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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    But we didn't JUST take our shoes off. We put air marshalls on planes. Yet we leave our schools unprotected except for a gun free sign.
    No. We have a security system in place, an armed deputy, and a note on the door saying please call [number] and be prepared to show ID. We practice for earthquakes, fires, and have regular lock-downs.

    No matter how much you do to make an airplane safe, if the pilot wanted to take it down, he could. No matter how much you do at a school, if it's a student bringing the gun, then what?

    Or, how about if the gunman cases the place for a week? Looks up the bell schedule online and knows that lunch is from noon - 12:30. Climbs up on the wall and starts shooting. Then what? You've got 600 kids and maybe a dozen adults. Even if all of the adults had guns, shooting the gunamn on the wall is going to put the students in more danger. Besides, the gunman either (a) plans on killing himself also or (b) is wearing full body armor.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by ethanwinfield View Post
    No. We have a security system in place, an armed deputy, and a note on the door saying please call [number] and be prepared to show ID. We practice for earthquakes, fires, and have regular lock-downs.

    No matter how much you do to make an airplane safe, if the pilot wanted to take it down, he could. No matter how much you do at a school, if it's a student bringing the gun, then what?

    Or, how about if the gunman cases the place for a week? Looks up the bell schedule online and knows that lunch is from noon - 12:30. Climbs up on the wall and starts shooting. Then what? You've got 600 kids and maybe a dozen adults. Even if all of the adults had guns, shooting the gunamn on the wall is going to put the students in more danger. Besides, the gunman either (a) plans on killing himself also or (b) is wearing full body armor.
    Or how about since the shooter plans to kill himself if someone there dares to show a weapon he does it sooner instead of later like happened in Ohio? This school didn't have an armed deputy or these kids likely wouldn't have died, and the security system didn't help. No school shooter has worn body armor, though it could happen. Though sales of body armor by scared parents is increasing. The guardians mentioned in the original article are using special bullets that wouldn't put the students in more danger, though even if they weren't I don't see how someone shooting back at him puts them in MORE danger. If nothing else he might have to duck and that might give some of the children more time to get away.

    Sandy Hook School Massacre: Sales of Children?s Body Armour Soar - IBTimes UK

    Does making a school a gun free zone stop students from bringing in guns?
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    Everyone of these guns started out legally manufactured and legally owned, now?

    This is how I hear the arugument:

    We gun owners are so irresponsible that we can't even lock our guns securely enough to prevent our own children from stealing them. We gun owners are so irresponsible that let our emotions get the best of us and kill others in anger or ourselves in desperation. We gun owners are so irresponsible that we have the means to plot and carry out our plan of evil.

    Your only hope against us, is to arm yourself in return. Because that way, when we do one of the above, you can meet evil with evil.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica80 View Post
    I don't think she's unhappy with America and the Constitution. Our founding fathers were not talking about the weapons we have today and I'm sure couldn't fathom them.
    Thanks for your permission to leave the country-- but I wasn't looking for it.-- Sorry, this was to Bonita, not Jessica.....

    As a couple, my husband and I really ARE struggling with the US in the last few years. We are troubled with the ongoing wars. We are troubled with denying rights to gay couples. We are troubled by a large part of the country that believes the ownership of assault rifles and killing weapons is more important than the safety of our youth. Troubled by police officers who are so used to dealing with criminals with guns that they shoot innocent young men. Troubled by a country that still carries out a death penalty. Troubled by the treatment of immigrants. We used to have so much pride in the US, but recent decisions and politics are affecting us and causing us to question just where we want our children raised and the values that we instill in them. I'm not so arrogant to think that the US is the only great country on this planet, or that there aren't other democracies that learned from our mistakes and created, perhaps, a more perfect union.

    This whole conversation about needing "guns" to arm a militia is ridiculous to me. Perhaps you aren't familiar with the type of weapons that our military holds and develops. Sorry, but I work with the Boeing's and the Lockheed Martin's and the JPL's and if you think your assault rifle holds a candle to the powers of our military, you are grossly mistaken. If the government decides to "turn on its people" as you propose, I dare suggest that your safe-o-guns isn't going to help against missile strikes.

    Am I the only one who finds is alarming that an 11 year old boy had access to a gun and ammunition just days after this shooting? How many innocent kids have to accidentally shoot themselves or a sibling/friend bc of the guns in their household? This is just crazy to me. Crazy.
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    We gun owners are realistic enough to know that there are evil people out there, and no matter how much you sing about unicorns and rainbows the only thing that can stop a man with a gun is a gun. And no matter how much gun control there is, there are 300 million guns already in the U.S. that there is no way even if it wasn't unconstitutional that you could round all those guns up when most of them are not even in the hands of the legal owner. There are plenty of gun laws that don't do any good because they aren't even enforced. So how does it help to create more laws that aren't going to be enforced? The government allowed THOUSANDS of guns to be purchased illegally and watched them walk into Mexico. Who knows how many of those guns are back in the U.S. now?

    Guns are not the problem. Every mass shooting except one has happened in a gun free zone. I don't get how you can think that declaring a place gun free doesn't attract someone who wants to shoot people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by boilermaker View Post
    Thanks for your permission to leave the country-- but I wasn't looking for it.-- Sorry, this was to Bonita, not Jessica.....

    As a couple, my husband and I really ARE struggling with the US in the last few years. We are troubled with the ongoing wars. We are troubled with denying rights to gay couples. We are troubled by a large part of the country that believes the ownership of assault rifles and killing weapons is more important than the safety of our youth. Troubled by police officers who are so used to dealing with criminals with guns that they shoot innocent young men. Troubled by a country that still carries out a death penalty. Troubled by the treatment of immigrants. We used to have so much pride in the US, but recent decisions and politics are affecting us and causing us to question just where we want our children raised and the values that we instill in them. I'm not so arrogant to think that the US is the only great country on this planet, or that there aren't other democracies that learned from our mistakes and created, perhaps, a more perfect union.

    This whole conversation about needing "guns" to arm a militia is ridiculous to me. Perhaps you aren't familiar with the type of weapons that our military holds and develops. Sorry, but I work with the Boeing's and the Lockheed Martin's and the JPL's and if you think your assault rifle holds a candle to the powers of our military, you are grossly mistaken. If the government decides to "turn on its people" as you propose, I dare suggest that your safe-o-guns isn't going to help against missile strikes.

    Am I the only one who finds is alarming that an 11 year old boy had access to a gun and ammunition just days after this shooting? How many innocent kids have to accidentally shoot themselves or a sibling/friend bc of the guns in their household? This is just crazy to me. Crazy.
    I do understand what you are saying. I live in TN instead of NY even though most of my family is there because I believe more in the values of TN more than the values of NY. What I was say is that instead of trying to do away with the Constitution, you can move to a place that fits your values more.

    ~Bonita~

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    We gun owners are realistic enough to know that there are evil people out there, and no matter how much you sing about unicorns and rainbows the only thing that can stop a man with a gun is a gun. And no matter how much gun control there is, there are 300 million guns already in the U.S. that there is no way even if it wasn't unconstitutional that you could round all those guns up when most of them are not even in the hands of the legal owner. There are plenty of gun laws that don't do any good because they aren't even enforced. So how does it help to create more laws that aren't going to be enforced? The government allowed THOUSANDS of guns to be purchased illegally and watched them walk into Mexico. Who knows how many of those guns are back in the U.S. now?

    Guns are not the problem. Every mass shooting except one has happened in a gun free zone. I don't get how you can think that declaring a place gun free doesn't attract someone who wants to shoot people.
    Your statements don't go together. How are MOST of the guns not in the hands of the legal gun owner and this is okay? We allow MOST of our legally purchased and registered guns to get stolen yet the solution is to go buy more and more guns to protect ourselves?

    This cycle of: 1. purchase a gun legally 2. gun gets stolen 3. decide to replace gun because bad guys have stolen guns. Repeat.
    scares the crap out of me.
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    Conn. massacre: Lessons from Israel, where guns are a way of life - U.S. News

    Conn. massacre: Lessons from Israel, where guns are a way of life

    By Paul Goldman, NBC News
    NEWS ANALYSIS
    TEL AVIV -- The Connecticut school massacre has raised the issue of gun control not only in the United States but also in Israel, where self-defense is not so much a point of law as a way of life.


    In Israel, schools are protected by armed guards, and everyone is on some sort of an alert for suspicious objects or people.
    Cars and personal belongings are checked at caf?s, movies theaters, public buildings and malls.
    Although security guards here are not your typical ex-Navy SEALS, they do act as a first barrier – a line of defense that could have saved the lives of the innocent children at Sandy Hook Elementary School.


    Young men carrying M16 rifles – soldiers either on their way back or coming home from their military base – are a common sight on main streets in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv.
    However, it is very difficult for any Israeli civilian to purchase and own a gun, and all must have a license to do so. The ownership of assault rifles by a private person is forbidden, and pistols are limited to one per person.
    In a country with a population of almost 8 million there are only about 300,000 weapons, of which just over half - 170,000 - belong to private individuals. The rest belong to security institutions.
    The license process, which must be completed every year, includes mental and physical health checkups as well as a firing-range exercise. Most importantly, it is a crime with harsh penalty to carry a weapon in Israel without a license.
    Security guards must meet regulations before they are granted the license to carry a gun; they must be at least 27 years old, unless they served in the army, in which case they can apply at the age of 21. They also need to be a resident of Israel for at least three years and sign a waiver that gives the health ministry and the police the right to check their health and criminal records.
    Yariv, owner of the Lahav weapon shop in Tel Aviv, told Israeli Army radio: "A very little amount of people buy private guns, since the Israeli citizen knows in advance that his chances to buy and own a gun amounts to zero.
    “Most of the buyers are men who are demanded by their work to carry a weapon.”
    There are only a few tens of thousands of legal guns in Israel, most owned by settlers living in the West Bank who are granted dispensation because of the need for self-defense while traveling to and from the West Bank.
    Such measures mean that, despite a backdrop of violence committed with illegal weapons, there are hardly any random killings at all. It is impossible for a 20-year-old to buy and own a gun openly

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    Do you think it is just a coincidence that out of the 6 movie theaters playing the Batman movie in his area, the Aurora shooter didn't pick the one closest to his home, he picked the only one that didn't allow guns and had it clearly posted they weren't allowed?
    It could have been the only theater in the area that was screening the film at midnight. It could have been the only theater that had parking spaces very near an emergency exit. It could have been the only theater that did NOT have alarmed emergency exits. It could have been some combination of all of these. He could also have been counting on the fact that never in American history has a mass murderer been killed by a bystander, even those who *did* have a gun on them.
    70% of the U.S. population now lives in a state where same-sex marriage is legal. At 36 and counting!

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    I know I already swore off this debate, but I just wanted to tell you what my DH said when I asked him about arming teachers (he is a high school English teacher.) I'm paraphrasing, but basically he said that the type of person who is attracted to teaching is different from the type of person who wants to carry a gun for a living. If you make carrying a gun a requirement for teachers, you are going to attract a different type of person, and that may not be the type of person you want teaching kids. Not because they are bad people, but because they have a different temperment. He also said that the amount of training and maintenance that you would need to be able to consistently react under pressure and hit moving targets would be similar to that of a police officer, and you would need to think about paying teachers for that extra training and maintenance, as well as how much time would be spent gaining and maintaining those skills vs gaining and maintaining the skills they use for teaching. He also said that he thinks that if a teacher is trying to hit a moving target (like an attacker) and hits a student instead, that is worse in his opinion, because the teachers are responsible for the kids, and having a teacher hurt one (albeit unintentionally) is worse. Finally, I asked him if he would want to carry a gun himself. He says no.

    So, some insight from a guy who became a teacher in Littleton in a post-Columbine world. Possibly skewed because, like me, he is not "a gun person."
    -Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)

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