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  1. #371
    Posting Addict ClairesMommy's Avatar
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    Okay, like since my first and only post on maybe pg 1 in this debate I've stayed out because it's just so freaking ridiculous to me - arming classroom teachers....Anyway, my real question is: Forgetting about the numbers of guns owned in the US and the guns laws (or lack thereof) didn't contribute to this latest mass shooting, then what did? And, more importantly, why are there so many freaking shootings and gun related deaths in the US? A HUGELY disproportionate number of gun related deaths compared to other countries where owning guns is legal????? Like, in Canada you can own guns. You have to register long guns, blah blah blah, but why on earth do we have a fraction of gun related homicides here, compared to the US? We just have fewer mentally deranged per capital? No, I don't buy that. I think that there's been this ingrained mentality for decades if not centuries about bearing arms and this self entitled righteousness to just go and shoot whoever you thing dun you wrong. That is messed up. The US is this 'most powerful nation on earth' and all that, yet you're destroying yourselves from the inside. Forget about terrorism and civil war and whatever. You're destroying yourselves. And that's a fact, at least from the point of view of just about every other country who witnesses what's happening on your own soil.

  2. #372
    Posting Addict GloriaInTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClairesMommy View Post
    Okay, like since my first and only post on maybe pg 1 in this debate I've stayed out because it's just so freaking ridiculous to me - arming classroom teachers....Anyway, my real question is: Forgetting about the numbers of guns owned in the US and the guns laws (or lack thereof) didn't contribute to this latest mass shooting, then what did? And, more importantly, why are there so many freaking shootings and gun related deaths in the US? A HUGELY disproportionate number of gun related deaths compared to other countries where owning guns is legal????? Like, in Canada you can own guns. You have to register long guns, blah blah blah, but why on earth do we have a fraction of gun related homicides here, compared to the US? We just have fewer mentally deranged per capital? No, I don't buy that. I think that there's been this ingrained mentality for decades if not centuries about bearing arms and this self entitled righteousness to just go and shoot whoever you thing dun you wrong. That is messed up. The US is this 'most powerful nation on earth' and all that, yet you're destroying yourselves from the inside. Forget about terrorism and civil war and whatever. You're destroying yourselves. And that's a fact, at least from the point of view of just about every other country who witnesses what's happening on your own soil.
    I guess you missed the part that gun homicide rates are decreasing.
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  3. #373
    Posting Addict ClairesMommy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    I guess you missed the part that gun homicide rates are decreasing.
    No, I have never missed that part, Gloria. It's just been so non-relevant that it's flown under the radar for anything worth admiration. From maybe 14 thousandd or so to about 12 thousand a year. And, you think that's just dandy. Well, let me tell you that the US has the most gun-related homicides than any other civilized so-called first country in the world. You can hardly compare your gun-related death rate to third world countries who are in the midst of civil war, invasion, hunger, dictatorship etc. etc. etc. The US has a long, long, long way to go before it can be compared to other first world countries in terms of gun related deaths per capital than other civilized countries. Please. For the past 200+ years the US has taken it's constitutional right to bear arms and turned it into something other than what 'right' was intented for.
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  4. #374
    Posting Addict GloriaInTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClairesMommy View Post
    No, I have never missed that part, Gloria. It's just been so non-relevant that it's flown under the radar for anything worth admiration. From maybe 14 thousandd or so to about 12 thousand a year. And, you think that's just dandy. Well, let me tell you that the US has the most gun-related homicides than any other civilized so-called first country in the world. You can hardly compare your gun-related death rate to third world countries who are in the midst of civil war, invasion, hunger, dictatorship etc. etc. etc. The US has a long, long, long way to go before it can be compared to other first world countries in terms of gun related deaths per capital than other civilized countries. Please. For the past 200+ years the US has taken it's constitutional right to bear arms and turned it into something other than what 'right' was intented for.
    You are right our gun-related death rates don't compare to third world countries who are in the midst of civil war, invasion, hunger, dictatorship etc. Canada sure does benefit from the protection our military povides with our guns though.
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  5. #375
    Community Host Sapphire Sunsets's Avatar
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    Gun Control Myths | LearnAboutGuns.com?

    Myth #1: Gun control stops criminals from having guns.
    Fact: Gun control laws do not keep guns out of criminals’ hands.

    Gun control laws don’t stop criminals from having guns, any more than the laws against murder stop criminals from committing that crime. A criminal who wants a gun will get a gun, whether they smuggle it in to the country, steal it, or buy it on the black market. The rampant gun related crime in cities such as Chicago and District of Columbia show that handgun bans and other strict gun control laws do not stop criminals from having guns, but instead only disarm the law abiding citizens.
    Myth #2: Guns are ineffective for self defense.
    Fact: Guns are the most effective means of self defense yet devised by human kind.

    A gun is able to effectively stop an attacker at a safe distance, before that attacker can injure or kill the law abiding citizen. A gun can be used by a small woman to stop a large man from attacking her, or by an elderly grandma to fend off a home invader. No other tool of self defense is as reliable, effective, and easy to use. Indeed I have seen people fire a gun for the first time, and consistently hit the target on their very first few shots. it is true that gun owners should seek training and practice to gain maximum proficiency with their firearm of choice, however this training is easily acquired at one’s local gun store or range.
    Myth #3: Gun ownership is not an constitutional right.
    Fact: The Supreme Court of the United States has conclusively declared gun ownership for self defense to be an individual right.

    In the D.C. v. Heller case, the United States Supreme Court made clear that gun ownership for self defense is a right of law abiding, non mentally ill, Americans. This right is independent of service in the military or militia. This ruling is in keeping with the text of the constitution, and the intent of this country’s founders.
    Myth #4: Guns are not needed since the police can be called.
    Fact: The police simply cannot get there quickly enough, or at all in some situations.

    Even for citizens that live right next door to the police station, the police can’t respond quickly enough. That is because it takes less time for a criminal, who is already entering the home, to kill or seriously harm a home owner than it takes for the police to get to the home and stop the criminal. Natural disasters or civil unrest can also stretch a police department’s resources to the breaking point, leaving citizens with no option but self defense.
    Myth #5: Only violent and uneducated people want to own guns.
    Fact: Gun ownership is a right that between one third and one half of all Americans exercise.

    This author is a well educated and peaceful gun owner, as are a great many gun owners. Law abiding citizens own guns for a variety of reasons, ranging from self defense to target shooting. Indeed it is the mark of an intelligent and peace loving person to make themselves ready and able to defend their home against criminals, while hoping that they never need to act in self defense.
    Myth #6: A home owner is 43 times more likely to be killed by their own gun than to kill an intruder.
    Fact: 65 lives are protected for every 2 lives lost.
    The long since discredited myth that gun ownership is more dangerous than beneficial was started by a Mr. Kellermann, in his flawed study “Protection or Peril? An Analysis of Firearms-Related Deaths in the Home.” There were numerous flaws in the study, including the fact that it only counted deaths, which are not a measure of self defense, any more than the number of suspected criminals shot dead by the police is a measure of police effectiveness. Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of the 2.5 million self defense uses each year don’t result in a shot being fired at all, meaning that this “study” totally ignored most self defense gun uses. The proper statistic is that 65 lives are protected for every 2 lives lost, which means that gun ownership is overwhelmingly safe and beneficial, both to the individual and to society. See Dr. Suter’s paper “Guns in the Medical Literature – A Failure of Peer Review.” Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia. Published March 1994.
    Myth #7: Banning so called “assault weapons” will stop crime, since these guns are especially dangerous.
    Fact: The ban on so called “assault weapons” only pointlessly targets safety and cosmetic features of these ordinary guns.

    So-called “assault weapons” are no more dangerous than any other gun, and are used by criminals in well under 1% of crimes. A gun is defined as an assault weapon if it has certain cosmetic and safety features, and the presence of these features does not in any way make the gun more dangerous or useful to criminals. Bans on “assault weapons” are merely a way of eroding gun rights and further complicating gun laws, making it difficult for law abiding citizens to know and obey the law. It is also important to note that the so called “assault weapons” are NOT fully automatic machine guns, which have been very tightly regulated by the federal government since before World War II.

  6. #376
    Community Host Sapphire Sunsets's Avatar
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    Disarmed British Citizens Continue to be Killed Despite Requests for Help from the Police | LearnAboutGuns.com?

    A recent article from the BBC discussed how in 2009-2010, 16 people were killed in England and Wales, despite having contacted the police to request protection from a violent individual. The news report noted that those 16 killings represented a near doubling from the previous year. More information on that situation, and my thoughts about the wisdom of trusting the police to preserve one’s life, are below:
    Sixteen people were murdered in England and Wales during 2009-10 after police had been informed about concerns over their safety, the police watchdog says. . . It added that the 16 killings which happened after police had been contacted compared with nine reported in the previous year. . . Seven were women allegedly killed by a current or former partner or friend. In each case either the woman herself, or other family members, had raised concerns with the police. . . In another incident, the perpetrator had warned police of an intention to kill. Another killer had been under police surveillance.
    Simply put, I find it to be quite unjust when the citizens of a county are disarmed, preventing them from defending themselves, then neglected by the police force that they have been told will protect them.
    Indeed I don’t believe it is ever wise to rely upon the police to ensure one’s safety. In the UK, as well as in the United States, the police are not legally liable for failing to protect any particular citizen, and often fail to promptly respond to requests for emergency assistance. When the police do respond, they shoot the wrong person from time to time – sometimes with fatal results.
    The British gun and violence situation
    In an impulsive and misguided reaction to a pair of high-profile shootings, the British government enacted strict gun control at the national level. These anti gun laws went as far as to ban the .22 target pistols used by the British Olympic Pistol Team, forcing those athletes to go to Switzerland and France to practice their sport.
    However, the gun ban laws didn’t stop criminals from acquiring and misusing guns. Instead, British criminals buy their guns the black market, or simply manufacture their own illegal guns. Crime statistics reflect this fact, showing a 40% increase in handgun related crime in the first two years after the gun ban took effect, and a doubling of gun-related crime in the first decade after the gun ban took effect
    . The result is that the violent criminals are armed, while their victims are defenseless.
    Turning specifically to domestic violence, it is worth noting that domestic violence offenders tend to be males, who are usually physically stronger than the women they are abusing. As such, these offenders are more than capable of murdering, beheading, setting on fire, or otherwise harming their victims, without a gun. Moreover, the kind of person who is willing to commit domestic violence crimes is not going to be deterred by the less severely punished laws prohibiting gun possession.
    It is also notable that even those British criminals who don’t have a gun are often quite capable of harming or killing their unarmed, physically weaker victims. In other words, a situation where neither the criminal nor the victim has a gun is often a situation in which the victim still loses. As an example, this elderly British man was tortured to death in his own home by unarmed criminals who incorrectly thought he had large amounts of cash they could steal. This elderly British woman was severely beaten and left for dead by an unarmed sadistic home invader who simply felt like harming another human for the fun of it. Similarly, this disabled woman was slashed with a knife by a gang of teenagers who attacked her and stabbed her dog to death for no reason at all. As a final example, I would note the stabbing death of Pat Regan, who was an anti-gun crusader. Again, looking at crime statistics rather than anecdotal evidence, stabbings in Britain have risen since the gun ban was enacted, and the stabbing of juveniles is up a staggering 72% over the last 10 years.
    Arming crime victims is the solution

    Armed domestic violence victims, on the other hand, are in the best position to defend themselves and avoid suffering the terrible sort of attack that Yvette suffered.This armed woman used her gun to stop violent ex who broke into her home and cornered her in her bedroom. This armed woman was able to defend herself against a rapist who came back to rape her for a second time in a week. Similarly, this woman used her gun to stop an ex-boyfriend who broke into her home, hid in a closet, and attacked her when she returned home. Indeed, I could list many more examples and go into the statistical evidence, but the point should be clear: armed self defense is effective.

    Sure sounds like that gun ban worked.

  7. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClairesMommy View Post
    Okay, like since my first and only post on maybe pg 1 in this debate I've stayed out because it's just so freaking ridiculous to me - arming classroom teachers....Anyway, my real question is: Forgetting about the numbers of guns owned in the US and the guns laws (or lack thereof) didn't contribute to this latest mass shooting, then what did? And, more importantly, why are there so many freaking shootings and gun related deaths in the US? A HUGELY disproportionate number of gun related deaths compared to other countries where owning guns is legal????? Like, in Canada you can own guns. You have to register long guns, blah blah blah, but why on earth do we have a fraction of gun related homicides here, compared to the US? We just have fewer mentally deranged per capital? No, I don't buy that. I think that there's been this ingrained mentality for decades if not centuries about bearing arms and this self entitled righteousness to just go and shoot whoever you thing dun you wrong. That is messed up. The US is this 'most powerful nation on earth' and all that, yet you're destroying yourselves from the inside. Forget about terrorism and civil war and whatever. You're destroying yourselves. And that's a fact, at least from the point of view of just about every other country who witnesses what's happening on your own soil.

    And don't forget... Spoiled little brats. Bigger is better, tougher is better, more more more more more. Of course people are going out to buy more guns these days.... THEY NEED MORE MORE MORE MORE. They want to scream out about their rights, and how they are entitled, yet their actions prove that we cannot handle our rights. They scream out that they don't want the govnt so involved, yet a preschool class acts more cordial than they do. Give me a break. It really is embarrassing to live here in the US.
    fuchsiasky likes this.

  8. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    Canada sure does benefit from the protection our military povides with our guns though.

    Gloria, may I ask which countries you think are poised to take over Canada if not for the US Military presence defending poor little Canada?

  9. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    Are you suggesting that if his mother hadn't owned guns he couldn't have gotten them somewhere else?
    We had a student suspended for pot a few weeks ago. Want to know what the mother said? "I bet he stole it from me again. I keep telling him to leave it alone." Okay, so the kid could probably get pot from a different source. Does that make it wise for a parent to provide it so the (adult or minor) child doesn't have to?

    The collective whole don't use that philosophy with most other things -
    My kid will drink anyway; I'll provide the alcohol for the party
    My kid will have sex anyway; I'll take him to a prostitute for his first time
    My kid will eventually break the law; I'll teach him how to shoplift so he doesn't get caught
    A lot of kids try prescription meds. If not from me, they'll get them somewhere else.
    My mentally-ill son can get an illegal firearm, so I will teach him how to shoot.

    After all publishing that gun list has made it pretty easy for the next Adam Lanza to go steal a gun in his neighborhood if he lives in that area. How many mass murderers have been stopped by gun laws. NONE
    We will never know how many mass murderers were stopped by gun laws because there is no way to measure that. We know how many weren't stopped. It's like asking how many women's lives were saved because we arrested Ted Bundy. Who knows? Maybe he would have been like the BTK serial killer and just stopped killing after a 17-year period.

    Let's say Adam did break into a neighbor's house who he knew had guns. And the neighbor shot him dead in self-defense. Then how many lives were saved?

    We'll never know.

  10. #380
    Online Community Director MissyJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    Okay, this debate is getting a little heated and personal in places. Lets all take a step back and try to refocus on the fact that we're all trying to come up with a solution to the problem of school/public shootings, we just have different opinions about what will be effective. We are all on the same side in that we all want to see these tragedies stop. Thanks!
    Sorry -- I'm battling the flu that attacked all the rest of my family last week. I tried to post on this yesterday from my phone but cannot find my post now. I just wanted to echo this. PLEASE refrain from the personal digs, demeaning nonsense, etc. and focus on debating the topic.

    ALL of you are intelligent women capable of sharing your ideas towards a solution. Unfortunately, this debate - like many others -- just represents to me how clearly divided we (as a nation) remain on which approach will have the best results.

    ~Missy

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