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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    Exactly. There are lots of people out there that believe this and these are the people in that third category who are commenting. They probably aren't Catholic and don't even believe in the pope but go the easy route that it doesn't matter what religion you are if you are a good person then we will all go to whatever place in the sky that turns out to be the right one. Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Jew, Atheist ... whatever floats your boat we will all end up together as long as you are a nice person.
    I find you calling this the "easy route" dismissive and insulting. People who have a different belief system than yours - just because it may be more inclusive- doesn't make it easy. I could say its very easy to blindly say "I'm right and you're wrong period" and close your mind. Lets not dismiss anyone's belief system simply because it isnt yours, eh?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ftmom View Post
    I dont think that is what he is saying though. He is saying that people who do good will be saved, whether they believe or not. Now it is possible to believe this and believe that the only way to do good is to follow catholic teachings.

    Personally I think this is good simply because it is inclusive. He was talking to his followers, so Im sure he doesn't care if Atheists are happy or upset about this, and I dont see why you would be if you dont believe anyways. But he is coming from a place where his predecessor basically thought non believers were horrible people. He is saying that is not true and to treat them as equals, because Jesus saved Everyone, not just you. Basically, cut the holier than thou crap people, we are all equal in the eyes of god and will be judged according to our actions. It is not Your place, or Your call.
    But Jesus didn't save "everyone" - according to the bible, anyway. So that's the niggling little issue. And in Christianity ( and Catholicism) it is by faith we are saved- not works. So there's some tricky theological issues here that I just don't get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Potter75 View Post
    I find you calling this the "easy route" dismissive and insulting. People who have a different belief system than yours - just because it may be more inclusive- doesn't make it easy. I could say its very easy to blindly say "I'm right and you're wrong period" and close your mind. Lets not dismiss anyone's belief system simply because it isnt yours, eh?
    I find a lot of the things you say dismissive and insulting too. So I stand by my statement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    I find a lot of the things you say dismissive and insulting too. So I stand by my statement.
    Yes. Okay. That's lovely of you Gloria. Thank you for providing a beautiful glimpse of how you practice your brand of Christianity. Reducing everyone else's faith as easy is lovely of you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ftmom View Post
    I dont think that is what he is saying though. He is saying that people who do good will be saved, whether they believe or not. Now it is possible to believe this and believe that the only way to do good is to follow catholic teachings.

    Personally I think this is good simply because it is inclusive. He was talking to his followers, so Im sure he doesn't care if Atheists are happy or upset about this, and I dont see why you would be if you dont believe anyways. But he is coming from a place where his predecessor basically thought non believers were horrible people. He is saying that is not true and to treat them as equals, because Jesus saved Everyone, not just you. Basically, cut the holier than thou crap people, we are all equal in the eyes of god and will be judged according to our actions. It is not Your place, or Your call.
    ITA with this. It wasn't a message to the non-believers; it was a message to the Catholics who had accepted Benedict's POV that any non-Catholic was basically a non-person. I think Pope Francis is saying that maybe to God deeds are more important than creeds. Wow, we have the first Unitarian Pope!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potter75 View Post
    Yes. Okay. That's lovely of you Gloria. Thank you for providing a beautiful glimpse of how you practice your brand of Christianity. Reducing everyone else's faith as easy is lovely of you.
    Thank you. It is just an observation. I do think it is an easy way out. That way it doesn't really matter what anyone believes it is all good. I'm pretty sure that you have made observations about conservative Christians that were a LOT less kind than that, so pardon me if I am not so upset that you are a little insulted by a general statement that I made that wasn't directed at you in particular.
    Last edited by GloriaInTX; 05-23-2013 at 05:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    Thank you. It is just an observation. I do think it is an easy way out. That way it doesn't really matter what anyone believes it is all good. I'm pretty sure that you have made observations about conservative Christians that were a LOT less kind than that, so pardon me if I am not so upset that you are a little insulted by a general statement that I made that wasn't directed at you in particular.
    You and your generalizations. Debate your problems with me when you have them. If you can't do that and need to continually bring up these vague offenses from debates past- which I don't even know what you are talking about- ignore me. It's so old and tiresome. It's like Groundhog Day. "One time at band camp Melissa said something mean about conservative Christians". Stop accusing me of things I can't defend. It's lame and its unfair debate technique and you know it.

    I think it's rude to refer to people's religion as the easy way out. If you don't care that you are being rude own it. Don't blame your rudeness on these vague offenses you claim I've committed in the past. Just admit that you are okay with being rude because you don't care about other people's feelings- don't play it like "Melissa's ruder than me so my rudeness is ok". No one buys that. Sorry.

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    Ok - maybe I am missing part of what the Pope said?
    I am hearing it differently than everyone..

    1- God sent his son to earth to seek and save the LOST. .. I agree.. and think most Christian faiths agree
    2- We should see the good in everyone. Ditto.
    3- Atheists can be good people. Yes

    I think the issue I am having is I do not see the Pope saying that the good works of the Atheists are saving them.. is that what he is saying? I do not read that in the OP, cept for someones interpretation of it.

    Being "good" doesn't equal salvation.. the blood of Christ alone does that.

    Maybe the word "redeemed" is what I am not getting.. is he saying they can.. and may be redeemed and Jesus came to redeem everyone? Or is the Pope saying that we are already redeemed, regardless of beliefs..?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potter75 View Post
    You and your generalizations. Debate your problems with me when you have them. If you can't do that and need to continually bring up these vague offenses from debates past- which I don't even know what you are talking about- ignore me. It's so old and tiresome. It's like Groundhog Day. "One time at band camp Melissa said something mean about conservative Christians". Stop accusing me of things I can't defend. It's lame and its unfair debate technique and you know it.

    I think it's rude to refer to people's religion as the easy way out. If you don't care that you are being rude own it. Don't blame your rudeness on these vague offenses you claim I've committed in the past. Just admit that you are okay with being rude because you don't care about other people's feelings- don't play it like "Melissa's ruder than me so my rudeness is ok". No one buys that. Sorry.
    I don't care that YOU think I am rude. There is a difference. I could say the same thing. Ignore ME if you don't like it. I was responding to the topic that you posted and stating my opinion. For the third time I DO think that saying any religion is fine as long as you are a good person is the easy way out. That is my opinion. If you think that is rude than so be it.
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    And i find that it takes a lot more courage to question and sometimes change than simply believing what yer ma and pa and everyone around you in your little bubble and your little demographic and your little town and your little church that you were raised in believes. To me, that's super easy. It isn't just me who thinks that you dismissing other religions than your perfect little one as rude. Trust me.
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