JCrew and gender confusion

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JCrew and gender confusion

http://moms.today.com/_news/2011/04/12/6458726-jcrew-ad-stirs-up-controversy-with-pink-nail-polish

What do you think? Is JCrew promoting the transgender agenda and confusing little boys?

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Nah. It's really silly for people to get up in arms over a little boy and nail polish, pink or not. Both of my boys have asked me to put polish on them for fun, because it's cool to try whatever a grownup is doing. My daughter has asked for shaving cream on her face when she watches her daddy shave. It's sweet. It never occurred to me to think of any of that in terms of gender identity.

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If a little boy gets confused by seeing pink polish on a little boy in a picture, he's got bigger problems that his parents need to be more focused on. I swear I read a study somewhere that says that kids don't really pick pink or blue until they are older, but both sexes love red. I wouldn't paint my kid's toenails pink, but we are more traditional. I still wouldn't get upset with someone else because he asked.

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"wlillie" wrote:

If a little boy gets confused by seeing pink polish on a little boy in a picture, he's got bigger problems that his parents need to be more focused on. I wouldn't paint my kid's toenails pink, but we are more traditional.

To the first part ... Why? Boys are taught from a young age that pink is a girl color. You proved that in your second sentence. Why would it not be confusing for your son to see another boy getting his toenails painted if you're teaching him that it's only a "girl thing"?

That said, I have no issue with the article at all. It's like playing dress up, or dolls, or war. If my son put on a tutu and wanted to dance around the house, knock yourself out. Just because we're not assigning children labels and gender identities in the things they enjoy, doesn't mean we're scarring them for life. My daughter knows she's a girl, even if she doesn't enjoy playing with dolls, or barbies, or playing "Princess Peach" or whatever it is they play now. She's not a girl because she has pink nail polish on, she's a girl because she has a vagina.

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I make a big effort to never say that anything is for boys or girls to my kids. My son is very into pink right now because he sees many of his sister's new toys that have been gifted to her and of course he wants them. I have no issue with this whatsoever and I wouldn't regardless of age. I do buy my son clothes from the boys department and my daughter clothes from the girls department (mostly) but everything else I try to keep fairly neutral. I don't think my son would be at all confused by this ad.

If other little boys are brought up more traditionally that is one thing but to get all up in arms over the perceived message of this ad screams homophobe to me.

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Only sissy boys would be looking at JCrew anyway Wink

I have never seen any boy I know even open one so I'm not too worried.

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Nope I have no issue with DS playing with "girl" toys. At daycare he is the only boy under 12 months old, and one of only a few boys in the whole group (less than 20 kids over the whole week as most are just there a day or two) so guess who the majority of his friends will be. If he saw me painting my nails and wanted his done why not, it's just play and all kids love pretty colours not just girls.

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We absolutely do say that some things are "girl" things and some are "boy" things. I would not paint my sons nails. He is welcome to wear my daughters dress up girly clothes when they are playing dress up, but I am fine with espousing more traditional gender roles. Like it or not, (literally) over 99% of the men or boys that my son is going to encounter in a day do NOT wear nailpolish, I am fine with explaining to him why he won't either unless he is a grown up and chooses to. I make no effort at all to dress my children gender neutrally (DH and I dress in general cultural norms for our genders). I'm also not homophobic in the least.

I like crewcuts clothes but admit to hating their catalogue. I don't like seeing kids looking so "modely" at such young ages. Has nothing to do with girly boys or boyish girls, I just find it creepy and sad in general.

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It doesn't bother me. I think this ad has the ability to confuse a child based on a parents reaction to it. I don't think it could inherently do so.

Aodhan used to like to paint his nails. Don't remember if they were ever pink or not. It was just a socially fun thing to him...as almost everyone else in the house was doing it.

He grew out of that at some point and has been very against having to do with anything he views as a girl thing. I don't think we have purposely reinforced this...i think he's decided it all on his own from observation and from being at school. I've told him on occasion i would love him to wear pink, i think he looks nice in pink. He wants nothing to do with it! Tells me its a girl color. I even point out that his father has a pink oxford, but Aodhan doesn't care.

But i think it would be silly for me to completely ignore the fact that his societal observations are correct. When he tells me its a 'girl thing' or a 'boy thing', i'm not gong to pretend that its not true. When it comes to pink i acknowledge that more girls clothes are pink than boys but that lots of men do wear pink...and give a couple of personal examples that i know.

Or same with toys. I don't want him to be afraid to like something that he associates with girls (although he seems to be afraid), but i'm also not going to lie to him either.

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"Potter75" wrote:

We absolutely do say that some things are "girl" things and some are "boy" things. I would not paint my sons nails. He is welcome to wear my daughters dress up girly clothes when they are playing dress up, but I am fine with espousing more traditional gender roles.

I want to say, I don't think it's bad to assign gender roles in the home. I also don't think it makes you homophobic. I just don't understand how her two statements fit together. You can't say "Well my son/daughter would have no idea why that was confusing ... but we would never allow it because that's not something boys do." I don't think either parenting model is "wrong". It would definitely make my children raise an eyebrow if they were raised a particular way, and didn't realize that was not how other little boys were raised.

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There are lots of things my child will see as he's growing up that we won't allow, but that he'll understand. He's been exposed to lots of different cultures and beliefs and he may ask a question about them, but it's not confusing to him that other people do things differently.

I think that a child should be able to understand that some things are Ok for other families and not for theirs. If a child thinks that the only way people do things is their way they have a bigger problem than what color to paint their nails IMO.

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I've always been fine with my son painting his nails amongst other toys he would play with that were considered "girl" toys/things. He wore pink dress shirts. It doesn't create gender confusion at all. Pink is just a color and boys/men should be able to freely enjoy the color just as girls enjoy the color blue regardless of how they express themselves. I think allowing them to go beyond gender boundaries helps them learn to be better parents themselves. Don't some dads allow their kids to paint their nails or put their hair in pig tails loaded with clips and ribbons because it's funny? Great bonding time, imo.

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"Beertje" wrote:

I think allowing them to go beyond gender boundaries helps them learn to be better parents themselves. Don't some dads allow their kids to paint their nails or put their hair in pig tails loaded with clips and ribbons because it's funny? Great bonding time, imo.

How?

HOnestly if my husband was having a rollicking good time putting pigtails in my sons hair and painting his nails I would find it super weird. I have no problem calling that behavior "weird".

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"Potter75" wrote:

How?

HOnestly if my husband was having a rollicking good time putting pigtails in my sons hair and painting his nails I would find it super weird. I have no problem calling that behavior "weird".

I see it as no different than playing with dolls. By playing different roles, it teaches them that it's ok to be silly and to use one's imagination, it teaches empathy, it teaches respect and acceptance for the differences in others, and a tool to communicate. I personally find it odd that it's acceptable for girls to be tomboys but not the reverse for boys. Why is it weird for a boy to enjoy it? Why would it be uncomfortable for you or your spouse to do this? It's only nail polish and hair accessories. They all can be removed within minutes. Just speaking from personal experiences, my son allowed my older daughters to do his hair and nails just for fun even as a preteen. He knew it was temporary and thought it was funny. We all thought it was hysterical as he would imitate a person based on how he looked. He chose to remove the nail polish before going to school.

Now that he's an adult, even with his youngest siblings, he gets right in there and allows them to play with his hair, play dress up and put makeup on his face. He also gets rough and tumbly with them, chasing or wrestling with them while they squeal with delight. He does this because not only does he enjoy this, but he knows they are having fun with him. Great bonding experiences. Seeing this, I know he'll make a great parent some day in the far future.

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"Potter75" wrote:

How?

HOnestly if my husband was having a rollicking good time putting pigtails in my sons hair and painting his nails I would find it super weird. I have no problem calling that behavior "weird".

Eh, my kids pretends to be a frog, Elmo, a BFing mommy, and all sorts of things. I do follow traditional gender roles when dressing my kids but imaginative play is totally different IMO. To me, seeing DH letting DS dress as a girl just for fun is no weirder than seeing DH pretend to be a frog with DS. Especially with a 2 year old. Now if DH suggested it that would be weirder, and if DH dressed DS like a girl to go out I think that would be crossing the line for me.

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"Beertje" wrote:

I see it as no different than playing with dolls. By playing different roles, it teaches them that it's ok to be silly and to use one's imagination, it teaches empathy, it teaches respect and acceptance for the differences in others, and a tool to communicate.

Ha Ha your boys must play differently with dolls than mine do. When mine play with dolls they are diving off the top of the Barbie house.

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"Andy1784" wrote:

Eh, my kids pretends to be a frog, Elmo, a BFing mommy, and all sorts of things. I do follow traditional gender roles when dressing my kids but imaginative play is totally different IMO. To me, seeing DH letting DS dress as a girl just for fun is no weirder than seeing DH pretend to be a frog with DS. Especially with a 2 year old. Now if DH suggested it that would be weirder, and if DH dressed DS like a girl to go out I think that would be crossing the line for me.

I understand that all households run differently. But yeah, me finding my DH playing dress up like a girl/hair salon/makeover with my son would be very uncomfortable to me. My boy has no need to wear make up or paint his nails. It isn't odd to see him wearing a beautiful ball gown on occasion, but he would not wear that out, or wear pigtails, or nailpolish or makeup, period. Call us weird like that.

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"wlillie" wrote:

If a little boy gets confused by seeing pink polish on a little boy in a picture, he's got bigger problems that his parents need to be more focused on. I swear I read a study somewhere that says that kids don't really pick pink or blue until they are older, but both sexes love red. I wouldn't paint my kid's toenails pink, but we are more traditional. I still wouldn't get upset with someone else because he asked.

I don't know about that. Having a little girl we made an huge effort to not buy anything but tan/camo type clothing and let her wear handymedowns from her brother. Since hitting 2 this little girl has gone girl crazy and squeals when she sees pink and loves to wear girly shoes.

My hubby always thought that pink/blue preference was forced by the parents but after seeing our girl totally go gaga over pink frilly stuff, he has changed his mind.

oh and on the fingernail polish thing, Robert painted Victoria's nails for the first time 2 days ago, she loved it and the next thing I saw was my son paint his thumbnail pink ROFL I got a pic of that before he knew I was there! ROFL

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Ha Ha your boys must play differently with dolls than mine do. When mine play with dolls they are diving off the top of the Barbie house.

Barbie heads pop off and were very active in whipping them off his Knex roller coasters and ferris wheels, dolls he treated very differently! I don't know if he saw the dolls more as babies when he was little?

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"Beertje" wrote:

I see it as no different than playing with dolls. By playing different roles, it teaches them that it's ok to be silly and to use one's imagination, it teaches empathy, it teaches respect and acceptance for the differences in others, and a tool to communicate. I personally find it odd that it's acceptable for girls to be tomboys but not the reverse for boys. Why is it weird for a boy to enjoy it? Why would it be uncomfortable for you or your spouse to do this? It's only nail polish and hair accessories. They all can be removed within minutes. Just speaking from personal experiences, my son allowed my older daughters to do his hair and nails just for fun even as a preteen. He knew it was temporary and thought it was funny. We all thought it was hysterical as he would imitate a person based on how he looked. He chose to remove the nail polish before going to school.

Now that he's an adult, even with his youngest siblings, he gets right in there and allows them to play with his hair, play dress up and put makeup on his face. He also gets rough and tumbly with them, chasing or wrestling with them while they squeal with delight. He does this because not only does he enjoy this, but he knows they are having fun with him. Great bonding experiences. Seeing this, I know he'll make a great parent some day in the far future.

I don't see putting on nail polish as imaginative play. Where is the imagination in it? I also don't think that kids who don't like to do cross gender things will be "not great parents". Many people are wonderful at playing with kids in different ways.

To the bolded, I don't know. It would be uncomfortable for me if my husband put on my lingerie. Maybe I'm just weird, as clearly that would not bother you, because it is just imaginative play! It would be weird in our society//culture/circle of friends for my son to go out in public with nailpolish and pigtails, or a garter belt. I'm rather glad about that, honestly. I am just fine with my son loving sports and common "boy things", it makes all of this very easy for us, honestly. Makes it easy for him, too.

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I love how boys often have their own brand of "girl play". My son was playing with his lion while I BFed DD the other day. He watched me for a second and proceeded to wrap his lion in a blanket and then lifted his shirt and put the lion to his chest. After BFing his lion he whipped it back out of the blanket and made it attack and eat a plush bunny nearby. He went from motherly to carnage in a split second. It was funny to watch.

"Potter75" wrote:

I understand that all households run differently. But yeah, me finding my DH playing dress up like a girl/hair salon/makeover with my son would be very uncomfortable to me. My boy has no need to wear make up or paint his nails. It isn't odd to see him wearing a beautiful ball gown on occasion, but he would not wear that out, or wear pigtails, or nailpolish or makeup, period. Call us weird like that.

I don't find that weird at all, just different than me.

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"Potter75" wrote:

I understand that all households run differently. But yeah, me finding my DH playing dress up like a girl/hair salon/makeover with my son would be very uncomfortable to me. My boy has no need to wear make up or paint his nails. It isn't odd to see him wearing a beautiful ball gown on occasion, but he would not wear that out, or wear pigtails, or nailpolish or makeup, period. Call us weird like that.

I agree with this. In general, if my DS wanted his toenails painted I wouldn't care, I would paint them for him. But to see my DH doing it...I just think it would weird me out a bit.

To the OP, the ad doesn't bother me, nor do I think it promotes a transgender agenda or whatever. That strikes me as about as absurd as when people were supposedly boycotting TinkyWinky for being gay.

Although, I will say that I don't think it's a very good ad. I can't figure out what the ad has to do with the product. Are either of them even wearing the sweater?

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"Potter75" wrote:

I don't see putting on nail polish as imaginative play. Where is the imagination in it? I also don't think that kids who don't like to do cross gender things will be "not great parents". Many people are wonderful at playing with kids in different ways.

To the bolded, I don't know. It would be uncomfortable for me if my husband put on my lingerie. Maybe I'm just weird, as clearly that would not bother you, because it is just imaginative play! It would be weird in our society//culture/circle of friends for my son to go out in public with nailpolish and pigtails, or a garter belt. I'm rather glad about that, honestly. I am just fine with my son loving sports and common "boy things", it makes all of this very easy for us, honestly. Makes it easy for him, too.

To the bolded, to be clear that's not what I was saying at all. I was speaking specifically from what I see with my son. People can be great parents in many different ways. It absolutely can be used in imaginative play if they were looking to play a specific role. No different than my daughter dressing up and looking like a dragon and acting as a dragon does. Just last night, I saw a guy wearing two pigtails on a cooking show. Not a big deal. I think it's great that some who feel it's important to express themselves openly are bold enough to face society to diffuse the shock and disdain.

It really rubs me the wrong way when hearing someone can't look or act a certain way because their gender. In the whole scheme of things, I would rather see kids in pigtails (both genders) and happy than them looking depressed in both dress and expression which is by far what I see more of.

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I'd rather not see any adult in pigtails, but that's a whole 'nother debate.

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"Beertje" wrote:

To the bolded, to be clear that's not what I was saying at all. I was speaking specifically from what I see with my son. People can be great parents in many different ways. It absolutely can be used in imaginative play if they were looking to play a specific role. No different than my daughter dressing up and looking like a dragon and acting as a dragon does. Just last night, I saw a guy wearing two pigtails on a cooking show. Not a big deal. I think it's great that some who feel it's important to express themselves openly are bold enough to face society to diffuse the shock and disdain.

It really rubs me the wrong way when hearing someone can't look or act a certain way because their gender. In the whole scheme of things, I would rather see kids in pigtails (both genders) and happy than them looking depressed in both dress and expression which is by far what I see more of.

I just don't think that the bolded are the two options in life. Many boys will happily and gleefully live life with nary a pigtail. My son is only four, but thusfar he has been pretty okay with me responding to certain things (like nail polish) with an easy, oh, boys don't usually wear nail polish. No big stigma, no big shame, just stating a simple fact. The vast majority of men do NOT wear nail polish, and I really don't see them being all depressed or oppressed in both dress and expression.

I'm okay with not indulging my children's every whim as it pertains to lots of things (food, tv, discipline etc) I don't see gender related whims as some sacred "be open minded let the kids do whatever they want or else they will be glum and depressed and gender oppressed" I don't think that it works like that for most of the world, is all.

PS, I also think that pigtails are horrible horrid on anyone over the age of like 15, man or woman alike.

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I don't think it's "gender confusion" or "gay agenda" or anything other than a little boy having a fun time with his mom. I don't paint my nails, so that wouldn't be a bonding experience in my house, but if my young child did want their nails painted I'd probably encourage doing their toes rather than their fingers just because fingers get put in their mouths so much. Anyway, Tiven loves coloring her nails with markers and now Weston wants her to color his, too. It's so sweet watching them both sitting at her little table, he picks a marker out of her bin & she carefully applies it to his nails, he sits so perfectly still & just watches her so intently. I'd love to get it on video but that would probably ruin it forever. Oh well... Yeah, I have nothing against pink nail polish for either gender of kid.

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"Potter75" wrote:

My son is only four, but thusfar he has been pretty okay with me responding to certain things (like nail polish) with an easy, oh, boys don't usually wear nail polish. No big stigma, no big shame, just stating a simple fact. The vast majority of men do NOT wear nail polish, and I really don't see them being all depressed or oppressed in both dress and expression.

I'm curious what you would do if you son didn't accept your explanation that boys don't do that, and said, "I really want to wear pink nail polish today." Would you let him? What if he wanted to wear a skirt or tutu? Why should girls get all the fun stuff? I know men who do wear nail polish on a regular basis, they aren't gay or transvestite, it's just their personal style. And there's a man in my neighborhood who wears a ballerina tutu most days, he's not gay or transvestite, either, but he is a bit kooky. Nice guy, Vietnam vet which might explain some of the kookiness, though I have a feeling he'd probably still wear a tutu regardless.

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"Spacers" wrote:

I'm curious what you would do if you son didn't accept your explanation that boys don't do that, and said, "I really want to wear pink nail polish today." Would you let him? What if he wanted to wear a skirt or tutu? Why should girls get all the fun stuff? I know men who do wear nail polish on a regular basis, they aren't gay or transvestite, it's just their personal style. There's a man in my neighborhood who wears a ballerina tutu most days, he's not gay or transvestite, either, but he is a bit kooky.

Not all boys consider tutu's "fun stuff". That sounds like you injecting your personal preference towards girl clothes being "fun'. My kid considers his batman cape pretty fun, too, or his soccer goals, or his lightsaber.....none of which he wears in public either.

ETA: that is great that you know so many men who wear nailpolish or tutus. I don't. It is very much not normal here, and I'm totally okay with that. I in no way assume that people who do are gay or transvestite, but I do assume that they are weird. I feel the same way about those horrible ear spacer things or tongue splitting. Has nothing to do with sexuality, all to do with needing weird or negative attention, IMO. Not my bag of fun, is all.

ETA, what would I do? repeat that most boys don't wear nail polish and move along, just like I would do if he said "Mom, I REALLY Want ice cream for lunch today!". I would say "We don't eat ice cream for lunch" and move right along to the next thing. With three little kids, the next thing is pretty much easy to move along to Smile We don't spend a lot of time over analyzing every whim.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Not all boys consider tutu's "fun stuff". That sounds like you injecting your personal preference towards girl clothes being "fun'. My kid considers his batman cape pretty fun, too, or his soccer goals, or his lightsaber.....none of which he wears in public either.

I'm not making any projections. If a kid wants something because he thinks it's fun, why say no just because you think he's the wrong gender for it? Tiven has a Superman cape & a soccer goal, too, and also a basketball hoop & a top hat, and it never occured to me to not let her have those because they are "boy things." And if Weston wants a tutu, he'll get it. We value imaginative play & creative expression, we don't limit those things.

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[QUOTE=Spacers]I'm not making any projections. If a kid wants something because he thinks it's fun, why say no just because you think he's the wrong gender for it? Tiven has a Superman cape & a soccer goal, too, and also a basketball hoop & a top hat, and it never occured to me to not let her have those because they are "boy things." And if Weston wants a tutu, he'll get it. We value imaginative play & creative expression, we don't limit those things.[/QUOTE]

Oh, so your SON was saying that girls "get all the fun stuff", not you? I was confused, I guess.

Good for Weston! I'm sure he will look darling in it. My son won't be wearing one (if he wanted to, which he doesn't) and he looks darling in his traditional old boy clothes, too.

Other families can value "imaginative play and creative expression" without letting their children dictate how their household runs or making parents embrace every whim of childhood. Trust me.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Not all boys consider tutu's "fun stuff". That sounds like you injecting your personal preference towards girl clothes being "fun'. My kid considers his batman cape pretty fun, too, or his soccer goals, or his lightsaber.....none of which he wears in public either.

ETA: that is great that you know so many men who wear nailpolish or tutus. I don't. It is very much not normal here, and I'm totally okay with that. I in no way assume that people who do are gay or transvestite, but I do assume that they are weird. I feel the same way about those horrible ear spacer things or tongue splitting. Has nothing to do with sexuality, all to do with needing weird or negative attention, IMO. Not my bag of fun, is all.

ETA, what would I do? repeat that most boys don't wear nail polish and move along, just like I would do if he said "Mom, I REALLY Want ice cream for lunch today!". I would say "We don't eat ice cream for lunch" and move right along to the next thing. With three little kids, the next thing is pretty much easy to move along to Smile We don't spend a lot of time over analyzing every whim.

So if I understand you correctly, you don't explain beyond the statement that boy's don't do that. How would he react when he does see an adult or another kid wearing something they were told isn't done by that gender? Would he question you since you're the one saying something the opposite of what they're witnessing? Why is a male weird for wearing nail polish, but completely acceptable for a female to where it? Does the nail polish magically change depending on the gender?

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Oh, so your SON was saying that girls "get all the fun stuff", not you? I was confused, I guess.

Good for Weston! I'm sure he will look darling in it. My son won't be wearing one (if he wanted to, which he doesn't) and he looks darling in his traditional old boy clothes, too.

Other families can value "imaginative play and creative expression" without letting their children dictate how their household runs or making parents embrace every whim of childhood. Trust me.

So if he were playing at a guest's house and he put on a tutu because everyone was playing dress up, would you make him take it off? My four y/o nephew loves twirling in my dd's tutus as he enjoys watching it fly as he spins. Would you put a halt to that and force him to take something as innocent like that off?

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"Beertje" wrote:

So if I understand you correctly, you don't explain beyond the statement that boy's don't do that. How would he react when he does see an adult or another kid wearing something they were told isn't done by that gender? Would he question you since you're the one saying something the opposite of what they're witnessing? Why is a male weird for wearing nail polish, but completely acceptable for a female to where it? Does the nail polish magically change depending on the gender?

Pretty sure I specifically said "Most" boys don't do that every.single.time. BEcause it is true, most men/boys don't wear nail polish. My child is smart enough to grasp the meaning of the word "most" and smart enough to discern how it is different from the word "all".

Do you really think that it magically changes or are you being snarky because you disagree with me? I don't really believe in magic, especially not magic nail polish.

Why would a woman with a beard be weird? Why is a man with a split tongue, or a face tattoo weird? Why is a grown man choosing to wear a tutu weird?

I'm just not into being all "you rule little dude lets get some sparkle up in that hair and rock out that nail polish, hey how bout some legwarmers and a mohawk too!". I'm in suburbia with typical suburbia kids. And that is a-ok with me. Traditional ain't all bad for some of us Smile

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"Potter75" wrote:

ETA, what would I do? repeat that most boys don't wear nail polish and move along, just like I would do if he said "Mom, I REALLY Want ice cream for lunch today!". I would say "We don't eat ice cream for lunch" and move right along to the next thing. With three little kids, the next thing is pretty much easy to move along to Smile We don't spend a lot of time over analyzing every whim.

But what's the harm in letting him have pink nails or a tutu or even ice cream in the middle of the day once in a while? What's the problem with letting a kid have some fun? Do you say no when your girls want a cape & sword?

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"Spacers" wrote:

But what's the harm in letting him have pink nails or a tutu or even ice cream in the middle of the day once in a while? What's the problem with letting a kid have some fun? Do you say no when your girls want a cape & sword?

Are you home with your children all day long? Because the idea of letting my barely 3 and barely 4 and 10 month old have ice cream for lunch (which is right before nap) would be the suck, for ALL of us. So, that is the harm. They need their nap, I need their nap (which is now, and lovely) and we have some rules in our house. You are free to have different rules.

My kids just seem to have different fun than your kids! I don't judge you for what kind of fun you want to have with your kids, you are free to judge me, however Smile

If your child's only idea of fun is pink nail polish, by all means don't deprive him of it! My kid has other ideas of fun, is all. This just isn't a big issue in our home, so perhaps I don't give it quite as much weight as you guys do. My kids (remarkably) don't seem overly oppressed, depressed, lacking in fun, or whatever Smile

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"Beertje" wrote:

So if he were playing at a guest's house and he put on a tutu because everyone was playing dress up, would you make him take it off? My four y/o nephew loves twirling in my dd's tutus as he enjoys watching it fly as he spins. Would you put a halt to that and force him to take something as innocent like that off?

I've already stated that dress up is something that our kids do. Batman, policeman, fairy, princess etc all have a place in our house.

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I have 2 boys who have a girl cousin. They HATE her toys, dress up, and all things girly. I have never told them they cant or shouldnt use these things or that it is wrong. In fact, i gave my son a cabbage patch doll when he was one (a boy one) because he wanted it at the store.

It doesnt matter what we teach them at home. Media, school, and social situations are going to have some pull in what they think and feel.

My son has asked about nail polish, not because he wanted it but because it didnt understand the point of it. had he asked to wear it I might paint one nail or something, but I wouldn't like him sporting 10 hot pink nails to school, I would assume he would be made fun of and I wouldn't want him feeling bad over such a rediculous thing.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Oh, so your SON was saying that girls "get all the fun stuff", not you? I was confused, I guess.

Good for Weston! I'm sure he will look darling in it. My son won't be wearing one (if he wanted to, which he doesn't) and he looks darling in his traditional old boy clothes, too.

Other families can value "imaginative play and creative expression" without letting their children dictate how their household runs or making parents embrace every whim of childhood. Trust me.

No, my son doesn't have the language skills to say that yet, but I've heard that phrase many times from my nephew whose mother has the same POV as you. (Perhaps you are my sister? :eek: )

My children don't dictate how our household runs -- not at all! -- but they do have a certain amount of free will in choosing their clothing and their play items. I can't understand how you can say that you value imaginative play & creative expression when your last three posts have clearly stated that you would & do limit what your children wear & play with based on your gender perceptions & sense of weirdness.

And I actually love embracing the whims of childhood! I love that kids can wear fairy wings or a superman cape to the grocery store & it's adorable. Yes, it's weird when an adult does it, but not creepy weird like a face tattoo, it's more fun weird, inner child being released weird. I love eating ice cream before lunch once in a while. I love walking barefoot in the rain; I'd forgotten about that until Tiven did it! I've been known to pull off the freeway to check out a park we saw a glimpse of. I'm a grownup most of the time, but I'm really enjoying seeing the world through a child's eyes again. I wonder if I can find a tutu in my size? Blum 3

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"Potter75" wrote:

I've already stated that dress up is something that our kids do. Batman, policeman, fairy, princess etc all have a place in our house.

So wouldn't putting nail polish on considered part of dress up? Why is putting a costume on acceptable, but nail polish not? What if he got upset watching you put nail polish on your dd while refusing to allow him the same opportunity? I'm a bit confused by this since the statements I've understood from you is that you're all for gender equality, but this seems to add stipulations to that statement.

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"Beertje" wrote:

So wouldn't putting nail polish on considered part of dress up? Why is putting a costume on acceptable, but nail polish not? What if he got upset watching you put nail polish on your dd while refusing to allow him the same opportunity? I'm a bit confused by this since the statements I've understood from you is that you're all for gender equality, but this seems to add stipulations to that statement.

if your daughter wanted to shave her head because her boy friends had shaved heads, would you let her?

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"Potter75" wrote:

Pretty sure I specifically said "Most" boys don't do that every.single.time. BEcause it is true, most men/boys don't wear nail polish. My child is smart enough to grasp the meaning of the word "most" and smart enough to discern how it is different from the word "all".

Do you really think that it magically changes or are you being snarky because you disagree with me? I don't really believe in magic, especially not magic nail polish.

Why would a woman with a beard be weird? Why is a man with a split tongue, or a face tattoo weird? Why is a grown man choosing to wear a tutu weird?

I'm just not into being all "you rule little dude lets get some sparkle up in that hair and rock out that nail polish, hey how bout some legwarmers and a mohawk too!". I'm in suburbia with typical suburbia kids. And that is a-ok with me. Traditional ain't all bad for some of us Smile

You really didn't answer my question... why do you label a man to be weird for wearing nail polish yet acceptable for women? While I don't, some people may think it magically changes because of the gender. The polish in itself doesn't change, it's a perception or stereotype that makes it change. You assume that everyone thinks a woman is weird if they have a beard, or only men with a split tongue to be weird... What if they were born that way or their hormones changed that caused hair growth? I don't assume they as people are weird because of something in particular I see.

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"Kate83" wrote:

if your daughter wanted to shave her head because her boy friends had shaved heads, would you let her?

If it's important to her and not because someone else told her to, yeah. It's only hair. It grows back if she were to change her mind.

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"Beertje" wrote:

So wouldn't putting nail polish on considered part of dress up? Why is putting a costume on acceptable, but nail polish not? What if he got upset watching you put nail polish on your dd while refusing to allow him the same opportunity? I'm a bit confused by this since the statements I've understood from you is that you're all for gender equality, but this seems to add stipulations to that statement.

Spacers, trust me, I am not your sister. I have never gotten "out of touch" with my inner child, but I am glad that the two of you are reconnecting! You are not reading my posts, so I refuse to debate further with you. How does me saying that my boy has no interest in prancing around in a tutu at baseball practice mean that I "limit their clothing choices"? If he has never asked for it, how on earth am I limiting it? I simply don't consider pink nail polish a "clothing option" for my son, so that is just silly to say that I am limiting or stifling him by not painting his nails. You are reading things that aren't there. I have stated several times that I believe that different families can do things differently, YOU are the one being limiting by telling me how to run my family or which whims I should indulge my children in. Again, you clearly are not home with your kids all day or you would not be lecturing me on the "fun" of ice cream for lunch. Not in my house, it simply isn't fun. So why think that you know other "fun" tutu activities that we should be doing?

Beertje, What on earth does pink nail polish have to do with gender equality? Equal does not mean "the same" .... does it? I think that men and women are equal, but very very different! I love those differences, they are what allow my marriage and my friendships to be very different things. I love being a woman. I don't wear nail polish.......believe me, I won't be putting it on my son Smile

Beertje, why would my daughter putting on a cone bra in public be inappropriate? Oh, because it would be socially aberrant? Well, that is how I feel about putting paint on my sons fingernails. You may see nail polish as some big "opportunity"....but I don't. It really just isn't some big part of our life as a family like it must be to some of you. We see "opportunities" as participating in things like hiking or going to the zoo or playing on the beach.

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"Beertje" wrote:

You really didn't answer my question... why do you label a man to be weird for wearing nail polish yet acceptable for women? While I don't, some people may think it magically changes because of the gender. The polish in itself doesn't change, it's a perception or stereotype that makes it change. You assume that everyone thinks a woman is weird if they have a beard, or only men with a split tongue to be weird... What if they were born that way or their hormones changed that caused hair growth? I don't assume they as people are weird because of something in particular I see.

That is fine. I do. I also assume that people with facial tattoos are weird. And people who wear edible underwear, or who have super super long curled up fingernails. And I think that I mentioned the ear spacer things, but they bear mentioning again. And lots of other things! I don't mind admitting my biases. Obviously I am also talking about choices, not "hormonal things". If a boy was born with pink shellacked nails I would feel terribly for him, not think that he was weird. I'm talking about intentional choices, not birth defects, I'm sure you know that, right?

Why would I label him weird? Because I think that it is weird! I don't know how to explain more clearly. Were I in a business meeting in my old life, and a man in a suit came in with red painted fingernails, it would be super, duper weird. I can't come up with a better word than that! Of COURSE it is about the perception or the stereotype!

You are labeling me weird for feeling this way, aren't you? No sweat! If we all felt the same we would all dress the same, and that would be boring. I'm glad for weird people, they give us something to laugh about in public!

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"Potter75" wrote:

That is fine. I do. I also assume that people with facial tattoos are weird. And people who wear edible underwear, or who have super super long curled up fingernails. And I think that I mentioned the ear spacer things, but they bear mentioning again. And lots of other things! I don't mind admitting my biases. Obviously I am also talking about choices, not "hormonal things". If a boy was born with pink shellacked nails I would feel terribly for him, not think that he was weird. I'm talking about intentional choices, not birth defects, I'm sure you know that, right?

Why would I label him weird? Because I think that it is weird! I don't know how to explain more clearly. Were I in a business meeting in my old life, and a man in a suit came in with red painted fingernails, it would be super, duper weird. I can't come up with a better word than that! Of COURSE it is about the perception or the stereotype!

You are labeling me weird for feeling this way, aren't you? No sweat! If we all felt the same we would all dress the same, and that would be boring. I'm glad for weird people, they give us something to laugh about in public!

I mostly agree with what you're saying. I find it weird for teenage boys that wear eyeliner and nail polish. I wouldn't let me little boy wear those things in public, nor would I allow them to wear dresses or tutu's. Playing dress up at home is one thing, it does inspire creativity and learning. That's awesome!

Heck, my daughter is 2 and still hasn't had her nails painted. I really doubt she's missing out on much!

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"Potter75" wrote:

That is fine. I do. I also assume that people with facial tattoos are weird. And people who wear edible underwear, or who have super super long curled up fingernails. And I think that I mentioned the ear spacer things, but they bear mentioning again. And lots of other things! I don't mind admitting my biases. Obviously I am also talking about choices, not "hormonal things". If a boy was born with pink shellacked nails I would feel terribly for him, not think that he was weird. I'm talking about intentional choices, not birth defects, I'm sure you know that, right?

Why would I label him weird? Because I think that it is weird! I don't know how to explain more clearly. Were I in a business meeting in my old life, and a man in a suit came in with red painted fingernails, it would be super, duper weird. I can't come up with a better word than that! Of COURSE it is about the perception or the stereotype!

You are labeling me weird for feeling this way, aren't you? No sweat! If we all felt the same we would all dress the same, and that would be boring. I'm glad for weird people, they give us something to laugh about in public!

Actually, I don't label you weird. I have an entirely different perspective of you after enlightening me of this. I honestly thought you would not have these stereotypes and am sincerely blown away by the bolded. How would you know just by sight if some of the people you see are due to birth defects or hormonal changes instead of intentional choices? The bearded lady that you included in your example, you see that as an intentional choice? She could have a few options, shave, take medication to try to offset the growth, or just let it be. Regardless, she still has hair growth, most likely not by choice. To me, gender equality includes equal opportunities without judgment of their choice to do something that is traditionally seen by the opposite gender. This is not limited to employment. I'd be interested in how you would handle a situation if your son (at an adult age) came home with ear spacers. Would you publicly make fun of him because you think he's weird?

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Have you really ever seen someone born with a neck tattoo birth defect? C'mon Beertje, I'm being lighthearted about the weird thing. If not taking myself too seriously entirely changes your impression of me, you didn't have a very clear impression to begin with Smile

I'm able to admit my faults and biases. I absolutely think some choices are super weird. I'd venture a guess that most people do.

Why would I publicly make fun of him? I have a relationship with him, so I would share my thoughts with him personally.

If my kid came home with spacers I would absolutely tell him that they were grotesque, and smelly, and ugly, and that I found them to be self mutilation. That said, it is his body and if he is of age to legally choose them, I won't try to stop him, other than sharing my opinion.

He can also pay for his reconstructive surgery some day to fix his dumbo ear flaps.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Have you really ever seen someone born with a neck tattoo birth defect? C'mon Beertje, I'm being lighthearted about the weird thing. If not taking myself too seriously entirely changes your impression of me, you didn't have a very clear impression to begin with Smile

I'm able to admit my faults and biases. I absolutely think some choices are super weird. I'd venture a guess that most people do.

Why would I publicly make fun of him? I have a relationship with him, so I would share my thoughts with him personally.

If my kid came home with spacers I would absolutely tell him that they were grotesque, and smelly, and ugly, and that I found them to be self mutilation. That said, it is his body and if he is of age to legally choose them, I won't try to stop him, other than sharing my opinion.

He can also pay for his reconstructive surgery some day to fix his dumbo ear flaps.

I guess I missed the part where you were being lighthearted about the weird thing? I totally can relate with thinking some choices may be weird and the fact that everyone has biases and faults. I was only pointing out things that may not be obvious choices that seemed to be assumed as such. I still disagree with publicly laughing at anyone based on what they look like, even if you don't know them.

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"Beertje" wrote:

I guess I missed the part where you were being lighthearted about the weird thing? I totally can relate with thinking some choices may be weird and the fact that everyone has biases and faults. I was only pointing out things that may not be obvious choices that seemed to be assumed as such. I still disagree with publicly laughing at anyone based on what they look like, even if you don't know them.

Nail polish is nothing but a choice. As are the other things I mentioned, barring the beard, but I admit that I was picturing a woman wearing a beard wig thing. I would think that a man shaving his entire body (legs, pits, all of it) was weird too, but would never say that someone with alopecia was weird! I was hurrying, I'm referring to choices. Of course I am not talking about things beyond our control. People control ear spacers, and facial tattoos, and whatnot. You are grasping if you are trying to make this an insensitivity thing. I'm not talking about being insensitive. I'm talking about being a strong enough individual and parent that I don't need to cater to every whim my child may ever have. I'm cool with saying no to certain things at certain ages. I have found plenty of ways to intersect imaginative fun while adhering to certain societal norms in the meantime. I admit that I would NOT shave my young daughters heads. I don't fault other parents for doing so, we just do differently.

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"Beertje" wrote:

I guess I missed the part where you were being lighthearted about the weird thing? I totally can relate with thinking some choices may be weird and the fact that everyone has biases and faults. I was only pointing out things that may not be obvious choices that seemed to be assumed as such. I still disagree with publicly laughing at anyone based on what they look like, even if you don't know them.

Also, I don't think that thinking things are weird is a fault. Determining what we don't like is crucial to determining what we DO like, who we are, how we dress, how we carry ourselves who we relate to etc.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Also, I don't think that thinking things are weird is a fault. Determining what we don't like is crucial to determining what we DO like, who we are, how we dress, how we carry ourselves who we relate to etc.

Agreed. Smile