Man kidnaps daughter's killer: hero or criminal?

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Man kidnaps daughter's killer: hero or criminal?

The words "world's best dad" are embroidered on hats and printed on t-shirts all over this country, but a Frenchman named Andre Bamberski just cornered the market on paternal superlatives. After three decades spent trying to find justice for his daughter's rape and murder in 1982, Bamberski found the man he says did it, kidnapped him in Germany, and placed him in the hands of police in France. Can you really blame him?

I know, I just came out and supported an international crime. But just the thought of someone hurting my little girl raises my hackles. I still hold a grudge against the kid who kicked sand in her face on the first day of kindergarten. Yes, I have a grudge against a (now) 6-year-old. I'm not proud of it. But I'm a parent; protecting my daughter became priority number one the minute I saw that second line on the pregnancy test. Forevermore, that will be my job.

Andre Bamberski has spent almost 30 years living with the knowledge that his daughter wasn't just hurt. She was sexually abused and killed. And no one has ever had to pay for the crime. Losing a child can tear marriages apart and even prompt some parents to take their own lives to escape the pain. That Bamberski kept fighting is a sign of incredible strength, or maybe of the importance of his mission?

According to The New York Times, Dieter Krombach was married to Bamberski's ex-wife, and hence stepfather to 14-year-old Kalinka. French police say the German doctor raped and then killed his stepdaughter at his home in Germany. But Krombach has resisted French officials' requests that he come into their country for questioning for the past 29 years. The German government, claiming there isn't sufficient evidence to suggest he played a role in the girl's death, has likewise refused to extradite him.

Bamberski's decision to kidnap Krombach couldn't have been easy. He tried legal channels, and felt like he was failing to live up to his duty as a dad. So he took the illegal route. He became a criminal for his daughter's sake. At 72, he's now an old man who will have to face charges for sneaking the doctor across the border. But that likely won't happen until after he gets to sit through Krombach's murder trial in a Parisian courtroom.

I'd say that makes it worth it ... how about you? Would you call Bamberski a criminal or a hero?

http://thestir.cafemom.com/in_the_news/127723/hero_dad_kidnaps_daughters_rapist?utm_medium=sem2&utm_campaign=outbrain&utm_source=outbrain&utm_content=outbrain

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Hero absolutely. Who knows how many other crimes this man has gotten away with if he killed this girl. He should at the very least stand trial.

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The legal route didn't work.
He kidnapped him and TURNED HIM OVER!
Sounds as legal as one can get and still get something done. Sounds like he tried everything!

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It makes my heart hurt thinking about all the girls he probably raped in those years. That Dad is a hero and I hope it turns out he was right.

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I would say a bit of both. I am not willing to condone what he did by calling him a hero. He did break the law after all, But I totally understand why he did it, and I would like to believe I would do the same in that situation, so I am certainly not going to criticize it.

My only problem with this is that it sets a dangerous precedent. He kidnapped the guy and brought him to the authorities, but...I can just see the next guy kidnapping someone, beating the snot out of them, and then handing the guy over, sighting this father as the one who inspired them. Not sure if that makes any sense, but it does to me.

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"ftmom" wrote:

I would say a bit of both. I am not willing to condone what he did by calling him a hero. He did break the law after all, But I totally understand why he did it, and I would like to believe I would do the same in that situation, so I am certainly not going to criticize it.

Yeah... I'm going to go with this idea.

He absolutely broke the law. For that he is a criminal.

I would suspect that he realizes there may be consequences of his unlawful actions and he may have to pay for them... but he obviously decided it was worth it.

However, at the same time, I think he did what pretty much any other parent would do/dream of doing and it's really hard to blame him for that.

I can't consider it heroic though because in the end, despite the "good", he still did break the law.

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According to The New York Times, Dieter Krombach was married to Bamberski's ex-wife, and hence stepfather to 14-year-old Kalinka. French police say the German doctor raped and then killed his stepdaughter at his home in Germany. But Krombach has resisted French officials' requests that he come into their country for questioning for the past 29 years. The German government, claiming there isn't sufficient evidence to suggest he played a role in the girl's death, has likewise refused to extradite him.

I'm confused by some of the details. If he raped and murdered her at his home in Germany, why would France have jurisdiction? Why wouldn't Germany investigate the crime?

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I am too confused about the details ot say kidnapping a man was a heroic thing. It says that German police don't think there isenough evidence to prove he raped and killed her. Why? Obvioulsy there must be some shred of doubt.

I feel sad for what this man went through but I don't think breaking the law and taking it into your own hands is the right thing to do. He should have focused on fighting the good fight the legal way and doing things that would benefit the good of otherson behalfof his daughter. what happens if they find that this man is not guilty and it wasn't him? Now the father is in jail as a criminal and nothing good has come of anything.

The again who knows what any of us who haven't gone through such a horrible ordeal, would do.

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This is awesome. Substitute "illegal immigration" in this debate and see how quickly some posters replies change Smile Why is it okay and heroic to break the law to honor or protect your child sometimes, but not heroic or okay to break the law to honor or protect your child other times? Singing the irony song.

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Hero. That man is awesome. 72 year old...he's badass.

Interesting twist, Melis.

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OK... this article say he paid kidnappers to do it, he didn't do the kidnapping himself...

In 2009, Mr. Bamberski promised kidnappers 20,000 euros, then about $30,000, to have Dr. Krombach kidnapped and brought to France. The doctor was delivered to French soil, bound and badly beaten, in October of that year.

Mr. Bamberski is soon to be tried in connection with the kidnapping.

Not that him *only* paying for it is any better than doing the deed himself, but the article in the OP doesn't make itself clear on that issue.

The article I linked also says

A German court ruled in 1987 that there was not sufficient evidence to charge Dr. Krombach, and Germany refused to extradite him for trial in France. A French court convicted him in absentia on wrongful death charges in 1995, but that conviction was later annulled on procedural grounds

and...

Dr. Krombach came to be known as a sexual deviant, pleading guilty in Germany in 1997 to charges that he drugged and raped a 16-year-old patient, and losing his medical license. Other young women have since reported similar encounters with the doctor. Despite losing his right to practice medicine, Dr. Krombach continued to see patients. He was convicted in 2007 of illegal medical practice and fraud and was sentenced to 28 months in prison. He was released in 2008.

(there are also details about the murder/etc. of the stepdaughter in the article).

I still stand behind my previous post that the father is NOT a hero and that breaking the law is in no way justified... however, as Lana said, none of us know what we would really do faced with the same situation. I'm sure even if we didn't go this far, the thought would certainly cross our mind.

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"Potter75" wrote:

This is awesome. Substitute "illegal immigration" in this debate and see how quickly some posters replies change Smile Why is it okay and heroic to break the law to honor or protect your child sometimes, but not heroic or okay to break the law to honor or protect your child other times? Singing the irony song.

This dude was raping teenagers. If an illegal immigrant turned in a known rapist to people so he would get tried properly I think he should get citizenship. Wink

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"wlillie" wrote:

This dude was raping teenagers. If an illegal immigrant turned in a known rapist to people so he would get tried properly I think he should get citizenship. Wink

First off, this man had NOT been found guilty in this case, and was actively being protected from extradition. Makes me wonder about the validity of the suspicions ~ france and germany are not enemies, I'd like more details on why extradition was denied if there was actual evidence to support the fathers suspicions.

That said, you support a "good works to citizenship" program in the US, simply on the basis of turning in suspected and untried and un-convicted suspects via kidnapping? Never would have guessed that!

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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/world/europe/for-3-decades-french-father-pursued-justice-for-his-daughter.html?pagewanted=2&ref=europe

I would have shot him personally. I would have taken the time to go get a gun, planned the murder, made him suffer while I was killing him and then put the body somewhere where it would have been destroyed in public view. Jail or Death Penalty wouldn't have mattered. That's just me.

This man tried for 30 years and couldn't get Germany to do the right thing and turn the doctor over. He obviously was well connected or I would assume Germany is the worst place in the world to get medical treatment from if he got to practice medicine again after being convicted of raping a 16 year old patient. It just makes me sick thinking this man has been out terrorizing children for 30 years with a small amount of time in jail after all the crimes he committed.

So yes, if I found out an illegal immigrant turned in a serial rapist and there was a law that meant they could get citizenship then I'd be OK with it. But we're not really debating illegal immigration. We're debating whether the kidnapping was justified and makes him a hero or if the law should never be broken and he's a criminal. I believe the former and you obviously believe the latter.

Usually I'm big on rules (spent 30min at goodwill unloading boxes because the bin's were too small to put the boxes in and the sign said not to leave things outside the bin), but I think if you can save someone else from being hurt (which I understand might not have been this man's motivation, but is still the end result) than sometimes the rules are meant to be broken.

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Also, never answered the debate question! I think that he is a law breaking hero. He broke a law, and then did the right thing. He broke a law presumably knowing and accepting the consequences.

I feel the same way about people who break a law to get here to protect their children, and then try to do the right thing by assimilating, getting education, working hard and helping our economy, while giving their children a better, safer life.

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"Potter75" wrote:

First off, this man had NOT been found guilty in this case, and was actively being protected from extradition. Makes me wonder about the validity of the suspicions ~ france and germany are not enemies, I'd like more details on why extradition was denied if there was actual evidence to support the fathers suspicions.

That said, you support a "good works to citizenship" program in the US, simply on the basis of turning in suspected and untried and un-convicted suspects via kidnapping? Never would have guessed that!

from the second article
A Paris court on Saturday convicted a German doctor of manslaughter in the 1982 death of his stepdaughter, bringing to a tentative close a 29-year crusade by the girl’s father to see the doctor brought to justice.

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"wlillie" wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/world/europe/for-3-decades-french-father-pursued-justice-for-his-daughter.html?pagewanted=2&ref=europe

So yes, if I found out an illegal immigrant turned in a serial rapist and there was a law that meant they could get citizenship then I'd be OK with it. But we're not really debating illegal immigration. We're debating whether the kidnapping was justified and makes him a hero or if the law should never be broken and he's a criminal. I believe the former and you obviously believe the latter.

Usually I'm big on rules (spent 30min at goodwill unloading boxes because the bin's were too small to put the boxes in and the sign said not to leave things outside the bin), but I think if you can save someone else from being hurt (which I understand might not have been this man's motivation, but is still the end result) than sometimes the rules are meant to be broken.

You could not be more wrong! See my last post, posted while you posted this. Assumptions are wrong. So is hypocrisy!

I totally agree with the second bolded. Which is just like why you would shoot torture murder someone, other parents will illegally take their children out of drug war lord controlled danger and into America. Hard to say that what they are doing is a lot worse than shooting murdering torturing someone. Hero's, all around.

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"wlillie" wrote:

from the second article
A Paris court on Saturday convicted a German doctor of manslaughter in the 1982 death of his stepdaughter, bringing to a tentative close a 29-year crusade by the girl’s father to see the doctor brought to justice.

Yes, further reading shows that the conviction was overturned on procedural grounds. From Marla's article and as quoted in this thread by Marla:

A French court convicted him in absentia on wrongful death charges in 1995, but that conviction was later annulled on procedural grounds

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"Potter75" wrote:

This is awesome. Substitute "illegal immigration" in this debate and see how quickly some posters replies change Smile Why is it okay and heroic to break the law to honor or protect your child sometimes, but not heroic or okay to break the law to honor or protect your child other times? Singing the irony song.

:udawoman:

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"Potter75" wrote:

Also, never answered the debate question! I think that he is a law breaking hero. He broke a law, and then did the right thing. He broke a law presumably knowing and accepting the consequences.

I feel the same way about people who break a law to get here to protect their children, and then try to do the right thing by assimilating, getting education, working hard and helping our economy, while giving their children a better, safer life.

Wholly agreed.

And to the bolded he did the right thing and sometimes the right thing comes with consequences that don't always seem to fit.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Also, never answered the debate question! I think that he is a law breaking hero. He broke a law, and then did the right thing. He broke a law presumably knowing and accepting the consequences.

I feel the same way about people who break a law to get here to protect their children, and then try to do the right thing by assimilating, getting education, working hard and helping our economy, while giving their children a better, safer life.

Be still my beating heart.

Yes yes yes yes yes.

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"Potter75" wrote:

You could not be more wrong! See my last post, posted while you posted this. Assumptions are wrong. So is hypocrisy!

I totally agree with the second bolded. Which is just like why you would shoot torture murder someone, other parents will illegally take their children out of drug war lord controlled danger and into America. Hard to say that what they are doing is a lot worse than shooting murdering torturing someone. Hero's, all around.

I'm not a hypocrite and I'm not getting into the illegal immigrant debate because it's absolutely pointless not because I think I'm wrong.

Why is assuming wrong when I do it, but fine when you think that I wouldn't be OK with giving an illegal immigrant citizenship if he turned in a rapist? Hypocrisy?

"Potter75" wrote:

Yes, further reading shows that the conviction was overturned on procedural grounds. From Marla's article and as quoted in this thread by Marla:

No, further reading shows that the conviction was overturned after 95 for the first trial. The one that convicted him on Saturday has *not* been overturned though I have a feeling it will be. But hopefully French prisoners are kinda like US prisoners and this guy will be punished enough to make any bloodthirsty person happy waiting for the appeal.

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"wlillie" wrote:

I'm not a hypocrite and I'm not getting into the illegal immigrant debate because it's absolutely pointless not because I think I'm wrong.

Why is assuming wrong when I do it, but fine when you think that I wouldn't be OK with giving an illegal immigrant citizenship if he turned in a rapist? Hypocrisy?

No, further reading shows that the conviction was overturned after 95 for the first trial. The one that convicted him on Saturday has *not* been overturned though I have a feeling it will be. But hopefully French prisoners are kinda like US prisoners and this guy will be punished enough to make any bloodthirsty person happy waiting for the appeal.

1. Thats fine, I'm totally confident that my point has been made and understand you not wanting to look at the relation of this debate to the immigrant debate.

2. I don't believe you, thats why. I honestly don't believe that you would advocate on behalf of a program by which illegals get citizenship via handing in untried, unconvicted "criminals". It simply does not make sense given out already overburdened court system and the difficulty of granting citizenship. Would turning in a thief get your citizenship? Or an embezzler? A kidnapper (even a hero kidnapper?) It just is unrealistic, and I know you are intelligent enough to see that.

3. He hadn't been convicted of anything when he was kidnapped and taken against his will to another country. That was my point, and it was correct.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Also, never answered the debate question! I think that he is a law breaking hero. He broke a law, and then did the right thing. He broke a law presumably knowing and accepting the consequences.

I feel the same way about people who break a law to get here to protect their children, and then try to do the right thing by assimilating, getting education, working hard and helping our economy, while giving their children a better, safer life.

The bolded is the difference, in my mind, between the kidnapping and the illegal immigration.

This guy did what he felt was best having exhausted all other avenues, knowing it was wrong and he could very well (and rightly by legal standards, although maybe not morally) spend a long time in jail consequentially.

People coming to another country illegally (presumably after trying unsuccessfully to do it legally) for the betterment of their children, also need to know and accept the consequences of potential deportment (again legally the "right" thing, though not necessarily morally).

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This is where it connects to the immigration debate: I have seen the opinion on this board that BECAUSE coming here illegally is a crime (by definition, they're coming illegally), the people who do it are criminals. Period. They get no sympathy, no breaks, no consideration, because they are criminals.

Yet this man, by the same definition, is also a criminal. But instead of getting no sympathy, no breaks, no consideration, he is given a great deal of it, for reasons that I think are obvious to all of us.

So that changes the idea that just by breaking the law, any law, you are a criminal and not worthy of any kind of sympathetic emotion or consideration.

And the law he broke wasn't crossing a border, it was hiring someone to kidnap someone else.

It's a really good point Melissa is making. Either a criminal is a criminal no matter what and deserves nothing, or there are sometimes reasons that people who break the law shouldn't be grouped in with "criminals" per se, as people who aren't worthy of any kind of special consideration.

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"kris_w" wrote:

The bolded is the difference, in my mind, between the kidnapping and the illegal immigration.

This guy did what he felt was best having exhausted all other avenues, knowing it was wrong and he could very well (and rightly by legal standards, although maybe not morally) spend a long time in jail consequentially.

People coming to another country illegally (presumably after trying unsuccessfully to do it legally) for the betterment of their children, also need to know and accept the consequences of potential deportment (again legally the "right" thing, though not necessarily morally).

I agree with you on everything but "the difference". Why are we assuming that this (white) man did accept the consequences but assuming that illegal immigrants *don't* accept the consequences. If anything, an illegal putting his family at risk by trying to better their lives risks a heck of a lot more than this man, who was elderly and had already lost his child. I don't think that anyone enters into hiring coyotes or getting on a raft from cuba or smuggling in on a boat from whoknowswhere....and facing all of the dangers that illegals face before they even GET to this country (let alone try to find work or assimilate once here) without knowing, and consequently accepting, the consequences.

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"Potter75" wrote:

I agree with you on everything but "the difference". Why are we assuming that this (white) man did accept the consequences but assuming that illegal immigrants *don't* accept the consequences. If anything, an illegal putting his family at risk by trying to better their lives risks a heck of a lot more than this man, who was elderly and had already lost his child. I don't think that anyone enters into hiring coyotes or getting on a raft from cuba or smuggling in on a boat from whoknowswhere....and facing all of the dangers that illegals face before they even GET to this country (let alone try to find work or assimilate once here) without knowing, and consequently accepting, the consequences.

I can see Kris' point with the difference. If they're illegally coming, many may think the consequence is simply being deported back as that's what happens (or used to) to the majority of the ones that have been caught. I also know that many illegals are not entering the US using any other means than a car or airplane and just deciding to stay after their visitor visa expired, so there's many different levels of risk illegals take.

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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

This is where it connects to the immigration debate: I have seen the opinion on this board that BECAUSE coming here illegally is a crime (by definition, they're coming illegally), the people who do it are criminals. Period. They get no sympathy, no breaks, no consideration, because they are criminals.

Yet this man, by the same definition, is also a criminal. But instead of getting no sympathy, no breaks, no consideration, he is given a great deal of it, for reasons that I think are obvious to all of us.

So that changes the idea that just by breaking the law, any law, you are a criminal and not worthy of any kind of sympathetic emotion or consideration.

And the law he broke wasn't crossing a border, it was hiring someone to kidnap someone else.

It's a really good point Melissa is making. Either a criminal is a criminal no matter what and deserves nothing, or there are sometimes reasons that people who break the law shouldn't be grouped in with "criminals" per se, as people who aren't worthy of any kind of special consideration.

It's not though. This man exhausted all avenues for 30 years, illegal immigrants do not in most cases. This man took a violent criminal off the streets while committing his crime, illegal immigrants do not while committing their crime. This man was personally harmed by the person he committed the crime against, illegal immigrants are not.

This guy has no intentions whatsoever of committing any more crimes. One and done. He is planning on serving whatever sentence they give him. How many illegal immigrants willingly admit to committing their crime? How many turn themselves in or would sit there and wait for the cops to come get them? How many of them start working on getting their lives here made legal? How many actually pay the income taxes they know they are supposed to pay? For everyone of them that does, that means they stole someone else's social secuity card. Which is another crime. How many get benefits in the form of school, entitlement programs, and the use of our crime/road/firefighters programs without contributing?

This man didn't take jack from anyone except the freedom for a murderous pedophile. He wasn't too lazy to keep trying, he just realized the murderous pedophile was going to get away with killing and raping his daughter unless he kidnapped him.

It's really not relevant at all.

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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

This is where it connects to the immigration debate: I have seen the opinion on this board that BECAUSE coming here illegally is a crime (by definition, they're coming illegally), the people who do it are criminals. Period. They get no sympathy, no breaks, no consideration, because they are criminals.

Yet this man, by the same definition, is also a criminal. But instead of getting no sympathy, no breaks, no consideration, he is given a great deal of it, for reasons that I think are obvious to all of us.

So that changes the idea that just by breaking the law, any law, you are a criminal and not worthy of any kind of sympathetic emotion or consideration.

And the law he broke wasn't crossing a border, it was hiring someone to kidnap someone else.

It's a really good point Melissa is making. Either a criminal is a criminal no matter what and deserves nothing, or there are sometimes reasons that people who break the law shouldn't be grouped in with "criminals" per se, as people who aren't worthy of any kind of special consideration.

Exactly.

I am all for legal means of immigrating to this country. I also realize that people who come here illegally have to suffer the consequences, even though I find them unfair, of doing so if they are caught. However, what bothers me and the point Melis and Laurie have made, is that there is a very big difference in the empathy that certain people show towards one kind of law breaker vs another. That is what is so puzzling. One man kidnaps another taking the law into his own hands in order to do what he feels is right for his family and he is seen as a hero. Everyone seems to be able to sympathize, empathize, and relate to what he is going through in order to condone what he has done. However, another man breaks the law for the benefit of his family, and he gets no empathy and no consideration at all.

I don't get how someone could picture themselves killing a person who hurts their child so much easier then picturing crossing a border in order to save their family.

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"wlillie" wrote:

It's not though. This man exhausted all avenues for 30 years, illegal immigrants do not in most cases. This man took a violent criminal off the streets while committing his crime, illegal immigrants do not while committing their crime. This man was personally harmed by the person he committed the crime against, illegal immigrants are not.

This guy has no intentions whatsoever of committing any more crimes. One and done. He is planning on serving whatever sentence they give him. How many illegal immigrants willingly
to committing their crime? How many turn themselves in or would sit there and wait for the cops to come get them? How many of them start working on getting their lives here made legal? How many actually pay the income taxes they know they are supposed to pay? For everyone of them that does, that means they stole someone else's social secuity card. Which is another crime. How many get benefits in the form of school, entitlement programs, and the use of our crime/road/firefighters programs without contributing?

This man didn't take jack from anyone except the freedom for a murderous pedophile. He wasn't too lazy to keep trying, he just realized the murderous pedophile was going to get away with killing and raping his daughter unless he kidnapped him.

It's really not relevant at all.

Can I ask how you seem to know so much about the lives of illegal immigrants? You seem to know as fact that illegal immigrants don't try for years to come to this country or better their lives any way they can. You KNOW they are not harmed in any way by their ordeal. You KNOW they are lazy.

Illegal immigrants don't pay income tax. True. They also get paid far less then most. When my family was making $19,000 a year, we got back all what we put in in taxes. How much tax do you think a person who is making $3-$7 dollars and hour if that, will be paying out?

But from my experience, most undocumented people in this country don't call the cops, don't go to the ER, and don't use services because of fear they will be caught. They are not the ones on welfare or food stamps because they can't. So what services are they draining from you might I ask? They rely on family who are already here and who are citizens and non-proft organizations to help them. As for school. Yes, they do often times use school resources which I guess other then sales taxes and other taxes they pay outside of income tax, they are getting for free. Are you arguing that only lucky children deserve an education?

In reality, the 1996 welfare reform bill disqualified illegal immigrants from nearly all means-tested government programs including food stamps, housing assistance, Medicaid and Medicare-funded hospitalization. The only services that illegals can still get are emergency medical care and K-12 education.

Nevertheless, Tancredo and his ilk pushed a bill through the House criminalizing all aid to illegal aliens — even private acts of charity by priests, nurses and social workers. Potentially, any soup kitchen that offers so much as a free lunch to an illegal could face up to five years in prison and seizure of assets.

Not to mention their work allows you to pay far less then you would be paying for services that you do.

Again, the fact that you can't bring yourself to even relate and empathize on the smallest level with these "criminals" but you can with someone else is what makes no sense.

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Since I didn't answer the op, I should throw it out there that I do think the man should go to jail. He broke the law, plain and simple.

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"culturedmom" wrote:

Can I ask how you seem to know so much about the lives of illegal immigrants? You seem to know as fact that illegal immigrants don't try for years to come to this country or better their lives any way they can. You KNOW they are not harmed in any way by their ordeal. You KNOW they are lazy. WTF?

Illegal immigrants don't pay income tax. True. They also get paid far less then most. When my family was making $19,000 a year, we got back all what we put in in taxes. How much tax do you think a person who is making $3-$7 dollars and hour if that, will be paying out?

But from my experience, most undocumented people in this country don't call the cops, don't go to the ER, and don't use services because of fear they will be caught. They are not the ones on welfare or food stamps because they can't. So what services are they draining from you might I ask? They rely on family who are already here and who are citizens and non-proft organizations to help them. As for school. Yes, they do often times use school resources which I guess other then sales taxes and other taxes they pay outside of income tax, they are getting for free. Are you arguing that only lucky children deserve an education?

Yeah, I'm sorry, youre experience is by far the minority of experiences for the rest of the US. They most definitely can get every benefit available. All they need is one child who is here legally and they get food stamps, section 8, welfare and anything else their low income qualifies them for. Not only that, but how many do you think only put the one child on their applications when they are applying? The number of illegal immigrants in the ER is ridiculous because they would rather walk in and get treatment and be able to walk out which costs those who pay for their services even more to cover. The cost of having to have a Spanish speaking person around for every single govenrment and healthcare entity? I don't care if their kids go to school, I appreciate it, but to pretend like their sales tax covers the cost of having an illegal immigrant here is just plain stupid. Oh, and I bet they don't call the cops, but I'm sure the population of illegal immigrants are not all saints, which means that they use the services.

Not to mention their work allows you to pay far less then you would be paying for services that you do.

With an unemployment rate of over 10%? Not likely. We could save a **** ton of money by implementing Alabama's law federally and cutting off unemployment when it's supposed to be cut off. Prices wouldn't change much because we'd be paying legal citizens to work instead of paying legal citizens to say there are no jobs AND paying illegal immigrants to work.

Again, the fact that you can't bring yourself to even relate and empathize on the smallest level with these "criminals" but you can with someone else is what makes no sense.

I don't empathize with people who decide to have children they can't take care of. I never will.

eta-I think he should go to jail too. He conspired to kidnap someone. But I still think he's a hero.

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"wlillie" wrote:

I don't empathize with people who decide to have children they can't take care of. I never will.

You also don't empathize with children who didn't ask to be born, apparently.

You also don't empathize with anyone whose country went into a war which empoverished them or endangered their lives, or who had genocide declared against their ethnicity.

You must also not empathize with people who have children, then have drug lords or dictators take over their town, and live in fear and poverty. You would apparently not have had empathy for Jews fleeing Hitler.

In short, you don't empathize with anyone but someone as lucky as you are at this current moment in time. I pray your circumstances never change in such a way that you in some small way need to rely on other people being more empathetic to real life than you, yourself are.

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"Potter75" wrote:

First off, this man had NOT been found guilty in this case, and was actively being protected from extradition. Makes me wonder about the validity of the suspicions ~ france and germany are not enemies, I'd like more details on why extradition was denied if there was actual evidence to support the fathers suspicions.

I really would like to know why Germany didn't extradite him if there was enough evidence?

The articles says they wanted to extradite for questioning, not for arrest, that leads me to believe they didn't have enough evidence for a charge.

In theory this man is heroic in my mind, except that you can't be your own judge and jury. Did he witness this horrific crime? If not, how can he know for certain if the police don't.

Are their processes much different than ours? Maybe that is a contributing factor.

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"Potter75" wrote:

You also don't empathize with children who didn't ask to be born, apparently.

You also don't empathize with anyone whose country went into a war which empoverished them or endangered their lives, or who had genocide declared against their ethnicity.

You must also not empathize with people who have children, then have drug lords or dictators take over their town, and live in fear and poverty. You would apparently not have had empathy for Jews fleeing Hitler.

In short, you don't empathize with anyone but someone as lucky as you are at this current moment in time. I pray your circumstances never change in such a way that you in some small way need to rely on other people being more empathetic to real life than you, yourself are.

Start a spin-off sweetie. Bash Lillie or anyone who doesn't like the fact that illegal immigrants are a huge percent of our population now or something like that. Wink That's a huge jump you are making and it's absolutely ridiculous so start a new thread.

Thanks for the prayers though.

"elleon17" wrote:

I really would like to know why Germany didn't extradite him if there was enough evidence?

The articles says they wanted to extradite for questioning, not for arrest, that leads me to believe they didn't have enough evidence for a charge.

In theory this man is heroic in my mind, except that you can't be your own judge and jury. Did he witness this horrific crime? If not, how can he know for certain if the police don't.

Are their processes much different than ours? Maybe that is a contributing factor.

Germany let him keep his medical license after he was convicted of raping a 16 year old. Then they only gave him another two years the SECOND time he was convicted of raping one of his patients, but then they took his license away. So I'm hoping it's a different process. France convicted him but it got overturned and reconvicted him as soon as they got their hands on him.

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"culturedmom" wrote:

I don't get how someone could picture themselves killing a person who hurts their child so much easier then picturing crossing a border in order to save their family.

Completely agree!!

Empathy is in many ways not universal or blind. For many it is how they relate to the situation and put themselves in the shoes of others. If they can't see themselves in one situation or feel they would choose something else, empathy towards it is difficult and may carry a double standard.

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"wlillie" wrote:

Germany let him keep his medical license after he was convicted of raping a 16 year old. Then they only gave him another two years the SECOND time he was convicted of raping one of his patients, but then they took his license away. So I'm hoping it's a different process. France convicted him but it got overturned and reconvicted him as soon as they got their hands on him.

Me too :eek:

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Your words, thread boss, I don't have to bash you, "sweetie". If you don't like the direction of the thread, don't continue to reply to it.

You choose to punish children because you have no empathy for their parents? Fine.

If you don't like the way your statements make you look, you have no one to blame but yourself. And you are welcome for the prayers.

The only huge jump made here is YOU assuming that all illegal immigrants had children that they can't afford.

The fact that you can pat yourself on the back for being able to torture and murder someone, yet begrudge a family in danger the same opportunities you gut via sheer luck boggles my mind.

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Those were not my words. If that's what you read, then I feel bad for you. But still, start another Lillie bashing thread. It's much easier than diluting the real debate which is whether this guy was a hero or criminal. If you'd like me to explain how to start a new thread, I'd be happy to. Biggrin

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Oh boy, only 35 posts in and we have already started with the sweetie and the accusations of being bashed.

Look you can't have it both ways. You can't see the justice system as a grey area for some people and yet completely black and white for others. But I can see how if you have been made to see illegal immigrants as lazy criminals who take the easy road by mooching off of citizens, that you would not empathize. But if you are going to see that group of people as narrowly as you do, why don't you see this man as just a kidnapper who broke the law?

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Took 17 for hypocrite and less than 25 to be called a liar. And far less than 20 for you to post crap that wasn't said and less than 25 for Melissa to post crap that wasn't said. This isn't an illegal immigrant debate. I started one just for you guys to get your kicks twisting people's words and trying to act like people who don't like the percentage of people who are here illegally are all evil, baby killing, monsters who would shoot anyone who isn't white and perfect. Wink

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Having read more into this thread and seeing that the man who was kidnapped was also badly beaten, I would have to re-evaluate my original statement and say that I think he is a criminal, and not at all heroic.

It doesn't matter to me what the man did. It is not one persons job to be judge and jury and 'punish' another for a crime you believe they have committed. I had way more sympathy for him when I thought he had just delivered him for trial. That I could get behind, but not this.

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"culturedmom" wrote:

Look you can't have it both ways. You can't see the justice system as a grey area for some people and yet completely black and white for others. But I can see how if you have been made to see illegal immigrants as lazy criminals who take the easy road by mooching off of citizens, that you would not empathize. But if you are going to see that group of people as narrowly as you do, why don't you see this man as just a kidnapper who broke the law?

That is my point as well. I have read on this board many time a flat out, completely unsympathetic condemnation of all illegal immigrants based solely on the fact that they don't have legal status. This man gets sympathy and understanding for committing a true criminal act and a violent one at that.

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"wlillie" wrote:

Took 17 for hypocrite and less than 25 to be called a liar. And far less than 20 for you to post crap that wasn't said and less than 25 for Melissa to post crap that wasn't said. This isn't an illegal immigrant debate. I started one just for you guys to get your kicks twisting people's words and trying to act like people who don't like the percentage of people who are here illegally are all evil, baby killing, monsters who would shoot anyone who isn't white and perfect. Wink

When did I post "crap that wasn't said"? And I think there is a big difference between saying what someone posted was hypocritical and that they don't believe it, then calling someone a hypocrit and a liar. The fact that you take it that way leads me to believe that you are more focused on defending your position rather then possibly ackowledging that Melis' had a point.

And yes, I will admit that I see a lot of hypocrisy in the idea of being able to side with a criminal who kidnapps someone and not with someone who comes here for a better life. It's not about immigration laws (thus no need fro another debate) it's about the attitude of empathy that you have and others (including myself) have shared towards the person in the article and debating the validity of that.

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"wlillie" wrote:

Those were not my words. If that's what you read, then I feel bad for you. But still, start another Lillie bashing thread. It's much easier than diluting the real debate which is whether this guy was a hero or criminal. If you'd like me to explain how to start a new thread, I'd be happy to. Biggrin

I'm glad that you feel bad for me, if not for immigrants. I guess that is something Smile I have a pretty cushy life, but I will take pity anyhow, life is hard at times for everyone!

Your patronizing is simple deflection and is immature. I'm quite sure that you know that I am capable of starting new threads.

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"culturedmom" wrote:

When did I post "crap that wasn't said"? And I think there is a big difference between saying what someone posted was hypocritical and that they don't believe it, then calling someone a hypocrit and a liar. The fact that you take it that way leads me to believe that you are more focused on defending your position rather then possibly ackowledging that Melis' had a point.

And yes, I will admit that I see a lot of hypocrisy in the idea of being able to side with a criminal who kidnapps someone and not with someone who comes here for a better life. It's not about immigration laws (thus no need fro another debate) it's about the attitude of empathy that you have and others (including myself) have shared towards the person in the article and debating the validity of that.

I already explained why I don't believe that Melissa's point is relevant. Very detailed I might add. And it's not. You can't compare a violent criminal to a non-violent criminal. They are two totally seperate things.
I don't have empathy for people who have children they can't take care of. The man in the original post doesn't fall under that criteria, illegal immigrants (who came here to protect their families from war-lords, right :wink:) do.

Originally Posted by culturedmom
Can I ask how you seem to know so much about the lives of illegal immigrants? You seem to know as fact that illegal immigrants don't try for years to come to this country or better their lives any way they can. You KNOW they are not harmed in any way by their ordeal. You KNOW they are lazy.

Melissa, you want to call out deflection? You do that in almost every single thread with one person. You find one person to disagree with and then patronize them or attack them until they don't care anymore. This would be the post where you can continue to bash me and I don't care. Wink Have fun.

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"wlillie" wrote:

I already explained why I don't believe that Melissa's point is relevant. Very detailed I might add. And it's not. You can't compare a violent criminal to a non-violent criminal. They are two totally seperate things.
I don't have empathy for people who have children they can't take care of. The man in the original post doesn't fall under that criteria, illegal immigrants (who came here to protect their families from war-lords, right :wink:) do.

Originally Posted by culturedmom
Can I ask how you seem to know so much about the lives of illegal immigrants? You seem to know as fact that illegal immigrants don't try for years to come to this country or better their lives any way they can. You KNOW they are not harmed in any way by their ordeal. You KNOW they are lazy.

Melissa, you want to call out deflection? You do that in almost every single thread with one person. You find one person to disagree with and then patronize them or attack them until they don't care anymore. This would be the post where you can continue to bash me and I don't care. Wink Have fun.

Well thanks for reposting what I wrote, but I fail to see hwere I said something you didn't? I'mnot being obtuse, I really don't see it. I think if you make an accusation that I twist your words and even worse, completely falsify your posts, you could atleast point out where I did that.

I agree you can't compare a violent crime to a non-violent crime. To me it is much harder to sympathize with someone who comits a violent crime (the man in the article) then one who doesn't (an illegal immigrant). which again is why I am having a hard time seeing your position to be anything other then hypocritical.

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Is your quaint little personal attack over, lillie? I find it interesting that just "Melissa" is disagreeing with you, not Lana or Laurie or anyone else.

If you are done I would just like to point out that I am disagreeing with you, Gloria, and Rivergallery equally (You guys all hate the criminal immigrant but salute this criminal kidnapper), you just continue to dig your hole deeper and uglier as you reveal your bias on this debate. I don't understand why you can champion a violent criminal like this man, yet condemn a non violent criminal like an illegal immigrant. If trying to understand that is picking on you, your skin is way too thin. It's a legitimate question. And you may think that I was "Bashing" you when I extrapolated your "NO empathy for people who have children that they can't afford" statement.....but I think that to sum up all illegals like that is shortsighted and wrong. I was trying to provide you with examples of situations in which people might immigrate which have nothing to do with simple wanton overpopulation. I truly was hoping that you might say that you have empathy for people in those situations, as to not, is really cold. Maybe you do but the nature of the debate keeps you from admitting it, or something. I hope so.

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Sorry but I have never said anything about hate.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Also, never answered the debate question! I think that he is a law breaking hero. He broke a law, and then did the right thing. He broke a law presumably knowing and accepting the consequences.

I feel the same way about people who break a law to get here to protect their children, and then try to do the right thing by assimilating, getting education, working hard and helping our economy, while giving their children a better, safer life.

So why don't they turn themselves in and accept the consequences like he did?

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

So why don't they turn themselves in and accept the consequences like he did?

Maybe one reason is because they won't have a lot of support from people who think they are heroes to help with the family they leave behind.

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