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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacers View Post
    Very bad decision. As I've stated multiple times, when you choose to incorporate, you are legally removing *you* from the company, you can't be personally sued for debts the company incurs, you have no personal obligations to the company, you are sheltered from the tax obligations of the company, and in exchange for those legal protections you lose your right to exercise your personal points of view in some ways. Allowing these companies to claim that the companies have a religious right is absolutely wrong. Corporations can not have religious beliefs. At the least it does seem that the court limited this ruling to only a few very closely-held companies, but it's still a very bad decision.
    The supreme court and although I do not have any states on this I believe at least half the country disagrees with you. Owning a company does not strip you of all your freedoms. Nor should it.

    ~Bonita~

  2. #12
    Mega Poster mom3girls's Avatar
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    I believe the constitution was upheld today. And I loved the brief written by justice Alito.

    I also believe it is important to point out that this is not an attack on woman's rights, the pills in question are still readily available. The only thing that changed today was who has to pay for them.
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    A few things.

    One, Hobby Lobby has been investing in pharmaceutical companies that actually make birth control pills. So they need to get their "morality" in order.

    Two, they had better start offering the best maternity & paternity leave on the planet if they really want to show morality. If they don't believe in birth control, they'd better believe in making it financially possible for people to raise families.

    If they REALLY want to put their money where their mouthpieces are, then they need to go in whole hog. They need to pull out their investments from the companies that make the morning after pill, IUDs, etc., because right now they are profiting off of the very thing they don't want to pay for for their employees. And those employees are going to get pregnant if they can't afford birth control, which gets very expensive when it's not covered by insurance.

    OR...the real result of this will be that the government will have to offer additional coverage to the people who work there, which doesn't sound like something everybody is going to be happy about. They'll pick up the slack.

    I don't see how this is a good decision. Religious rights have to do with making choices for yourself, not for others.
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  4. #14
    Posting Addict KimPossible's Avatar
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    The government needs to get its head on straight. Is access to affordable birth control something they truly feel is a right? Or is it something they feel that you should have 'as long as your employer thinks you should have it'. There is no place for the second option...thats ridiculous. Our employers should not be deciding other people's morality.

    If people want corporations to be part of the equation in providing health care to everyone, then you can't say "everyone should have access to birth control" as part of the rules and then say "but not really" after the fact. Either its something everyone is supposed to have access to or its not.

    Bonita, you say you don't want corporations as part of the healthcare equation...but you seemed to take issue with the private exchanges in past debates too due to how expensive it is. Thats one thing about corporations providing it as a benefit, it helps keep it more affordable. Just curious what kind of healthcare set up you actually want? A single payer system? Something else?

    Ultimately people have to stop viewing allowing other people to make their own choices about whats right or wrong as a reflection upon their own morality. You can believe contraception is wrong and still let your individual, independant thinking employees who are not extensions of your master mind decide for themselves if its wrong. Just like you can be a citizen of this country and think homosexuality is wrong but let your fellow citizens, who are not you...they are themselves, decide if its wrong. The last doesn't have to really do with this debate...its just an analogy and another example of this "If I let other people exercise their free will to do something I think is wrong...I"m sinning too!" mentality. I hate it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimPossible View Post
    The government needs to get its head on straight. Is access to affordable birth control something they truly feel is a right? Or is it something they feel that you should have 'as long as your employer thinks you should have it'. There is no place for the second option...thats ridiculous. Our employers should not be deciding other people's morality.

    If people want corporations to be part of the equation in providing health care to everyone, then you can't say "everyone should have access to birth control" as part of the rules and then say "but not really" after the fact. Either its something everyone is supposed to have access to or its not.

    Bonita, you say you don't want corporations as part of the healthcare equation...but you seemed to take issue with the private exchanges in past debates too due to how expensive it is. Thats one thing about corporations providing it as a benefit, it helps keep it more affordable. Just curious what kind of healthcare set up you actually want? A single payer system? Something else?

    Ultimately people have to stop viewing allowing other people to make their own choices about whats right or wrong as a reflection upon their own morality. You can believe contraception is wrong and still let your individual, independant thinking employees who are not extensions of your master mind decide for themselves if its wrong. Just like you can be a citizen of this country and think homosexuality is wrong but let your fellow citizens, who are not you...they are themselves, decide if its wrong. The last doesn't have to really do with this debate...its just an analogy and another example of this "If I let other people exercise their free will to do something I think is wrong...I"m sinning too!" mentality. I hate it.
    So everyone has rights except for business owners? This is not about telling your employee that they can't have certain kinds of BC (BC that many feel is abortion or killing an unborn child), it is about forcing someone to pay for something they think is morally wrong. Just because you follow a dream and start a business, it does not mean that that dream strips you of all human rights.

    As for how insurance should be, I believe you should be able to buy it like you buy anything else. That several "stores" sell it, and you shop around for the best price and value and buy what you want. I think there should be Government oversite (no gouging), but not Government control.

    ~Bonita~

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    I would love to see a poll on what percent of people think that small businesses and corporations should not have religious freedoms.

    ~Bonita~

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    I don't see dictating policy for OTHERS as a religious freedom. And it's particularly hypocritical to invest in the very products you claim you don't want to pay for.
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  8. #18
    Posting Addict KimPossible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    So everyone has rights except for business owners?
    Sure they have rights...but they should not have the right to deprive their employees of something the government has deemed people should have. That is a ridiculous and rather frightening right. They have rights...THIS should not be one of them.

    This is not about telling your employee that they can't have certain kinds of BC (BC that many feel is abortion or killing an unborn child),
    Yes it is...because the government says that it should be part of people's healthcare plans, and is relying on employers to be part of that system that gets healthcare to everyone.

    it is about forcing someone to pay for something they think is morally wrong. Just because you follow a dream and start a business, it does not mean that that dream strips you of all human rights.
    ALL of your human rights? Thats a bit dramatic. An employer is paying for healthcare and is not in any way responsible for the way some individual that doesn't share their religion chooses to use that healthcare. If the employer feels like they are sinning by the fact that their employee, whom they should have no personal lifestyle control over, wants to get birth control, which is legal in this country...then that is their problem they will need to reconcile personally. If your religion makes it impossible to live in a country and interact with people of other religions...then that is a personal problem, it should not be the problem of an employee who is simply trying to gett healthcare through the channels that their government has deemed appropriate.

    If i give an adult child 50 dollars and say "Here, go take care of yourself with this" and then the child in turn uses that to do something immoral...I am not responsible for that. If an employer provides healthcare to an employee and then in turn that employee uses it to get birth control....that is on the employee, not the employer. If the employer think they are sinning in that scenario...then like i said, time to move to a religious state where people are controlled and restricted to the same religious practices you are.

    We live in a country that is trying to provide healthcare to the masses. The masses don't have a religion. If these things are problematic to someone....then a)fight the idea of providing healthcare to the masses, it obviously doesn't jive well with them. or b)fight for a religion based government so they don't have to worry about these conflicts.

    If people are going to live with other people of different religions they need to stop looking at an integrated society being something that causes themselves to sin. Hobby Lobby's money is going into all sorts of people's pockets that likely sin in their eyes. Its not like they have control over anything their employees do with their paycheck. I guaruntee you some of them are doing sinful things with that money. Like I said, if you can't integrate yourself with other religions...then you need to live in a country that has an official religion. A business owners OWN religious beliefs should not interfere with something that a non religious government has declared a healthcare right for its people.

    Actually, I would have less of a problem with people trying to fight the idea that birth control should be a healthcare right in the first place, then I would with this notion that it can be a right that only some people have to abide by but large corporations don't.

    As for how insurance should be, I believe you should be able to buy it like you buy anything else. That several "stores" sell it, and you shop around for the best price and value and buy what you want. I think there should be Government oversite (no gouging), but not Government control.
    So like a healthcare exchange? Thats what it is you know.

    From wikipedia

    In the United States, health insurance marketplaces,[1] also called health exchanges, are organizations set up to facilitate the purchase of health insurance in each state in accordance with Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (known colloquially, and sometimes pejoratively, as "Obamacare"). Marketplaces provide a set of government-regulated and standardized health care plans from which individuals may purchase health insurance policies eligible for federal subsidies.
    Last edited by KimPossible; 07-01-2014 at 11:11 AM.

  9. #19
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    I edited this post. Because while i liked the qusetion i had in it...i don't want my other post to be skipped and this one the only one that its responded to.
    Last edited by KimPossible; 07-01-2014 at 11:17 AM.

  10. #20
    Posting Addict GloriaInTX's Avatar
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    You do understand that Hobby Lobby covers contraceptives right? The only thing they don't want to cover is the morning after pills and IUDs. So are you saying that there should be some kind of RIGHT to FREE morning after pills and IUDs?

    The Green family has no moral objection to the use of 16 of 20 preventive contraceptives required in the mandate, and Hobby Lobby will continue its longstanding practice of covering these preventive contraceptives for its employees. However, the Green family cannot provide or pay for four potentially life-threatening drugs and devices. These drugs include Plan B and Ella, the so-called morning-after pill and the week-after pill. Covering these drugs and devices would violate their deeply held religious belief that life begins at the moment of conception, when an egg is fertilized.
    Reminder: Hobby Lobby Provides Coverage for 16 Types of Contraception - Katie Pavlich
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