Lesbian kicked out of college, and charged $6,000 for it.

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Lesbian kicked out of college, and charged $6,000 for it.


Danielle Powell was going through a hard time in the spring of 2011, just months away from graduating from a conservative Christian college in Nebraska. She had fallen in love with another woman, a strictly forbidden relationship at a school where even prolonged hugs were banned.

Powell said she was working at a civil rights foundation in Mississippi to finish her psychology degree when she was called back to Grace University in Omaha and confronted about the relationship. She was eventually expelled ? then sent a bill for $6,000 to reimburse what the school said were federal loans and grants that needed to be repaid because she didn't finish the semester.
Powell is now fighting the Omaha school, arguing that her tuition was covered by scholarships and that federal loans wouldn't need to be repaid in that amount. She also notes she was kicked out even after undergoing months of counseling, spiritual training and mentoring insisted upon by the school following her initial suspension.
"I shouldn't have this debt hanging over me from a school that clearly didn't want me," the 24-year-old said.
The university insists that the $6,000 bill covers federal grants and loans that, by law, must be repaid to the federal government because Powell didn't finish her final semester. School officials declined to discuss specifics of Powell's case, citing federal student privacy laws, but through a public relations agency said it would provide Powell official transcripts and transfer her credits.
Powell is skeptical. She noted that nine months after she was expelled in January 2012, the registrar's office denied her request for her transcripts because of the bill, though she eventually received student copies of her transcripts.
Grace University's code of conduct for its students is strict: No kissing, no prolonged hugs and certainly no premarital sex. The school even monitors students' television habits, forbidding HBO, MTV, Comedy Central and several other channels "because of the values they promote." The rules are laid out in a student handbook and signed by students every year.
"No one was more surprised than me," Powell recalled of her relationship. "I had been very religious since I was a small child, and that did not fit in with what I thought I believed."
It's not unusual to see gay and lesbian students disciplined or even expelled from private Bible- and faith-based colleges, but Powell's case is unusual, said Ken Upton, an attorney at Lambda Legal. The national civil rights organization helps gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people.
"This particular case is unusual because there's this fear that they might not release her information and they are demanding payback," Upton said. "We don't see that very often. Usually, the school's just glad to be rid of them."
In response to questions about the case from The Associated Press that included Powell's financial aid letter, the U.S. Department of Education said in an email Friday that the issue of whether Powell owes money is between her and the school ? but "it's not at all because of federal rules."

So if the U.S. Department of Education says that the $6,000 is "not at all because of federal rules," then do you think the college has any right to bill Danielle for it, since the college chose to kick her out, even after she did the counseling, spiritual training, and mentoring that they asked her to do? Should a college that accepts federal financial aid be able to require its students abide by morality clauses that would otherwise be illegal to enforce?

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I am not sure what the federal guidelines are for payback, so that one I am not sure about. But I think all colleges have some rules that are non-negotiable. The state school I went to certainly did, I knew what they were when I signed up and knew that if I broke the rules I could get kicked out. DH went to USC and they had even more rules. If this girl knew her relationship could result in her expulsion then she should not act outraged.
I also know a lot of colleges will hold transcripts if bill are not paid. The high school I went to held diplomas if money was owed. Pretty standard operating procedure

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One conservative Christian school doesn't allow ANY sexual relationships.

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"Rivergallery" wrote:

One conservative Christian school doesn't allow ANY sexual relationships.

But should they be able to accept federal student financial aid with those restrictions? They have no way to legally enforce that, because it's against the law to regulate anyone's otherwise-legal sexual activity even on a college campus. If the behavior for which they want to kick the student out is not violating any laws, then why should the student be liable for repaying their student loans immediately? It's not the same as simply dropping out because you've decided to take your chances in the business world or because you've decided you just can't handle school. The school kicked you out for something that, in any other realm -- employment, renting an apartment, signing a business contract -- they would not be able to enforce but they are trying to enforce here.

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"Spacers" wrote:

But should they be able to accept federal student financial aid with those restrictions? They have no way to legally enforce that, because it's against the law to regulate anyone's otherwise-legal sexual activity even on a college campus. If the behavior for which they want to kick the student out is not violating any laws, then why should the student be liable for repaying their student loans immediately? It's not the same as simply dropping out because you've decided to take your chances in the business world or because you've decided you just can't handle school. The school kicked you out for something that, in any other realm -- employment, renting an apartment, signing a business contract -- they would not be able to enforce but they are trying to enforce here.

All colleges have rules that are not legal outside of campus, and they still receive federal funding. I get that you dont like this school, or the reason she was kicked out. But she knew what she signed up for

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"mom3girls" wrote:

All colleges have rules that are not legal outside of campus, and they still receive federal funding. I get that you dont like this school, or the reason she was kicked out. But she knew what she signed up for

Totally agree..
and on a side note why would she want to attend a conservative Christian college if she is homosexual or bi or even sexual active anyway?

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I would suspect that she didnt identify as homosexual and wasnt sexually active when she started college.

I dont have a problem with her being kicked out for breaking the rules, it is the fact that they are now hitting her with a bill for federal funding and that bill is preventing her from accessing her transcripts that I have a problem with. Fine they dont want her there, I'm sure she doesnt really want to be there either, but figured since she only had a semester left she could put up with it. But holding back her transcripts prevents her from finishing her education at a different college, which I think is wrong. Plus, if the federal funding does not come with a no homosexual/sexual activity clause then I think the school should have to eat the cost of that funding. They were the ones who decided to discontinue her education with them, not the student.

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I think it's weird that they want to charge her for tuition that covers the time she was suspended. That seems unfair.

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They are charging her for a term that she started and then didnt finish. The college has guidelines for drop dates and what you pay. I had to repay my school after a dropped a class to late.

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I dropped out of school about a month into the semester and had to pay for the entire semester, it was sickening. To me that stuff should have clear rules and guidelines around it- I know it did for me. She either owes it legally or doesn't - her being a lesbian has nothing to do with it.

As to why she went there perhaps she was trying so so hard to "change" herself from the way God made her but she failed. Poor thing now not only had to come out to her college, get kicked out (love that Christian love!!!) and now is being "outed" to the whole country. My heart goes out to her.

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"mom3girls" wrote:

They are charging her for a term that she started and then didnt finish. The college has guidelines for drop dates and what you pay. I had to repay my school after a dropped a class to late.

But she didn't finish because they suspended her!

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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

But she didn't finish because they suspended her!

But that makes sense to me. She admits to breaking a school rule for which the punishment was expulsion, and she KNEW the rule and the punishment. If she had started the semester and Attended enough that she was on the hook for the tuition she owes it. I had to drop out because I was sick- still had to pay like -15 grand. Fair ? No. Sickening? Yes. But the rules stated that whatever the reason if it was beyond the withdrawal date full payment was owed...... So it was owed. Period.

if the school suspended or expelled a student for not attending classes or failing classes wouldn't you say the student still had to pay what they owed? Same thing.

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The reason she was expelled has nothing to do with this. I went to a conservative college. You signed a contract at the start of each year. If you broke that contract (and morality clause), you faced the possibility of being kicked out. You also would have to meet the financial obligations of that contract.

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Anyone else getting a kick out of the fact that its called Grace college? Not much grace being extended there, eh? Get out, get lost, eff off, pay up, we won't help you transfer/graduate somewhere else etc.... Niiiiice.

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U.S. Department of Education said in an email Friday that the issue of whether Powell owes money is between her and the school ? but "it's not at all because of federal rules."

Help me understand here...

Okay, so she owes the money. It's been a while but all of my student loans were between me and my lender. I had 2 choices - pay the bill up front and then "reimburse" myself for the costs when the loans came in or wait until the loans come through, the university gets their share and cuts me a check for the overage.

That said, when I dropped out of grad school mid-semester, my second disbursement hadn't yet funded so I had to repay $3K directly to the university.

So unless her loan hadn't funded, doesn't the university already have the money from the lender?

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I dropped out of college once (before going back three years later to get my degree) and I got a refund for the time I hadn't used. That's why I was so confused.

I confess it's also immensely difficult for me to understand going to a college that had rules about my private life. Baffling.

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You can't imagine rules about personal life such as drug abuse, a criminal arrest, showing up to class naked or any number of other personal issues? I think all colleges would have some basic rules that reflect their values. What if a college had a rule requiring students to recycle? If you signed a contract saying you would or you could be kicked out, it would be your own fault if you knowingly broke the contract.

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

You can't imagine rules about personal life such as drug abuse, a criminal arrest, showing up to class naked or any number of other personal issues? I think all colleges would have some basic rules that reflect their values. What if a college had a rule requiring students to recycle? If you signed a contract saying you would or you could be kicked out, it would be your own fault if you knowingly broke the contract.

I can't understand actually choosing to attend a college with rules about non-illegal behavior. Unless it was the only choice due to financial reasons I can't fathom why anybody would agree to such a thing. You don't see a difference between showing up to class naked and having a romantic relationship?

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I once had to translate a letter from immigration to some guy who graduated Pensacola Christian College telling him he couldn't get a visa because he didn't really have a degree (the school is unaccredited). He also had no social skills, I don't know if that was related or not. Ever since then I have been obsessed with that school. I cannot imagine what kind of human being would choose to go there. It's cheap, but you don't get an accredited degree, so no real point in going. It has crazy rules like not going to movie theatres, the "prayer leaders" have to open all your mail, female students cannot work off campus, girls can only go to the beach in groups of 5 including a stasi member to tell if they do something bad, like not wearing panty hose under their bathing suits. I think it mainly appeals to people who want a cheap education, who aren't aware that their degree will be worthless. But there are also probably a lot of strict religious kids who are pushed to go there rather than an accredited school because their parents want them to have no freedoms. I feel for those kids. I wonder why the woman in the OP chose to go to her school, and I wonder if it is accredited.

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It sounds like the perfect place for students who are wrestling with their sexual identity to hang out for four years, actually. No sexual pressure, they essentially neuter all of their students. I bet that places like that are actually crawling with GLBT students who are too browbeaten and shamed by their religion or their parents to accept their own identity/selves. I hope they find one another, even if with that "degree" they can't find a J.O.B Smile

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

You can't imagine rules about personal life such as drug abuse, a criminal arrest, showing up to class naked or any number of other personal issues? I think all colleges would have some basic rules that reflect their values. What if a college had a rule requiring students to recycle? If you signed a contract saying you would or you could be kicked out, it would be your own fault if you knowingly broke the contract.

I think that most people with healthy boundaries and relationships cannot envision a school which would prohibit adults from entering into relationships. I have many friends who met their spouse in college. Some of them even did some necking or heavy petting (or WORSE!!!!!) in their late teens and early twenties with that person. I think that it is perverted of an institution to get so involved in the personal lives of adults that they would interrogate relationships in that way. It is not a normal healthy boundary for an institution of learning to have. It is nothing like coming to school naked. That is a health issue. Most of us WANT to get married. Relationships are how we learn to one day have healthy marriages.

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"Potter75" wrote:

I bet that places like that are actually crawling with GLBT students who are too browbeaten and shamed by their religion or their parents to accept their own identity/selves.

I think that is very likely true.

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"ethanwinfield" wrote:

Help me understand here...

Okay, so she owes the money. It's been a while but all of my student loans were between me and my lender. I had 2 choices - pay the bill up front and then "reimburse" myself for the costs when the loans came in or wait until the loans come through, the university gets their share and cuts me a check for the overage.

That said, when I dropped out of grad school mid-semester, my second disbursement hadn't yet funded so I had to repay $3K directly to the university.

So unless her loan hadn't funded, doesn't the university already have the money from the lender?

This confused me as well. Seems like for federal loans or grants the issue would be directly between her and the lender.

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"Potter75" wrote:

It sounds like the perfect place for students who are wrestling with their sexual identity to hang out for four years, actually. No sexual pressure, they essentially neuter all of their students. I bet that places like that are actually crawling with GLBT students who are too browbeaten and shamed by their religion or their parents to accept their own identity/selves. I hope they find one another, even if with that "degree" they can't find a J.O.B Smile

Yes, and they will probably end up in unhappy and doomed straight marriages with the first person they held hands with after graduation. That's a nice thought. God must know that you (general) are really gay or lesbian, right? I mean, how do you keep that from God? Does He reward your lifetime of misery and resistance of temptation with acceptance into heaven even though He knows what's in your heart, that you're GAY? I sure as heck hope so.

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"ClairesMommy" wrote:

Yes, and they will probably end up in unhappy and doomed straight marriages with the first person they held hands with after graduation. That's a nice thought. God must know that you (general) are really gay or lesbian, right? I mean, how do you keep that from God? Does He reward your lifetime of misery and resistance of temptation with acceptance into heaven even though He knows what's in your heart, that you're GAY? I sure as heck hope so.

Why would they not? What is the difference in that than saying I hope someone who stays in a marriage and doesn't commit adultery even though they are tempted and fall in love with someone else is rewarded by going to heaven because the do the right thing and resist temptation. Both things are exactly the same... sexual sins.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Why would they not? What is the difference in that than saying I hope someone who stays in a marriage and doesn't commit adultery even though they are tempted and fall in love with someone else is rewarded by going to heaven because the do the right thing and resist temptation. Both things are exactly the same... sexual sins.

Lesbians can get married AND stay faithful to one another. Why would they not do that freely, of their own volition? Of course, because they've been brainwashed into believing the golden ticket into heaven is a moral, yet miserable lie of a marriage to someone of the opposite sex. Right.

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"ClairesMommy" wrote:

Lesbians can get married AND stay faithful to one another. Why would they not do that freely, of their own volition? Of course, because they've been brainwashed into believing the golden ticket into heaven is a moral, yet miserable lie of a marriage to someone of the opposite sex. Right.

If reading verses from the Bible is brainwashing than ok. No one is forcing them to believe in the Bible. Though why someone would believe in heaven but not the Bible is hard for me to understand.

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I dont believe that bible colleges are keeping people from entering into relationships because of a sin issue. I think most are wanting students to spend that time in college really focusing on God. They are trying to remove the outside distractions of sexual temptation. I dont think they are very successful most of the time. But sometimes it works. We have a kid from our church that just finished at Bible college. He says he was glad that dating was off limits while he was there.

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Anyone is welcome at any normal college to personally choose to not date and focus on studies (or God). That should be an option, not a mandate. Any "pressure" to date is internal, not external.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Anyone is welcome at any normal college to personally choose to not date and focus on studies (or God). That should be an option, not a mandate. Any "pressure" to date is internal, not external.

I agree with this, I sincerely hope my kids dont want to go to a bible college. If they choose to go to one I will support that, but we are really steering them to some great State university

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Probably 75% of the kids from my school went to Wheaton, Calvin, or Messiah college. I remember at Wheaton they had to sign a pledge promising no dancing, no sex, no drinking etc....I assume the others were the same. Coming from a high school that banned dancing you can bet that all of the weddings I attended in my early 20's could have been on you tube as "white people swaying completely awkwardly to the beat". Talk about social handicapping Smile So terrible. My guidance counsellor in HS actually told me he would not help me in my college search as I was not considering Christian colleges. Very sad.

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Well clearly, you missed the part on how guidance=what they want you to do. Silly.

That makes me so sad. I would have been so upset if my school and my counselor wouldn't help me with what I wanted to do after leaving their school. I can't imagine no dancing. I love to dance.

As an adult, I can't imagine signing paperwork to someone saying no sex and no drinking in order to attend school.

I did sign a form in HS for joining our Peer Education group because we promoted no drugs, no alcohol. But then I just snuck around when I was a junior and senior.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Probably 75% of the kids from my school went to Wheaton, Calvin, or Messiah college. I remember at Wheaton they had to sign a pledge promising no dancing, no sex, no drinking etc....I assume the others were the same. Coming from a high school that banned dancing you can bet that all of the weddings I attended in my early 20's could have been on you tube as "white people swaying completely awkwardly to the beat". Talk about social handicapping Smile So terrible. My guidance counsellor in HS actually told me he would not help me in my college search as I was not considering Christian colleges. Very sad.

Thats so funny. My oldest DD has actually said "I dont want to go to any weddings of people I go to school with, they will not know how to dance" Her school doesnt discourage dancing, but doesnt have school sponsored dances. They do have a school dance team as well as a really great dance department that puts on amazing musicals.
I really would prefer she go to a school that had things like dances, but her school is at the top of the ratings in the state

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

If reading verses from the Bible is brainwashing than ok. No one is forcing them to believe in the Bible. Though why someone would believe in heaven but not the Bible is hard for me to understand.

I tend to think that the college is doing a fine job of brainwashing without kneeling too heavily on the Bible for help.

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dp

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I just can't really fathom deciding to go to a college that had rules like that. If I wanted to avoid dating in college I'd just not date. (It's really not that hard.)

That said, she signed up knowing the rules, she broke them, so kicking her out makes sense. Still confused about the financial aspect of it.

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"ClairesMommy" wrote:

I tend to think that the college is doing a fine job of brainwashing without kneeling too heavily on the Bible for help.

I tend to think brainwashing to you is when anyone believes something you don't. We aren't smart enough to come to our own conclusions so we must have been brainwashed.

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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

I just can't really fathom deciding to go to a college that had rules like that. If I wanted to avoid dating in college I'd just not date. (It's really not that hard.)

I think people just feel comfortable in an environment that is aligned with morals that reflect their own. It can feel 'safer' in a lot of ways I think and you may feel like you won't have to deal with certain social pressures that may come from an environment that feels less in alignment with your own morals.

And i also agree with what Melissa said about kids wrestling with their sexual identity possibly gravitating to an environment like that as well, at least initially.

And in regards to non bible believers believing in heaven, its not like Bible literalists have sole ownership of the concept of an afterlife.

I went to a pretty conservative catholic college...although it wasn't strict like this was. Even though i eventually found that i was way more liberal than my own school was, it was a 'safe feeling' entry point into my independence because it felt so familiar to me.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

I tend to think brainwashing to you is when anyone believes something you don't. We aren't smart enough to come to our own conclusions so we must have been brainwashed.

I think that many people have a hard time understanding an environment such as the one at this college or ones like it. It seems SO steeped in fear as to be cultish, and there is a generally wide spread aversion or distrust of cults, wouldn't you agree? To have such strict rules against behavior generally regarded as normal in every society on earth for all of human history (forming relationships) IS hard for most people to understand, I think. I think that many of the kids who attend these colleges are PK's or kids who have grown up in extremely restrictive environments (many homeschooled) and are going from one restrictive environment to another, where they simply trade their parents super restrictive rules for the colleges super restrictive rules ~ because frankly they need those rules because they haven't ever learned to live their lives without them. Yes, I am totally generalizing based on my experiences and I admit that freely. These environments make them feel safe, from their peers, from the world, from sin, from themselves, etc. A lot of people who have grown up differently and see 18 year olds as capable of navigating the world in much broader ways DO see such things as perhaps a form of brainwashing, or such a restrictive environment as being akin to brainwashing or cultish sort of behavior.

It has always been hard for me to understand, especially in light of Christ calling believers to be salt and light in the world. IMO hiding away in colleges such as this is not doing that. Again, it just seems incredibly fearful ~ like the world is too scary so and navigating normal relationships would be too scary so people form these little enclaves where they can be "safe" and put growing up or maturing on hold (again, cultish, IMO).

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Thank you, Melis. Cultish is exactly the word I was thinking of. Isnt't that part of indoctrination - isolating one from cultural norms and generally accepted societal values? You cut a student off from all that normal stuff by making it against the rules and then slowly brainwash them into believing something that the vast majority of society doesn't.

And Gloria, my issue is with the college, NOT with the Bible. I take issue with the Bible being used as a scapegoat for validating hatred and bigotry as, IMO, this college has done.

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Kicking someone out because they didn't follow the rules isn't hatred or bigotry.

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"Potter75" wrote:

I think that many people have a hard time understanding an environment such as the one at this college or ones like it. It seems SO steeped in fear as to be cultish, and there is a generally wide spread aversion or distrust of cults, wouldn't you agree?

Actually I wouldn't. I don't think going to school and wanting to be around people who have the same general beliefs as you do is cultish. If so that would include MANY Christian colleges. I went to a Christian University and we were required to attend Chapel every day. There are plenty of schools that are the same.

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You really don't see how many people could consider prohibiting hugging or hand holding or forming any sort of relationship as cultish? It's certainly highly abnormal behavior to require of 20 year olds, no?

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"Potter75" wrote:

You really don't see how many people could consider prohibiting hugging or hand holding or forming any sort of relationship as cultish? It's certainly highly abnormal behavior to require of 20 year olds, no?

No I don't. Almost every Christian school has rules prohibiting those behaviors in public. It would be pretty hard to enforce those rules in private what are the students going to go to the school and confess? There are no rules against forming relationships, just premarital sex. I don't think that is highly abnormal for a Christian school to say no sex outside of marriage.

Grace University's moral stance isn't that unusual - Omaha.com

Grace University in Omaha, Neb., expelled former student Danielle Powell last spring after a yearlong restoration period. The school discovered Powell’s same-sex relationship in early 2011 and began the same probation process that all students face if they break the student code, which covers academics and behavior.

“Any sexual activity outside of marriage is prohibited,” Michael James, the school’s executive vice president, told WORLD.

James said that all students understand the policy, since all students receive the handbook and sign a statement saying they agree to live by the guidelines. If students break those rules, they face probation and possibly a “judiciary hearing” made up of faculty and students who discuss the case.

“This situation has been handled no differently than any other violation of our code of conduct,” James said. “It’s a situation where the rules were very clear, the consequences were very clear, and everything has played out as the policy said it should. There are no surprises here.”

Powell had finished less than 60 percent of the semester when probation began. According to Title IV government requirements, when a student withdraws before that mark, the school must return government scholarship money. For Powell, that means she has an outstanding $6,300 to pay for spring 2011. James said the school doesn’t use collection agencies—it sends a letter every six months asking the student to pay: “There are no other repercussions for the student.”

According to The Huffington Post, the school asked Powell “why she did what she did and whether she was remorseful.” The article added that “Powell said that the university told her she could participate in a restoration program, involving counseling and regular church attendance, to get readmitted.”

She began that process in the summer of 2011, but shortly before the start of the spring 2012 semester, Grace expelled her because she was still dating women.

“Our goal is to restore all our students to the body of Christ,” James said. “Fundamental to that restoration is recognition and repentance of sin. If they don’t acknowledge that, we can’t restore them to our community.”

In the year since Grace expelled Powell, she has married Michelle Rogers and wants to finish her degree. The Huffington Post reported that the school refused transcripts until she paid, but James denies those allegations: “The letter that they referred to in [the article] clearly stated that we were clearly willing to provide transcripts and help the student transfer to another university.”

WORLD | Grace University offers reconciliation to lesbian student | Aimee Stauf | June 13, 2013

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I read the student handbook. No dancing. Internet and tv use is monitored. Extremely restrictive dress code. No hand holding, back runs, kissing etc.no dancing drinking tobacco . Students are encouraged to report on one another.

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"Potter75" wrote:

I read the student handbook. No dancing. Internet and tv use is monitored. Extremely restrictive dress code. No hand holding, back runs, kissing etc.no dancing drinking tobacco . Students are encouraged to report on one another.

I guess you haven't been around many Christian schools if you think that is abnormal.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

I guess you haven't been around many Christian schools if you think that is abnormal.

well, my sister went to messiah college and I visited her there often. It's a well respected school and nothing like that. Ditto wheaten which is probably the bast Christian college in the country - I spent a weekend there and had many friends attend . Calvin was practically a party school compared to the other two. So yes, I have experienced enough to know that not all are cultish like Grace. None of those three require anything like daily chapel.

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"Potter75" wrote:

well, my sister went to messiah college and I visited her there often. It's a well respected school and nothing like that. Ditto wheaten which is probably the bast Christian college in the country - I spent a weekend there and had many friends attend . Calvin was practically a party school compared to the other two. So yes, I have experienced enough to know that not all are cultish like Grace. None of those three require anything like daily chapel.

Do you mean this Messiah college? I guess you see what you want to see.
http://www.messiah.edu/offices/student_affairs/documents/CommunityCovenant.pdf
Gay student to transfer out, says Messiah College proved poor fit | PennLive.com

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Eta: sorry I am posting from the stair climber and misread

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Of course they don't accept or condone homosexuality- I'm not saying they are great places- they are sadly still bigoted - I'm simply pointing out that not all Christian colleges are little freaky cult like places where they minister your tv usage, ban dancing, have strict dress codes and make you attend chapel every day, or make men and women walk on different sidewalks. I think grace is like a weird little cult, as I described. I don't think messiah or wheaten are that way, though obviously I disagree with their policy on gay students. I know that many students had a relatively "normal" college experience there. Not sure what you are really trying to prove as I witnessed first hand.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Of course they don't accept or condone homosexuality- I'm not saying they are great places- they are sadly still bigoted - I'm simply pointing out that not all Christian colleges are little freaky cult like places where they minister your tv usage, ban dancing, have strict dress codes and make you attend chapel every day, or make men and women walk on different sidewalks. I think grace is like a weird little cult, as I described. I don't think messiah or wheaten are that way, though obviously I disagree with their policy on gay students. I know that many students had a relatively "normal" college experience there. Not sure what you are really trying to prove as I witnessed first hand.

So you have been to Grace to compare how they enforce these rules? Just because Messiah is a little more vague about it, the rules are still there.

2. As a community we commit ourselves to expressing Christian values in
responsible decisions and actions. While not all Christians agree about the
application of Christian values to specific situations, we expect honesty in
dialoguing about and applying Christian values to things such as the use of
language, leisure time and entertainment options, observance of the Lord’s
Day, and personal appearance
.

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