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  1. #41
    Posting Addict Rivergallery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    Just for the record.... homicide and gun homicide rates are going DOWN not up.

    FBI — Expanded Homicide Data Table 8
    Gloria can you find any stats to show how many of those guns were legally obtained?
    DH-Aug 30th 1997 Josiah - 6/3/02 Isaac 7/31/03

  2. #42
    Posting Addict KimPossible's Avatar
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    1- I did not say that CC'rs are better.. just that if there are more of them and if they are already on the scene they will have the opportunity to prevent it.. If they are not allowed to own the weapons there is no way a CC'r would be able to stop it.
    It is hard to argue against the notion that if some good person has a gun on them when someone is threatening lives that they can use it to stop the criminal. However, what we are sacrificing in return is not as easily measurable. How many accidental and inappropriate uses of guns by otherwise good people do we see. How much easier have we made it for criminals to get guns and use them, either by getting them themselves or taking them from good people, just so the CC'rs can continue to carry.

    You cannot tell me without a doubt that you know that the trade off comes out in our favor in the end. And I think we are at a point where we need to try. If we are wrong, we can keep fixing. I don't think its responsible for us to not even consider it at this point.

    - Assumptions can definitely be made if you look at what happens to societies when guns are highly regulated. Registration: The **** Paradigm - by Stephen P. Halbrook
    My anti-virus software wouldn't let me go to the site. It came with this computer but it seems kind of stupid because I saw a glimpse of the site before it stopped me, so I"m not entirely sure how its protecting me LOL. Anyway, i saw that it said something about hitler. I'm assuming this is about tyrannic governments taking control of their citizens? I will say that I do not believe for one minute that in this point in the evolution of our society we are in any sort of serious threat of this happening. I'm willing to take this 'risk' in order to make an attempt to protect more of our citizens every day for a current problem that we know exists...right now. There are nations that live with tighter gun laws who have not fallen to dictators.

    I agree something needs to change, but I do not think it comes in regulating law abiding citizens, it comes in not releasing criminals. And aiding with mental health care patients.. DO NOT allow violent people out on our streets period.. Then we wouldn't have to worry about criminals getting guns because there would be so little of them.. only those that had never committed a crime before would every commit a violent crime
    I agree with a lot of this. I'm not sure about the never releasing criminals thing. Only because it seems like an awful lot of these people are first time offenders, and I don't think our system can handle the load you are suggesting. Essentially you are saying "look elsewhere to fix the problem besides gun control"

    I'm just saying saying look everywhere to fix the problem.

  3. #43
    Posting Addict GloriaInTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potter75 View Post
    No. And if you want to hang your hat on a single incident, go ahead. You are still dead wrong.
    Its not a single incident

    Germany
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/12/wo...12germany.html

    Britain
    He must have chased the pupils all over the place, shooting at them til l they fell - News - The Independent
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  4. #44
    Posting Addict KimPossible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    Just for the record.... homicide and gun homicide rates are going DOWN not up.

    FBI ? Expanded Homicide Data Table 8
    It doesnt' matter much to me though, if they are always astronomically high relative to what is possible.

  5. #45
    Posting Addict KimPossible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivergallery View Post
    I do see it as a risk.. I would rather risk an accidental shooting than a homicidal maniac or a rogue government.
    We were posting exactly opposite sentiments at the same time

    I'm guessing this might be one of the big differences in the feelings people have on the debate.

  6. #46
    Posting Addict Rivergallery's Avatar
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    Repeat offender stats
    US - finding rates from 30-56% of violent crimes are from repeat offenders.. THE rate should be ZERO. and we could easily as a society make it so.. unless they escape from Prison. HOW.. NO BAIL period. And no release even for violent crimes, all rape, murder, attacks etc should carry a life or a death sentence. You ever rape someone, or murder instant life in prison. They would not be out doing it, and it would deter people from committing them, as it would be consistant. Especially if there was a heavy handed death penalty. I would even rather be heavy handed and even though it has never happened.. put to death one innocent person than allow the 30-56% of violent crimes to continue. It seems to me we should start there, not with laws that already are not working.. the people committing these crimes are already not supposed to have guns, and are already breaking the law.. why would another law stop them?
    Study: Prisons failing to deter repeat criminals in 41 states - USATODAY.com
    Why are so many Felons Repeat Offenders?

    Not just a US problem-
    Canada -
    Repeat-offender rate four times higher than reported? Vancouver Sun
    UK - 1/2million crimes by repeat offenders
    Repeat offenders responsible for half a million crimes - Telegraph

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    DH's school has an armed officer at his school. That is his sole job to guard the school. I think that frees the teachers up to teach. I would hate to be worried about shooting someone at the same time trying to teach math. I also can't imagine some nosey kid looking for the answer key to his teachers desk and finding a gun. That could go bad in so many ways. I think another alternative would be tasers if they were properly trained and out of reach from the kids.

    I do not think the answer is to ban all guns anywhere. They do have their place. They should not be given out to the mentally ill and should have to be kept locked up.
    ITA with this. Teachers should be teaching, not carrying guns. Here's something I wrote on FB this morning:

    "The problem *IS* guns. You simply can't kill dozens of people when you're armed with knives because those people know they have a fighting chance against you. And you don't need an assault rifle and explosive bullets to kill a deer or protect your home. There is absolutely no reason why anyone in America, at least anyone outside of law enforcement, should have that type of gun, those kinds of bullets. No reason at all. The Second Amendment says "a well-armed militia." It doesn't say anywhere that Joe Redneck gets to own multiple assault rifles and explosive bullets. It's time to put a stop to this. Kids shouldn't be dying in schools, and if Adam Lanza's mom didn't have those guns in her house, he wouldn't have been able to kill them all so easily."
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  8. #48
    Posting Addict KimPossible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivergallery View Post
    Repeat offender stats
    US - finding rates from 30-56% of violent crimes are from repeat offenders.. THE rate should be ZERO. and we could easily as a society make it so.. unless they escape from Prison. HOW.. NO BAIL period. And no release even for violent crimes, all rape, murder, attacks etc should carry a life or a death sentence. You ever rape someone, or murder instant life in prison. They would not be out doing it, and it would deter people from committing them, as it would be consistant. Especially if there was a heavy handed death penalty. I would even rather be heavy handed and even though it has never happened.. put to death one innocent person than allow the 30-56% of violent crimes to continue. It seems to me we should start there, not with laws that already are not working.. the people committing these crimes are already not supposed to have guns, and are already breaking the law.. why would another law stop them?
    Study: Prisons failing to deter repeat criminals in 41 states - USATODAY.com
    Why are so many Felons Repeat Offenders?

    Not just a US problem-
    Canada -
    Repeat-offender rate four times higher than reported? Vancouver Sun
    UK - 1/2million crimes by repeat offenders
    Repeat offenders responsible for half a million crimes - Telegraph
    I do think its very logical that a one time offender could be likely to offend again. But while you point to some countries that have this problem...there are others that don't. So maybe you don't have to keep them locked up forever. I'm not saying what the solution is, I'm not entirely sure, i'm just saying there must be some differences and we could try to figure out what those differences are.

    Either way...i suppose this is a different debate. I really have nothing against examining our prison system and fixing it too. Trust me, I know its not perfect.

    ETA:, just wanted to at least point out, that we are not talking about a gross majority of crimes happening from repeat offenders. At most about half....and even if we could apply that specifically to homicides, our homicide rates would still be a lot hire than many other countries if cut in half....

    ETA: what i just said makes no sense actually...i'm getting the math all messed up. If half of our criminals are repeat offenders, that is not half of all crimes committed as a whole. its even less than that. In other words, most crimes are carried out by first time offenders.
    Last edited by KimPossible; 12-18-2012 at 02:30 PM.

  9. #49
    Posting Addict GloriaInTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacers View Post
    ITA with this. Teachers should be teaching, not carrying guns. Here's something I wrote on FB this morning:

    "The problem *IS* guns. You simply can't kill dozens of people when you're armed with knives because those people know they have a fighting chance against you. And you don't need an assault rifle and explosive bullets to kill a deer or protect your home. There is absolutely no reason why anyone in America, at least anyone outside of law enforcement, should have that type of gun, those kinds of bullets. No reason at all. The Second Amendment says "a well-armed militia." It doesn't say anywhere that Joe Redneck gets to own multiple assault rifles and explosive bullets. It's time to put a stop to this. Kids shouldn't be dying in schools, and if Adam Lanza's mom didn't have those guns in her house, he wouldn't have been able to kill them all so easily."
    But she did already have the guns. The cat is out of the bag. You can't put it back in. What do you suggest, rounding up the millions of guns that are already out there? Do you realistically think that would EVER happen and people would willingly give up their guns? If so you are not living in the real world. Adam Lanza didn't kill those kids with assault rifles.
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  10. #50
    Posting Addict Rivergallery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimPossible View Post
    It is hard to argue against the notion that if some good person has a gun on them when someone is threatening lives that they can use it to stop the criminal. However, what we are sacrificing in return is not as easily measurable. How many accidental and inappropriate uses of guns by otherwise good people do we see. How much easier have we made it for criminals to get guns and use them, either by getting them themselves or taking them from good people, just so the CC'rs can continue to carry.

    You cannot tell me without a doubt that you know that the trade off comes out in our favor in the end. And I think we are at a point where we need to try. If we are wrong, we can keep fixing. I don't think its responsible for us to not even consider it at this point.



    My anti-virus software wouldn't let me go to the site. It came with this computer but it seems kind of stupid because I saw a glimpse of the site before it stopped me, so I"m not entirely sure how its protecting me LOL. Anyway, i saw that it said something about hitler. I'm assuming this is about tyrannic governments taking control of their citizens? I will say that I do not believe for one minute that in this point in the evolution of our society we are in any sort of serious threat of this happening. I'm willing to take this 'risk' in order to make an attempt to protect more of our citizens every day for a current problem that we know exists...right now. There are nations that live with tighter gun laws who have not fallen to dictators.



    I agree with a lot of this. I'm not sure about the never releasing criminals thing. Only because it seems like an awful lot of these people are first time offenders, and I don't think our system can handle the load you are suggesting. Essentially you are saying "look elsewhere to fix the problem besides gun control"

    I'm just saying saying look everywhere to fix the problem.
    It was a study done on the laws Germany passed before and during WWII regarding guns.
    Our System could easily handle it if there was the dealth penalty in acted swifter. Wouldn't you want to reduce it by 30-65%? A LOT of them are NOT first time offenders..
    DH-Aug 30th 1997 Josiah - 6/3/02 Isaac 7/31/03

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