an abortion she does not want unless it is medically necessary (like, if her life were in danger.)
    I agree with Alissa. My three year old would be sad if I told her she was going to have a baby and then I took it from her. Same with my five year old and seven year old.

    ~Bonita~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    It's the part that says that "Elisa has been known to leave the group home for hours or days at a time to engage in sexual activity with men at a local truck stop" that makes me think the parents had to have known what was going on. Surely even a really crappy group home feels the need to report it to the parents (and the police!) when a woman who has the mental capacity of a six year old has been missing for days. I have roughly the mental capacity of a 32 year old (roughly ) and my husband would surely tell my mom and dad and the police if I was missing for days.

    I agree that the simple act of putting her in a home doesn't indicate that they are neglectful parents, and that a group home may be the very best situation for many disabled people, and a very loving choice for their families to make. It's just that this particular home sounds awful, and I have a hard time swallowing that the parents had zero idea.

    Regardless of any of that, however, I do NOT believe that the state should be allowed to force an abortion on an unwilling woman for any reason. That is inhumane IMO, and wrong. If the woman wanted an abortion but the parents weren't willing to sign off on it, I might be more sympathetic to the state stepping in, but the fact that the woman wants to continue her pregnancy (mentally competent or not) and her legal guardians concur means to me that the state would be completely remiss in forcing her to have an abortion that she does not want.
    I think it goes both ways. If we don't want the government to force an abortion on anyone, we shouldn't be so quick to allow them to force carrying a fetus to term on anyone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ethanwinfield View Post
    I think it goes both ways. If we don't want the government to force an abortion on anyone, we shouldn't be so quick to allow them to force carrying a fetus to term on anyone.
    One is allowing the natural chain of events to take place. The other is performing an invasive procedure and killing an unborn baby in the process. It is one thing to say it is legal. It is an entirely different thing to force someone to have an abortion when they do not want one.

    ~Bonita~

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    Quote Originally Posted by ethanwinfield View Post
    I think it goes both ways. If we don't want the government to force an abortion on anyone, we shouldn't be so quick to allow them to force carrying a fetus to term on anyone.
    I agree. I'm pro-choice.
    -Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)

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    There is a huge difference between forcing someone to kill their own child and telling someone they are not allowed to kill their own child.

    I do understand the difference is that many of you do not believe an unborn baby is alive. I however believe that an unborn baby is every bit a baby as one that is already born and say 1 or 2 years old.
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    ~Bonita~

  7. #97
    Community Host Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    To me, the question about abortion is a question about whether we let women and their doctors make the calls about their own medical care and their bodies, or if we let the government. I feel it is inhumane to have the government step in and force an abortion on an unwilling woman. I feel it is also inhumane for the government to step in and force a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term. Both take the woman's control over her own body out of her hands, and both are deeply immoral to me.

    I understand that in the case of ending a pregnancy, we aren't just talking about one body, as there is an unborn child to consider as well. However, the truth is that pregnancy is the one of the few times I can think of where the survival of one person is so completely reliant upon the use of another person's body. If there were such a situation, such as if Person A were going to die unless they got bone marrow transplants from Person B, I would not favor the government stepping in and saying that Person B was required by law to give the bone marrow, even if Person A would die without them. I don't favor the government telling us what me must do, medically, with our bodies, even to save someone else's life. I believe that gifts such as the use of our bodies or our bone marrow must be given freely out of love, rather than forced.
    ethanwinfield and ftmom like this.
    -Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)

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    Posting Addict Spacers's Avatar
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    There's a huge difference between knowing that she has a baby in her tummy and being able to prepare emotionally & mentally not just for pregnancy, but for giving birth and giving that child away. Even grown women with full mental capacity have trouble making the decision to give up their baby for adoption. The rate of failed adoptions is high because so many moms don't want to give away the baby they grew in their body. And I read that she has epilepsy which requires medication to prevent seizures, which makes this a high risk pregnancy, so I would argue that there could be a valid medical reason to terminate. She's going to end up without a baby either way, so why add the trauma of giving birth and taking the baby away from her when she doesn't hae the mental capacity to understand it? That's what I find to be inhumane.
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    Community Host Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    The whole "violate her bodily rights for her own good" thing just doesn't feel right to me. I know we're all acting as though she's 6 and what would we do if she was our own 6 year old because of her mental capacity....but she's not 6. I guess the thing I'm really trying to sort out is what rights do we think that mentally disabled adults should have over their own lives and bodies? If the shoe were on the other foot and she wanted an abortion (with the mental capacity of a 6 year old) and someone were arguing that she doesn't have the emotional resources to deal with an abortion, I would be in favor of allowing her to have the abortion if she wanted.

    As far as I know, there is no truly pressing medical reason why she couldn't have the pregnancy OR have an abortion. I know you brought up epilepsy, but as far as I know her doctors aren't saying that she can't/shouldn't carry out the pregnancy, only that it will be high risk. Lots of women do high risk pregnancies; that in and of itself just isn't that compelling to me.

    I just can't get past the idea that as an adult woman, even handicapped one, she still has some autonomy over her own body.
    -Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)

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  10. #100
    Posting Addict Spacers's Avatar
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    Lots of women go through high-risk pregnancies because they understand the pros & cons of it and have the mental capacity to make their own decision. This woman has the mental capacity of a 6yo and her right to make her own decisions has been taken away from her. Her autonomy to her own body has been taken away, that's why her parents could place her in a secure facility without a court order. And IMHO her parents have lost the right to make decisions for her in this case by their lack of action when they knew she was getting out.

    The choice is possibly traumatizing her a little bit by terminating the pregnancy early, or absolutely traumatizing her a lot both emtionally and physically by allowing her to continue a high-risk pregnancy and then taking "her baby" out of her arms & giving it to someone else. Wherever possible, I choose to subject my children, and all people, to the least amount of trauma.
    David Letterman is retiring. Such great memories of watching him over the past thirty-two years!

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