Muslim woman's bra photo

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Muslim woman's bra photo

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/04/12/bc-niqab-bra-photo.html#socialcomments

A photo of a Muslim woman wearing full Islamic dress and holding up a bra as she sorts laundry is stirring controversy in Kamloops, B.C., and the Saudi Arabian Embassy is now involved.

The photo, taken by Thompson Rivers University fine arts student Sooraya Graham, features one of Graham's friends wearing a niqab, a veil covering the face, and abaya, a full-body cloak.

The picture was a class assignment and was originally displayed with other student photos, until some students complained and a staff member tore it down.

"I was pretty shocked and I kind of felt my personal space as an artist and a Canadian had been invaded," said Graham.

The ripped photo was returned to Graham and she was allowed to display it at the university's art gallery.
Now, the Saudi Education Centre in Kamloops, which is funded by the Saudi Arabian government and provides support to Saudi students and their families, is taking issue with the photo.

"The artist didn't approach the artwork let's say in a very professional way that can state and can clarify the information and clarify the idea behind the picture," said centre president Trad Bahabri. Bahabri said he thinks text explaining the photo's meaning is needed.

"I'm pretty sure many people misinterpret and many people misunderstand it. I can guarantee that," he said.
Graham counters it's up to the viewer to interpret the meaning, but says she had hoped the photo would show the public that women who wear the niqab are the same as everyone else.

Tasteful art? Disrespectful to Islam? Does the Saudi embassy have any right to get involved?

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"Graham counters it's up to the viewer to interpret the meaning, but says she had hoped the photo would show the public that women who wear the niqab are the same as everyone else."

This. It's art. It's supposed to make you think & wonder. What some people beautiful, others find distasteful, and vice versa. I'm sure that many people have wondered what is worn under the niqab. And ITA with the photographer that knowing some Muslim women might be wearing the same cute flowery frilly things you & I are wearing might help some people realize that, underneath it all, we're all humans.

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I agree with Stacey. I don't think there was anything distasteful or disrespectful about that picture. I think the photographer wanted people to think and did so in a very respectful manner.

"I'm pretty sure many people misinterpret and many people misunderstand it. I can guarantee that," he said. This statement makes me wonder how he (the Saudi Education person) interprets the picture??

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I think this is tasteful art. If the woman that is photographed did not feel uneasy about the picture then I do not believe it should be an issue

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I think that religion is psychotic and I hope that one day these poor women will be free from it all. I always think of stories like this when I hear people in this country rant and rave about women's rights. I'm totally 100% for women's rights... but what about these poor women? It's so sad that a photo that has ZERO innapropriateness is even being discussed like it's something bad.

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"Starryblue702" wrote:

I think that religion is psychotic and I hope that one day these poor women will be free from it all. I always think of stories like this when I hear people in this country rant and rave about women's rights. I'm totally 100% for women's rights... but what about these poor women? It's so sad that a photo that has ZERO innapropriateness is even being discussed like it's something bad.

But the image of a bra, up against a niqab - to me I can see how Muslims see this as a huge contradiction. Showing an undergarment flies in the face of the purpose of a niqab in the first place, so I see how culturally and religiously this is contraversial. That said, this woman is far from Saudi Arabia, and she has the right in this country to wear what she likes and be photographed how she likes. I think the Saudi embassy is way out of line, interfering in the rights of Canadian citizens. It's pretty audacious, IMO.

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My Grandmother, a strict baptist, would have seen that photo as wildly inappropriate in 1950. Does that make baptists psychotic too, Kryystal?

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"Claire'sMommy" wrote:

But the image of a bra, up against a niqab - to me I can see how Muslims see this as a huge contradiction. Showing an undergarment flies in the face of the purpose of a niqab in the first place, so I see how culturally and religiously this is contraversial.

I just showed this photo to two Muslim women with whom I work. Neither of them felt it's inappropriate or controversial at all, they both felt that it's beautiful and that it shows a Muslim woman as a *real* women. Both of them said, had the bra been on, or had the niqab been opened to show her garments underneath (not just a bra but her under-clothes) then those things would be inappropriate.

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"Spacers" wrote:

I just showed this photo to two Muslim women with whom I work. Neither of them felt it's inappropriate or controversial at all, they both felt that it's beautiful and that it shows a Muslim woman as a *real* women. Both of them said, had the bra been on, or had the niqab been opened to show her garments underneath (not just a bra but her under-clothes) then those things would be inappropriate.

I think that's good Muslim women (at least a few) don't find it controversial. I wonder if more Muslim men would take offense than women?

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"Claire'sMommy" wrote:

But the image of a bra, up against a niqab - to me I can see how Muslims see this as a huge contradiction. Showing an undergarment flies in the face of the purpose of a niqab in the first place, so I see how culturally and religiously this is contraversial. That said, this woman is far from Saudi Arabia, and she has the right in this country to wear what she likes and be photographed how she likes. I think the Saudi embassy is way out of line, interfering in the rights of Canadian citizens. It's pretty audacious, IMO.

I agree with this. In fairness, I don't know if the Saudi embassy is actually trying to interfere with anyone's rights (like trying to have the picture removed), or if they are just giving their opinion on it. If they are just giving their opinion, they are as welcome to it as anyone else, but I don't know that it should hold any more weight than anyone else's opinion. In Canada, they have a right to take (and display) pictures like that, so no one's "opinion" really matters that much.

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"Potter75" wrote:

My Grandmother, a strict baptist, would have seen that photo as wildly inappropriate in 1950. Does that make baptists psychotic too, Kryystal?

Um... it's 2012. Are you seriously going to compare the muslim religion to baptists? Last time I checked baptists didn't stone you to death for looking a man in the eye who is not your husband.

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"Starryblue702" wrote:

I think that religion is psychotic and I hope that one day these poor women will be free from it all. I always think of stories like this when I hear people in this country rant and rave about women's rights. I'm totally 100% for women's rights... but what about these poor women? It's so sad that a photo that has ZERO innapropriateness is even being discussed like it's something bad.

I'm not sure if I am comprehending your words incorrectly so I am asking this as clarification...

Do you mean that you find religion in general, psychotic? Or only Islam?

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"mommytoMR.FACE" wrote:

I'm not sure if I am comprehending your words incorrectly so I am asking this as clarification...

Do you mean that you find religion in general, psychotic? Or only Islam?

I meant Islam, not religion as a whole. I'm referring to it as a whole, the way that they treat their women.

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"Starryblue702" wrote:

I meant Islam, not religion as a whole. I'm referring to it as a whole, the way that they treat their women.

In what country or countries that the primary religion being Islam do you not like? Because with 50% of my family being Muslim, nobody has ever called me and said they were stoned that day, wear a hijab, or aren't allowed to flirt with men. They live in Turkey. Doesn't the Christian Bible also state violence towards women as well?

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"mommytoMR.FACE" wrote:

In what country or countries that the primary religion being Islam do you not like? Because with 50% of my family being Muslim, nobody has ever called me and said they were stoned that day, wear a hijab, or aren't allowed to flirt with men. They live in Turkey. Doesn't the Christian Bible also state violence towards women as well?

I'm talking about happenings like this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392454/Muslim-girl-Katya-Koren-19-stoned-death-beauty-contest-Ukraine.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/father-killed-girl-to-restore-socalled-honour-1799670.html

http://www.riverfronttimes.com/2010-03-31/news/honor-thy-father-muslim-honor-killing-in-phoenix-arizona/

To the bolden, can you quote me a scripture where this happens?

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"Starryblue702" wrote:

I'm talking about happenings like this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392454/Muslim-girl-Katya-Koren-19-stoned-death-beauty-contest-Ukraine.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/father-killed-girl-to-restore-socalled-honour-1799670.html

http://www.riverfronttimes.com/2010-03-31/news/honor-thy-father-muslim-honor-killing-in-phoenix-arizona/

To the bolden, can you quote me a scripture where this happens?

The fact is, you will find horrible examples of violence and inequality in every religion. The acts should not define the religion though, being as most of the violence pertained to the religion hundreds of years ago. As for quoting you a scripture... I had to google. My question was indeed a question and was not rhetorical. I thought you could have told me. Here is a link I came across http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible7.htm that has some stuff from the Bible. Again, I don't know how accurate it is and I'm sure someone will come up with justifications for all of it stating that it all means something else Wink

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"mommytoMR.FACE" wrote:

The fact is, you will find horrible examples of violence and inequality in every religion. The acts should not define the religion though, being as most of the violence pertained to the religion hundreds of years ago. As for quoting you a scripture... I had to google. My question was indeed a question and was not rhetorical. I thought you could have told me. Here is a link I came across http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible7.htm that has some stuff from the Bible. Again, I don't know how accurate it is and I'm sure someone will come up with justifications for all of it stating that it all means something else Wink

Those articles weren't from 100s of years ago............but those men were radical Muslims. Pretending like they don't exist is like pretending there aren't radical pro-life people who take things into the dark side.

Eta- deniz, one of the articles had an honor killing in Turkey because a girl was busted talking to boys!!!!

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"wlillie" wrote:

Those articles weren't from 100s of years ago............but those men were radical Muslims. Pretending like they don't exist is like pretending there aren't radical pro-life people who take things into the dark side.

Eta- deniz, one of the articles had an honor killing in Turkey because a girl was busted talking to boys!!!!

Yeah, a radical honor killing. Talk to 99.9% of the people in Turkey and they would be against stuff like that.

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"mommytoMR.FACE" wrote:

The fact is, you will find horrible examples of violence and inequality in every religion. The acts should not define the religion though, being as most of the violence pertained to the religion hundreds of years ago. As for quoting you a scripture... I had to google. My question was indeed a question and was not rhetorical. I thought you could have told me. Here is a link I came across http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible7.htm that has some stuff from the Bible. Again, I don't know how accurate it is and I'm sure someone will come up with justifications for all of it stating that it all means something else Wink

I had to cross reference your link with a bible website because the link you posted was obviously put up by someone who clearly dislikes the bible. I read the chapters as a whole, and it does in fact say that. I'm not defending it, and I have no justifications for it. All I can say is that "honor killings" are done every day around the world and it's a terrible shame that these women cannot be free as we are because of what their religion teaches... I think we can all at least agree with that.

"mommytoMR.FACE" wrote:

Yeah, a radical honor killing. Talk to 99.9% of the people in Turkey and they would be against stuff like that.

Just because they might be against it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Sharia law is part of that religion, and my point is that it's terrible that these women don't have a voice. The fact that a Muslim woman can't hold up a bra in a photo is sad. The fact that Muslim men are all up in arms over it is even sadder.

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"Starryblue702" wrote:

I had to cross reference your link with a bible website because the link you posted was obviously put up by someone who clearly dislikes the bible. I read the chapters as a whole, and it does in fact say that. I'm not defending it, and I have no justifications for it. All I can say is that "honor killings" are done every day around the world and it's a terrible shame that these women cannot be free as we are because of what their religion teaches... I think we can all at least agree with that.

Just because they might be against it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Sharia law is part of that religion, and my point is that it's terrible that these women don't have a voice. The fact that a Muslim woman can't hold up a bra in a photo is sad. The fact that Muslim men are all up in arms over it is even sadder.

I never said it doesn't exist. I'm saying that you should not lump all Muslims with the old time extremists views and feel sorry for all of them.

Oh and I should have known that the link I decided to paste would not be of a favorable one. I can't seem to ever find a good one. Have you ever read the entire Quran?

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"mommytoMR.FACE" wrote:

I never said it doesn't exist. I'm saying that you should not lump all Muslims with the old time extremists views and feel sorry for all of them.

Oh and I should have known that the link I decided to paste would not be of a favorable one. I can't seem to ever find a good one. Have you ever read the entire Quran?

You don't feel sorry for these women who have to live their lives in submission to men? Who don't have the freedoms that we have? And no I have not read the Quran. I did, however, say that I wasn't going to justify anything in the link as it was the same scriptures as I looked up... but I merely wanted to make sure that the scriptures were correctly stated, which I said that they were.

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"Starryblue702" wrote:

You don't feel sorry for these women who have to live their lives in submission to men? Who don't have the freedoms that we have? And no I have not read the Quran. I did, however, say that I wasn't going to justify anything in the link as it was the same scriptures as I looked up... but I merely wanted to make sure that the scriptures were correctly stated, which I said that they were.

I do feel sorry for women who submit to men or anyone else that may have control over them (hello Michelle Duggar!!). It doesn't only happen in Islam and the entirety of Muslims don't practice those views. So for you to say that Islam as a whole is psychotic, without knowing much about it besides the negative news you read, is ignorant. Do I feel that some people whom happen to be Christian are crazy? Sure. Do I see quotes from the Christian Bible (or any holy book) that I feel are mind boggling? Yeah. Do I believe that any religion has a whole is psychotic? No. I would never call any religion psychotic (especially because the definition of the word wouldn't really fit anyways).

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"mommytoMR.FACE" wrote:

I do feel sorry for women who submit to men or anyone else that may have control over them (hello Michelle Duggar!!). It doesn't only happen in Islam and the entirety of Muslims don't practice those views. So for you to say that Islam as a whole is psychotic, without knowing much about it besides the negative news you read, is ignorant. Do I feel that some people whom happen to be Christian are crazy? Sure. Do I see quotes from the Christian Bible (or any holy book) that I feel are mind boggling? Yeah. Do I believe that any religion has a whole is psychotic? No. I would never call any religion psychotic (especially because the definition of the word wouldn't really fit anyways).

Just curious, why do you think Michelle Duggar is being controlled?

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"Starryblue702" wrote:

Just curious, why do you think Michelle Duggar is being controlled?

We had a huge debate about the Duggars in general http://www.pregnancy.org/bulletinboards/showthread.php?682893-Duggars-Take-XX and if you look up Quiverfull, ATI/Bill Gothard... You can see the teachings they follow.

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"wlillie" wrote:

Those articles weren't from 100s of years ago............but those men were radical Muslims. Pretending like they don't exist is like pretending there aren't radical pro-life people who take things into the dark side.

Eta- deniz, one of the articles had an honor killing in Turkey because a girl was busted talking to boys!!!!

What's really sad is that even in 'free' countries like ours honour killings happen. Back in my home town in Ontario there was a quadruple murder - an honour killing - of 3 Afghan sisters (just teens) and their stepmother. The father, mother and brother were all convicted of 1st degree just recently. All because the girls were too Canadian-ized for the parents and the father, in particular, was ashamed of the girls' interest in boys, western clothing, free-thinking attitude, etc. The oldest girl actually married in secret because she knew the family would not have approved. So, they all got drowned in a car pushed into the water.

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"mommytoMR.FACE" wrote:

I do feel sorry for women who submit to men or anyone else that may have control over them (hello Michelle Duggar!!). It doesn't only happen in Islam and the entirety of Muslims don't practice those views. So for you to say that Islam as a whole is psychotic, without knowing much about it besides the negative news you read, is ignorant. Do I feel that some people whom happen to be Christian are crazy? Sure. Do I see quotes from the Christian Bible (or any holy book) that I feel are mind boggling? Yeah. Do I believe that any religion has a whole is psychotic? No. I would never call any religion psychotic (especially because the definition of the word wouldn't really fit anyways).

I agree that it is not right to call it pychotic, but it is a fair statement that Muslim countries are notorious for their views restricting women's freedom, in many of these countries women still aren't even allowed to drive or vote or own property, and are sometimes even held responsible being raped. There is a difference between a woman submitting to her husband because she wants to and being forced by the government.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

I agree that it is not right to call it pychotic, but it is a fair statement that Muslim countries are notorious for their views restricting women's freedom, in many of these countries women still aren't even allowed to drive or vote or own property, and are sometimes even held responsible being raped. There is a difference between a woman submitting to her husband because she wants to and being forced by the government.

SOME Muslim countries. And not every single Muslim person. That's like me saying, "Christian countries and states and people are gay haters." I don't believe in making one big generalization.

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Deniz, are you saying that you feel the Muslim religion as a whole treats woman as equals?

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"mom3girls" wrote:

Deniz, are you saying that you feel the Muslim religion as a whole treats woman as equals?

Lisa, do you think that the Christian religion *as a whole* treats women as equals? I'm trying to remember the name of that woman Pope, or of the female pastor I had growing up in the Non denom church.....and, well, I'm really grasping here. Also trying to remember the teachers or priests who believed that women had authority over their own body when it came to making child bearing decisions and using proven methods such as birth control to control their family size or when they chose to get pregnant....and again, failing.

It may be a more comfortable form of inequality because you are familiar with it and embrace it, but......from an outsiders perspective, there is very little equal about it. It IS nice that most denominations let the women run the childrens programs. Wink Real progress.

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"mom3girls" wrote:

Deniz, are you saying that you feel the Muslim religion as a whole treats woman as equals?

No, and as a whole they don't mistreat women either. Same with Christianity and other religions. I'm not sure why there are sweeping generalizations about Islam but when it comes to the oh so holy Christianity bunny killers, everything is a-ok in Christians' book.

ETA: Thanks Melissa.

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First off, I'll plead ignorance regarding the niqab, and whether or not wearing it stems from a religion or if it's more of a cultural thing. Does the Quran (sp?) require women to be veiled from head to toe, or is it the wish of Muslim men? A combination of both? I'm going to try to find this article I read several weeks ago about the Iranian women's soccer team, and how they're covered from head to toe - long sleeves, track pants, head coverings, etc. All I could think was "What woman in their right athletic mind would choose that over shorts and shorts sleeves?" That's not all that wise, playing in potentially extremely high temps. Like, let's be practical about it. I sensed that they were somehow being forced into it, even though they said it's what they wanted.

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[QUOTE=Potter75]Lisa, do you think that the Christian religion *as a whole* treats women as equals? I'm trying to remember the name of that woman Pope, or of the female pastor I had growing up in the Non denom church.....and, well, I'm really grasping here. Also trying to remember the teachers or priests who believed that women had authority over their own body when it came to making child bearing decisions and using proven methods such as birth control to control their family size or when they chose to get pregnant....and again, failing.

It may be a more comfortable form of inequality because you are familiar with it and embrace it, but......from an outsiders perspective, there is very little equal about it. It IS nice that most denominations let the women run the childrens programs. Wink Real progress.[/QUOTE

I do not believe the christian church is about inequality, and it is not because I am comfortable with it. I have sat through many many many services where my pastor is telling the congregation that woman are considered higher then men. I do not know of any woman pope either, but again I am not catholic. I know you are pretty held up on this woman have no control over anything (but childrens programs) but that is not true in my church or any of the churches that I have visited. I really believe you see something very different then I do when I look at christian marriages.

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I'm not talking about christian marriages. I know all about submitting to men and how that is justified. It is representative of how the church works. When your pastor is telling you that, is she a female pastor? Are they allowed? If not, how do you claim equality? I'm not really "held up" on anything other than reality.

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"Potter75" wrote:

I'm not talking about christian marriages. I know all about submitting to men and how that is justified. It is representative of how the church works. When your pastor is telling you that, is she a female pastor? Are they allowed? If not, how do you claim equality? I'm not really "held up" on anything other than reality.

We are a non-denom church so I am sure that if a woman came forward that the church felt met our needs after our pastor retires she would be hired. I think your reality is very different then mine. How long has it been since you have been actively involved in a church?

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"mommytoMR.FACE" wrote:

No, and as a whole they don't mistreat women either. Same with Christianity and other religions. I'm not sure why there are sweeping generalizations about Islam but when it comes to the oh so holy Christianity bunny killers, everything is a-ok in Christians' book.

ETA: Thanks Melissa.

Not sure where the snark is coming from, I was asking a real question. You are one of a very few people that I know that are related to, or close to someone that practices Islam. I personally do not feel that Christian woman are treated with inequality, but know that some of my close friends feel differently (these friends do not actually attend church) I really just wanted to know what you saw when spending time with your family.

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"mom3girls" wrote:

Not sure where the snark is coming from, I was asking a real question. You are one of a very few people that I know that are related to, or close to someone that practices Islam. I personally do not feel that Christian woman are treated with inequality, but know that some of my close friends feel differently (these friends do not actually attend church) I really just wanted to know what you saw when spending time with your family.

I'm sorry I responded snarky.

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"mommytoMR.FACE" wrote:

I'm sorry I responded snarky.

No sorry needed. I just know that as a Christian so many people have very strong feelings on what they think my life must look like because of my faith. It is often so different then my reality.

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"mom3girls" wrote:

We are a non-denom church so I am sure that if a woman came forward that the church felt met our needs after our pastor retires she would be hired. I think your reality is very different then mine. How long has it been since you have been actively involved in a church?

Not that it is any of your business or related to the debate in any way, but the last time I was actively involved in the non denom church was 4 years ago when I participated in their women's bible study. (At the church I grew up in) I attended a Christian school and a Non Denom church my entire childhood until adulthood. We baptized our three children in the Catholic church (DH was Catholic). We currently attend the Unitarian church, if or when we go. I haven't been president of the country in AGES but no one questions my resume when I weigh in on political debates, which is interesting.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Not that it is any of your business or related to the debate in any way, but the last time I was actively involved in the non denom church was 4 years ago when I participated in their women's bible study. (At the church I grew up in) I attended a Christian school and a Non Denom church my entire childhood until adulthood. We baptized our three children in the Catholic church (DH was Catholic). We currently attend the Unitarian church, if or when we go. I haven't been president of the country in AGES but no one questions my resume when I weigh in on political debates, which is interesting.

Wow, if the question made you so mad you didnt have to answer. I felt like it was pertinent to this debate because I was thinking it may have been a long time since you went. I think the church has come a long way in the last 30 years.

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"mom3girls" wrote:

Wow, if the question made you so mad you didnt have to answer. I felt like it was pertinent to this debate because I was thinking it may have been a long time since you went. I think the church has come a long way in the last 30 years.

Oh goodness, that is far from mad, just honest. Your implication that I don't know anything about your church simply because I disagree with it is ignorant. I don't think that the church has come very far in the past 2000 years, but that's just me Wink

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"Potter75" wrote:

Oh goodness, that is far from mad, just honest. Your implication that I don't know anything about your church simply because I disagree with it is ignorant. I don't think that the church has come very far in the past 2000 years, but that's just me Wink

You really think it is ignorant for me to think you do not know the inner workings of my church?

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Yes. Of course, the Non denom world is so vast and far flung and open to individual interpretation that your individual church could be slightly different from mine. Nonetheless, I feel qualified and comfortable to comment on or to criticize the church in general, having been exposed to it since birth.

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It could be possible that you have different ideas about what inequality is then I do. You may see my man pastor as a sign of inequality, I see it as he was the person that was best for the job. I do not see inequality as being prevalent in the church, what I see more of is that people are placed in positions that they are best suited for. Our church would seem very out of the norm. Most positions on our governing board are held by woman (a city planner that is on our planning board, a cpa that is in charge of our finances etc) and all of our childrens programs are run by men. I do not like generalizations that people make about any church or religion, but maybe that is ignorant of me too

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Yes, we absolutely have different ideas about equality Smile

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I saw this article and thought of those of you who don't know much about Islam. Very informational.