Justified Shooting?

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AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6560
Justified Shooting?

America Celebrates a Little Girl Being Orphaned as She Watches Mother’s Execution by D.C. Cops |

I just saw this article on FB and I was curious how it would play out here. Was the shooting justified? Was there something else that could be done?

For reference - Source: Schizophrenia meds found at home of woman in Capitol shooting - CNN.com

Miriam Carey, Capitol Suspect, Suffered Post-Partum Depression - ABC News

(If nothing else I can't believe with everything that is going on this is ABCnew's top story)

KimPossible's picture
Joined: 05/24/06
Posts: 3311

I apologize for not reading the entire article, but it was long.

I dont know, i think i would have to be there to really know. While she did not have a gun, she was armed with a vehicle, which i think can very easily be a deadly weapon if you are driving erratically and not cooperating with law enforcement.

I could see there being grounds to have to stop her. I will admit my first gut reaction when i heard she was unarmed was "why did they shoot her?" But if i really think about it,d riving around those busy city streets....i could easily see how she could be a danger to those in the vicinity until they stopped her.

Its a very sad story, given the fact that she was mentally ill and had her baby with her, but I just can't say for certain that this was unjustified.

GloriaInTX's picture
Joined: 07/29/08
Posts: 4114

I think we need more vehicle control. Maybe we should start doing a background check on everyone buying a car.

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6560

Like Kim, I am not sure. My first response would be something cheesy from TV like shooting out the tires. That said, the police officers did not know she had a baby and they did not know she was unarmed.

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 4100

Absolutely justified. She tried to run a barricade -- not just a regular closed street kind of barricade, but at the White House! -- and, when she was prevented from that, began using her car as a weapon against the officers trying to stop her. She then proceeded to the Capitol Building where she again tried to run a barricade and again used her car as a weapon against the officers trying to stop her. And that baby isn't "orphaned," because she still has a father.

And I don't believe shooting tires out is usually a reasonable option outside of the movies; I think I've heard that the bullet is more likely to ricochet off and hit someone else than to damage the tire. That's why most police agencies now use spike sticks to stop an out-of-control car.

Alissa_Sal's picture
Joined: 06/29/06
Posts: 6427

"GloriaInTX" wrote:

I think we need more vehicle control. Maybe we should start doing a background check on everyone buying a car.

At least we make people register their cars. Blum 3

KimPossible's picture
Joined: 05/24/06
Posts: 3311

I heard that she like...ran into it as she was freaking out and trying to leave. Not like she ran into it to try to break it down. Not sure though.

And I'm not saying this to justify or not justify the shooting. I just feel like its important for clarity.

ETA:I just read another one that reports her actions looked deliberate. Who knows LOL

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 4100

The cops had no way of knowing if she ran into them because she was crazy or because she was trying to kill the President. They have to act on what they see, not on what they can't know in the moment. That said, we really need, as a society, to start getting people the mental health care they need. This kind of **** is just going to keep happening as long as people aren't getting help. And I'm really wondering, if she was as delusional as her family is now claiming she was, then WTF didn't they take away her car keys? Why was she still caring for her baby? It should be common sense by now that you don't leave crazy people with things like knives & guns & cars that they can hurt other people with, and you don't leave them with little kids they might hurt or who might witness something horrible.

KimPossible's picture
Joined: 05/24/06
Posts: 3311

One of the articles said that security approached her and she did an erratic three point turn and hit an officer and the started to drive away.

While i do not think this entire case is necessarily unjustified, i disagree that just because she hit the barricade she should have been shot at.

They didn't even start shooting her at that point to my understanding. They also later had her cornered and did not shoot her and it was only after she started fleeing that it led to an eventual shooting.

Anyway, i disagree that ramming the barricade means that someone can be shot and killed. Especially if the individual hits the barricade and then drives away.

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 4100

She didn't just ram a barricade. She rammed a barricade, at the White House, didn't stop when ordered to, hit an officer while turning her car around, drove to the Capital Building while being pursued by officers, didn't stop, rammed the barricade there, refused to exit the car, and refused to put her hands where they could be seen, and then began trying to get away again. I do think that combination of events justifies being shot. If she had gotten away, who knows what she might have done with her car or to her daughter, she might have ended up killing a bunch of pedestrians if she'd driven up on a sidewalk like that guy in L.A. recently.

KimPossible's picture
Joined: 05/24/06
Posts: 3311

"Spacers" wrote:

She didn't just ram a barricade. She rammed a barricade, at the White House, didn't stop when ordered to, hit an officer while turning her car around, drove to the Capital Building while being pursued by officers, didn't stop, rammed the barricade there, refused to exit the car, and refused to put her hands where they could be seen, and then began trying to get away again. I do think that combination of events justifies being shot. If she had gotten away, who knows what she might have done with her car or to her daughter, she might have ended up killing a bunch of pedestrians if she'd driven up on a sidewalk like that guy in L.A. recently.

I said pretty clearly that i was not saying this shotting was unjustified. What i'm disputing is your statement that just because someone hits the white house barricade that justifies shooting and killing them. Your posts made it sound like that...and i disagree with you on just that point.

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 4100

"KimPossible" wrote:

I said pretty clearly that i was not saying this shotting was unjustified. What i'm disputing is your statement that just because someone hits the white house barricade that justifies shooting and killing them. Your posts made it sound like that...and i disagree with you on just that point.

I never said that.

KimPossible's picture
Joined: 05/24/06
Posts: 3311

"Spacers" wrote:

I never said that.

Well i had responded after you said this:

Absolutely justified. She tried to run a barricade -- not just a regular closed street kind of barricade, but at the White House! --

by stating that a report I heard made it sound unintentional, doing an erratic 3 point turn (plus she drove away after she ran into the barricade)

to which you responded:

The cops had no way of knowing if she ran into them because she was crazy or because she was trying to kill the President. They have to act on what they see, not on what they can't know in the moment.

So to me thats what it sounded like.

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 4100

You didn't copy the rest of that sentence, or the rest of my complete thought, which I think makes it very clear that I'm talking about her actions in total, and not just that she ran into one barricade.

"She tried to run a barricade -- not just a regular closed street kind of barricade, but at the White House! -- and, when she was prevented from that, began using her car as a weapon against the officers trying to stop her. She then proceeded to the Capitol Building where she again tried to run a barricade and again used her car as a weapon against the officers trying to stop her."

KimPossible's picture
Joined: 05/24/06
Posts: 3311

"Spacers" wrote:

You didn't copy the rest of that sentence, or the rest of my complete thought, which I think makes it very clear that I'm talking about her actions in total, and not just that she ran into one barricade.

"She tried to run a barricade -- not just a regular closed street kind of barricade, but at the White House! -- and, when she was prevented from that, began using her car as a weapon against the officers trying to stop her. She then proceeded to the Capitol Building where she again tried to run a barricade and again used her car as a weapon against the officers trying to stop her."

It was you response to my post specifically that made me feel like you were saying that alone was enough, not the first post. If you don't feel that way then we don't have a disagreement.