Obama increases patriot act searches by 64%
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Thread: Obama increases patriot act searches by 64%

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    Mega Poster mom3girls's Avatar
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    Default Obama increases patriot act searches by 64%

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    Community Host Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    No, not okay at all. I hope this gets a ton of attention and they end up repealing the Patriot Act.

    PS - I think it's slightly misleading to say that Obama has increased these searches. From the article, it didn't sound like it was him personally. It sounds like it's law enforcement (both local and federal) relying more and more on the tool that they were given when the Patriot Act passed. But having said that, I absolutely think that Obama et all need to ax the Patriot Act.
    Last edited by Alissa_Sal; 10-03-2012 at 09:46 AM.
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    I am against searches unless there is a warrant proving there was valid reason for searching and the search should be made known to the one searched. I wonder what we'd find out if we bugged all FBI, CIA, and all of their hidden extensions. I bet we'd uncover some scary things.

    Alissa, a person hired to kill is just as guilty as the one who hired him - just as an example. So unless the government working below the president is working its own side business, it all falls under Obama.
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    I believe it is creepy-- but not all that surprising. Sure, it is being used much more than it was in 2003,4,5, but think about how technology has shifted in that same time period. The amount of data being created has more than doubled with things like Facebook and texting....

    It is without a warrant that they do it- but it does require a court order (at least the way I'm reading the article.) And it seems unrelated to the Patriot Act and more with the act passed in 1986.

    Admittedly I have a head cold and just took meds, so I may be misreading this.
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    Community Host Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myyams View Post
    Alissa, a person hired to kill is just as guilty as the one who hired him - just as an example. So unless the government working below the president is working its own side business, it all falls under Obama.
    So every time a cop arrests the wrong guy or shoots someone that shouldn't have been shot, you guys directly blame Obama for that? I think that's a big stretch. Huge, actually. I don't think that every action by every employee of the government can be directly attributed to Obama personally. Now, if there is a history of abuses (like it seems like there is here) then I WOULD look to Obama's administration to start working to solve it. So in that way I do think he's responsible for fixing it. I'm just saying that I don't think he's directly and personally responsible for ordering each warrantless search, which is what the title of the debate seemed to imply.
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    Mega Poster mom3girls's Avatar
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    The way I understand it all searches under this act have to be authorized by the DOJ. I may be wrong though.

    Here is a quote giving more specifics on the searches

    "The ACLU has revealed that its Freedom of Information Act requests show that the Obama Department of Justice used "pen register" to capture outgoing data from a phone or email account and "trap and trace" to capture incoming data techniques 23,535 times in 2009 and 37,616 times in 2011

    Worse, Obama has expanded the warrantless searches of Americans' electronic communications.



    Section 212 of the Patriot Act, as renewed for another four years in 2011, now provides for increased duration of these searches of Americans' electronic communications.



    Semi-annual reports on the targets of these intercepts, also required by the Patriot Act extension, have not been filed with Congress."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    So every time a cop arrests the wrong guy or shoots someone that shouldn't have been shot, you guys directly blame Obama for that? I think that's a big stretch. Huge, actually. I don't think that every action by every employee of the government can be directly attributed to Obama personally. Now, if there is a history of abuses (like it seems like there is here) then I WOULD look to Obama's administration to start working to solve it. So in that way I do think he's responsible for fixing it. I'm just saying that I don't think he's directly and personally responsible for ordering each warrantless search, which is what the title of the debate seemed to imply.

    That isn't the the same scenario. In the first case we have Obama's govt carrying out acts according to the law. In your example it was the law carried out erroneously. However when blame starts it starts bottom level then goes to the top. A big executive gets fired for lower level management or clerk level goofs just because an incident happened on his or her watch. Ultimately the big exec is responsible for everything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by myyams View Post
    That isn't the the same scenario. In the first case we have Obama's govt carrying out acts according to the law. In your example it was the law carried out erroneously. However when blame starts it starts bottom level then goes to the top. A big executive gets fired for lower level management or clerk level goofs just because an incident happened on his or her watch. Ultimately the big exec is responsible for everything.
    If you're saying that it's Obama's responsibility because the law should not be in place because his administration should have repealed it, then I am with you 100%. His administration absolutely should repeal the law. If you are saying that it's Obama's fault just because he's the president and they are government employees, then I think that it's no different from the "arresting the wrong" guy scenario. I don't think that Obama is personally responsible for the actions of each individual goverment employee.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    If you're saying that it's Obama's responsibility because the law should not be in place because his administration should have repealed it, then I am with you 100%. His administration absolutely should repeal the law. If you are saying that it's Obama's fault just because he's the president and they are government employees, then I think that it's no different from the "arresting the wrong" guy scenario. I don't think that Obama is personally responsible for the actions of each individual goverment employee.
    If one employee does something wrong, of course Obama isn't responsible for his wrong action. If however these wrong actions are being done on a larger scale, I think there's a problem. If it's not addressed and proper rectification of a mass level of wrongness happening, then ultimately I'd say all of that was happening on the President's watch. I think this is fairly reasonable.

    I don't see email, computer, and telephone bugging and such as any different than the police physically coming into a person's house without them being present or knowing. I think THAT is a giant, giant problem. I say that not because I have anything wrong, but because I'd die a sudden death probably if I found out the FBI, CIA, or whoever was just going through my cabinets and whatever while I was out shopping or picking up the kids. That freaks me out. I don't see the internet as different in this regard.
    Last edited by myyams; 10-05-2012 at 04:52 PM. Reason: spelling
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    Quote Originally Posted by myyams View Post
    If one employee does something wrong, of course Obama isn't responsible for his wrong action. If however these wrong actions are being done on a larger scale, I think there's a problem. If it's not addressed and proper rectification of a mass level of wrongness happening, then ultimately I'd say all of that was happening on the President's watch. I think this is fairly reasonable.
    But they *aren't* doing anything wrong according to the current law. They are doing exactly what the law says they can do and what the law was written for. That's why, to me, he's responsible for changing the law.
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