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Thread: Kids - Ours or the communities?

  1. #11
    Posting Addict Spacers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddieflounder101 View Post
    I know what she's saying, and it's being twisted and taken out of context. She's trying to say that when we view children as the future of society, we will invest in their education and their future. She's not saying parents shouldn't be responsible for their own children, she's saying we need to think bigger than ME and MINE and think about all the kids who need an education, for the future of us all.

    And I agree with that.
    I totally & wholeheartedly agree with this. I look at some of my neighbors who spend $30K a year on private school because the local public school doesn't offer art, music, or more than an hour a week of PE. Sure, their kids are benefitting from that investment, but just imagine what $30K could do for all of the 250 kids at our neighborhood school. That's weekly art classes for every student! The private school requires a time investment from each family of 20 hours per semester. Imagine what the local public school could do with a few parents willing to make that commitment! Our kids need safe places to study & play after school. Hiring a sitter satisfies that for you & your kids, but what about pooling resources together and supporting a neighborhood space for *all* of the kids? Things like that can make a huge difference for another child and don't cost more than what these people are already willing to pay to make a difference for their own kids. I can't afford to donate money to our school, but DH & I donate a lot of our time because it benefits all the kids, not just our own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    MSNBC Host Melissa Harris-Perry ? All Your Kids Belong To Us - YouTube

    Do you believe that your children are your personal responsibility, the communities?

    I agree with Laurie. This woman is not literally saying that our individual children are the communities responsibility to raise, LOL. Of course our children are first and foremost my husband and my responsibility. And of course having a healthy and strong community helps foster that. Of course having sound schools, (for us) our immediate family simply miles away, and a huge community of friends helps us raise our children more easily. Of course having safe playgrounds, arboretums, zoos, aquariums, safe clean beaches, mountains and ski areas, clean pools or clubs for our children to enjoy and make friends at.....all of that makes our job as parents WAY easier. Of course a strong economy where families have choices ~ where parents can have a person at home with their children if that is what they want or they can afford a nanny or they can afford to work reasonable hours, or whatever it is that they want to do to make the family life that they want. An economy where parents can buy their children the things that they need, where they can afford to feed their family healthy foods, where they can afford to supplement their kids educations with educational camps or sports camps or language or arts or music or theatre camps etc.....ALL of that is about community.

    Bonita I'm not sure how homeschooling or a kids penis is related to the debate question.

    I would say that I think that having well educated children is essential to having a good community. I would never want homeschooling to be illegal, but I do think that having parents who are not well equipped to homeschool, ie are not well educated or are not good teachers, is doing their children, and subsequently our entire community/nation a disservice. I would say that people who hit their children are more likely to raise violent children, which does not benefit our community. Vaccinations help save lives, and herd immunity is real, so yes, people who choose to not vaccinate their children do weaken our community and needlessly reintroduce illness to the old and infirm and lead to pockets of disease, needlessly. Of course that is not good for the community as a whole, right?
    Last edited by Potter75; 04-08-2013 at 07:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    I think this is a big fundamental difference when it comes to some of the opinions on this board. I believe (with the exception of abuse and neglect) that a parent is the ultimate authority when it comes to their children. They should make all decisions in regards to where to send their child to school, whether or not to vaccinate, how to discipline (again, with the exception of abuse that has been investigated by CPS), and other parenting choices.
    Of course, by the strictest sense of the word 'authority'. However, if we also want to talk about being an 'authority' on a particular subject, I am definitely not an authority on everything when it comes to parenting. I'm a good parent, but I don't pretend to know more or be wiser than someone else on a topic related to parenting. Heck, I welcome smart, fair, unbiased people to teach my kids stuff, even without my permission. It's not simply about a child learning something from someone else, it's also about a child understanding that their parents' opinions aren't the ONLY opinions out there, and for the child to then formulate their own opinion. I don't expect my kids to have identical opinions and ideals and stuff as I do.
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    "We have this notion that you kid is yours and totally your responsibility. We have not had a very collective notion of these are our children. We have to break through this notion that kids belong to their parents, and realize kids belong to whole communities..."

    After reading all of your commits I went back and rewatched the video and tried to write out the words as well as I could. I first saw the link on FB with outrage surrounding it and have seen it several times since. I did not express what I was trying to say very well so I will try again. The idea that children belong to the "Community" and not the parents is a communist idea. I am very against this. Kids do belong to their parents. And should make all decisions regarding their children. While the link in the OP was talking about education, the principle applies to parenting overall and all aspects of it. Either parents are in control of their children or they are not.
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    Bonita. What she's trying to say is that we should all invest in children, in the future generation, not that we should take away parental rights and choices. She's talking about public education. And she's saying that we are responsible for all children, not just our own. She never suggested any of those things the "outrage" is about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    "We have this notion that you kid is yours and totally your responsibility. We have not had a very collective notion of these are our children. We have to break through this notion that kids belong to their parents, and realize kids belong to whole communities..."

    After reading all of your commits I went back and rewatched the video and tried to write out the words as well as I could. I first saw the link on FB with outrage surrounding it and have seen it several times since. I did not express what I was trying to say very well so I will try again. The idea that children belong to the "Community" and not the parents is a communist idea. I am very against this. Kids do belong to their parents. And should make all decisions regarding their children. While the link in the OP was talking about education, the principle applies to parenting overall and all aspects of it. Either parents are in control of their children or they are not.
    I think I understand what you are saying. And while I agree that I and my hubby are the primary source of everything for our kids, I disagree that it is 100% like that. Nor would I like it to be.

    Two thoughts:

    First, it's akin to the argument that a person who chooses to never have children, should not give one whit of concern to maternity/family leave. That people who are parents can just suck it on this social issue. I find fault in it because, that single childless individual was at some point a child themselves. Super-duper short-sighted. Somebody has to make the people and take care of them. It's part of how society works.

    And second, in a society, be it capitalist or otherwise we have all kinds of agreements. Such as; How to be polite, Cleanliness standards, Acceptable business practices, simple exchanges and agreements about boundaries. I think that what is acceptable for a sense of public education falls under those agreements as well. It's how we insure that the next generation meets at least the minimum of the other 'agreements' I mentioned, plus many more.

    I read this debate earlier and was kind of surprised by your assertion that you, "think this is a big fundamental difference when it comes to some of the opinions on this board."

    I don't think it is that at all. I think that there are some real and serious fault lines where individuals are so sanctimoniously sure of the righteousness of their positions (both on the left and right) that they end up in the snarky extremes and just gross each other out for fun.
    Last edited by bunnyfufu; 04-08-2013 at 11:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddieflounder101 View Post
    Bonita. What she's trying to say is that we should all invest in children, in the future generation, not that we should take away parental rights and choices. She's talking about public education. And she's saying that we are responsible for all children, not just our own. She never suggested any of those things the "outrage" is about.
    I do not know anything about the woman in the video. The only thing I have to go on is the clip I watched. It is very possible that she did not mean it how it came across to many. I know it is easy to be misunderstood.
    Quote Originally Posted by bunnyfufu View Post
    I think I understand what you are saying. And while I agree that I and my hubby are the primary source of everything for our kids, I disagree that it is 100% like that. Nor would I like it to be.

    Two thoughts:

    First, it's akin to the argument that a person who chooses to never have children, should not give one whit of concern to maternity/family leave. That people who are parents can just suck it on this social issue. I find fault in it because, that single childless individual was at some point a child themselves. Super-duper short-sighted. Somebody has to make the people and take care of them. It's part of how society works.

    And second, in a society, be it capitalist or otherwise we have all kinds of agreements. Such as; How to be polite, Cleanliness standards, Acceptable business practices, simple exchanges and agreements about boundaries. I think that what is acceptable for a sense of public education falls under those agreements as well. It's how we insure that the next generation meets at least the minimum of the other 'agreements' I mentioned, plus many more.

    I read this debate earlier and was kind of surprised by your assertion that you, "think this is a big fundamental difference when it comes to some of the opinions on this board."

    I don't think it is that at all. I think that there are some real and serious fault lines where individuals are so sanctimoniously sure of the righteousness of their positions (both on the left and right) that they end up in the snarky extremes and just gross each other out for fun.
    Thank you for posting so kindly.

    I am not saying that no one else should care about a child. I care about many children that are not my own. There are two varying opinions on a parents role. Take for instance the other thread on the morning after pill. I believe a parent should have a say in all of their child's medical decisions until age 18 unless a judge rules them an unfit parent. That includes what medications (or pills) they take. Obviously there are many that disagree. I am not trying to siderail the debate, just to say there are some that believe that the parents are the authority in their childrens lives, and others believe the "community" or common good is the authority.
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    ~Bonita~

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    Posting Addict ClairesMommy's Avatar
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    Bonita, I haven't read where anyone thinks the common good is better than the parents' right to make certain decisions. I also think that the terms 'community' and 'common good' aren't interchangeable.

    I live in a much more socialist country than you. Here (and trust me, some people are pretty un-socialist) there is just a way of life that we all contribute, in one way or another, to the collective benefit of each other, whether we fundamentally believe in what we're supporting or not. That is the way of socialism. And aside from the financial aspect of higher taxes and so forth, I guess there's less of an air of 'Not my kid so why should I care?' IDK. It's hard to explain. Can Kyla or Fuschia or another Canadian help me out with what I'm getting at? I don't want to come across like Americans are too me me me and to heck with you all, because I know darned well that's an unfair generalization, but I do definitely feel like a substantial percentage of Americans are extremely capitalistic and don't want to contribute one extra hard-earned red cent to a program they may not necessarily support, or to caring about what type of curriculum might not just benefit their child, but the classroom or school as a whole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClairesMommy View Post
    I live in a much more socialist country than you. Here (and trust me, some people are pretty un-socialist) there is just a way of life that we all contribute, in one way or another, to the collective benefit of each other, whether we fundamentally believe in what we're supporting or not. That is the way of socialism. And aside from the financial aspect of higher taxes and so forth, I guess there's less of an air of 'Not my kid so why should I care?' IDK. It's hard to explain. Can Kyla or Fuschia or another Canadian help me out with what I'm getting at? I don't want to come across like Americans are too me me me and to heck with you all, because I know darned well that's an unfair generalization, but I do definitely feel like a substantial percentage of Americans are extremely capitalistic and don't want to contribute one extra hard-earned red cent to a program they may not necessarily support, or to caring about what type of curriculum might not just benefit their child, but the classroom or school as a whole.
    I do not disagree with you that there is a different world view. I would say there are several (IMO of what you can know of someone on-line) on this board that while American have more of a Socialist or "Community" POV, There are others, who have a different POV. I am not saying either is better than the other. That is what I meant by this being one of the dividing parts of the board.

    ~Bonita~

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    I do not disagree with you that there is a different world view. I would say there are several (IMO of what you can know of someone on-line) on this board that while American have more of a Socialist or "Community" POV, There are others, who have a different POV. I am not saying either is better than the other. That is what I meant by this being one of the dividing parts of the board.

    What exactly is it you want to debate? The MAP still but on another thread? Or circumcision/homeschooling/spanking/vaccinations? Or several posters on this board? Or the debate topic you posted? I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely confused as to what it is you are intending to debate, or if you are just trying to have a discussion, or if you are just intending to talk about your feelings about certain posters, or what. Could you please try to clarify?

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