Praise for pregnant 11 year old (rape and abort mentioned)

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Praise for pregnant 11 year old (rape and abort mentioned)

[h=1]Chile's President Sebastian Pinera Praises 11-Year-Old Pregnant Girl For Keeping Baby After Rape[/h]

SANTIAGO, Chile -- Chile's president praised an 11-year-old girl on Tuesday for her "depth and maturity" after she said in a recent TV interview that she wants to give birth to the baby who was conceived when she was raped by her mother's partner.
President Sebastian Pinera's comments caused anger on social media in a case that has ignited a heated national debate over abortion in one of Latin America's most socially-conservative nations. Abortions, even for medical reasons and in the case of rape, are illegal since Gen. Augusto Pinochet's dictatorship.
Pinera's government has opposed any easing of the ban.
"I've asked the health minister to personally look after the (girl's) health," Pinera said. "She's 14 weeks pregnant, and yesterday she surprised us all with words showing depth and maturity, when she said that, despite the pain caused by the man who raped her, she wanted to have and take care of her baby."
The girl was repeatedly raped over the course of two years by her mother's partner who has been arrested and has confessed to abusing the fifth grader. Her mother shocked Chileans recently when she defended him saying his relationship was consensual. The case was brought to police by the pregnant child's maternal grandmother in the remote southern city of Puerto Montt.
"It will be like having a doll in my arms," the girl whose face was obscured during the interview, told local Canal 13. "I'm going to love the baby very much, even though it comes from that man who hurt me."
Chile remains firmly conservative in social matters four decades after the dictatorship.
The Andean country legalized divorce in 2004, becoming one of the last in the world to grant married couples that right. The Chilean Senate rejected three bills last year that would have eased the absolute ban on abortion.
Pinera said his government is concerned about protecting the girl's health.
But experts say the girl's life is at risk and that she is not prepared to take a decision about her pregnancy.
"At that age the girl doesn't have a capacity of discernment, not even at age 14 would she have the mental and emotional capacity to discern this," said Giorgio Agostini, a forensic psychologist who has worked on dozens of child sex abuse cases.
"It's very likely that she is saying that she wants to have the baby like a living doll. We've seen this in other investigations," Agostini said. "So what the president is saying doesn't get close to the psychological truth of an 11-year-old-girl. It's a subjective view that is not based on any scientific reasoning to support it."
Former President Michelle Bachelet, the frontrunner in the Nov. 17 presidential elections, favors legalizing abortion in cases of rape or risks to the health of the pregnant woman or the child. The pediatrician who spent the past several years heading the U.N. agency for women, also referred to the child's case in a recent interview.
"She's a girl who needs to be protected and therefore I think a therapeutic abortion, in this case because of rape, would be in order," Bachelet told local Radio ADN.
In Latin America, only Cuba, Uruguay and some local governments make early abortions accessible to all women. Uruguay recently passed a law authorizing elective abortions in the first three months of pregnancy in the most liberal law of its kind in Latin America. Many countries in the region outlaw abortion in all circumstances.

Well? Praiseworthy or horrific and terribly sad?

Should this CHILD be not only have attention drawn to her, but be PRAISED for her decision to give birth to a "living doll" of her rape baby? Should her mother even be allowed to be involved in this decision after declaring her 11 year old to have been in a CONSENTUAL relationship with the Mothers partner? Abortion is illegal in her country, keep in mind. Would you seek to find some way to intervene/help this child or counsel her/find a way for her to procure an abortion?

Go.

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She should absolutely be praised. She is doing a wonderful thing and finding some kind of joy and comfort out of a horrible situation. Her mother however should go to jail.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

She should absolutely be praised. She is doing a wonderful thing and finding some kind of joy and comfort out of a horrible situation. Her mother however should go to jail.

How can you possibly know this yet? Just because she says she wants to keep the baby?

There is no way to possibly tell if she can handle this at all..or if she is brave or mature. She certainly sounds like she has no decent support system around her.

This is a horrific story.

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Wow. So unfortunate all the way around. The mother, by saying this was a consensual relationship is condoning statutory rape (unless, of course, there are no such laws in Chile, which would be an even greater tragedy). Her decision to keep this baby is really a moot point, since she would not be able to obtain an abortion even if she wanted one. As much as I would love some human rights tribunal to swoop in and intervene on her behalf I wonder if that would accomplish anything. She says she wants the baby, so she claims, and even if abortion was legal who is anyone else to say that she can't keep it? Even IF she was counselled and IF she began to realize that babies aren't dolls and all the responsibility that comes along with having a child, what then? The rapist and his accomplice (the mother) should be charged with statutory rape, if that's applicable by their laws. I would love it if an organization like the WHO would mandate legal abortion in every country for rape victims, but lots of countries just don't see a woman's rights as more important that the rights of the fetus, even if the baby was conceived through an act of violence. It's a pretty effed up situation and sadly I don't think there's anything anyone can do about it.

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So Gloria, both the mother and daughter should suffer the consequences? The mother is a criminal, the daughter is a victim. Yeah, that's fair.

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The fact that she is picturing her coming baby to be like a "doll" showes me that she is still a baby herself ~ in NO way capable of being a MOTHER herself! The poor thing probably has no idea of what "Mother" even means with a mother who is willing to use her as a sex pawn! My heart just breaks and I wish that there could be some sort of international intervention for this poor baby. No child should have to carry a baby at age 11. Especially a baby born of incest. And to have her held up as some virtuous brave mature example by this man is just disgusting and self serving in the worst and most exploiting sort of ways possible.

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Not sure how such a wonderful little girl could come from such an evil mother... If my daughter was raped I would encourage her to keep it.. even if I needed to adopt it myself.

Murder is still murder.. if her body could physically carry the baby then she should bear it. It isn't the baby's fault his bio-father is a rapist.

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"ClairesMommy" wrote:

So Gloria, both the mother and daughter should suffer the consequences? The mother is a criminal, the daughter is a victim. Yeah, that's fair.

So another innocent child should be given the death penalty because the father is a rapist? How does that make it better? Why should that baby be given MORE punishment than the rapist, who probably will just go to jail, not die.

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And if the 11 year old dies trying to birth the baby that too is good and right?

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"Potter75" wrote:

And if the 11 year old dies trying to birth the baby that too is good and right?

Good and right for someone to die? Of course not why would it? Any more than if you died giving birth. I don't see what that has to do with it. Her doctors didn't say anything about her life being in danger, and with the health minister himself looking after her I don't think that is likely. I would guess if it does become a danger to her life they would deliver the baby early. And what about the mental and emotional trauma of ripping a baby out of her and killing it against her will on top of everything else she has suffered. You don't think that would do some damage?

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Nah, abortion of a 14 week fetus really isn't all that "ripping baby-ish". I have several friends who have had D&C and D&E's and truly, I think that compared to pushing a live 7 or 9 lb baby out of ones vag and then raising it for the rest of ones life its quite a peaceful procedure.

I gave birth as a 31, 31 and 34 year old woman. Its hard to compare that to an 11 (ELEVEN) year old body. I'd say that to compare the two is statistically difficult.

I'm sure her doctors WOULDN"T say anything about her life being in danger, seeing as how abortion is illegal, and the president is holding her up as a political and religious martyr/zealot. Poor thing.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Nah, abortion of a 14 week fetus really isn't all that "ripping baby-ish". I have several friends who have had D&C and D&E's and truly, I think that compared to pushing a live 7 or 9 lb baby out of ones vag and then raising it for the rest of ones life its quite a peaceful procedure.

Maybe it doesn't mean much to you, but yes that is exactly what they do, rip the baby apart.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Maybe it doesn't mean much to you, but yes that is exactly what they do, rip the baby apart.

What exactly do you mean by personalizing it like that, Gloria? "To me"? What exactly, are you debating?

I was responding to the procedure from the mothers perspective. To your statement

And what about the mental and emotional trauma of ripping a baby out of her and killing it against her will on top of everything else she has suffered. You don't think that would do some damage?

She would be lightly sedated, and the procedure itself is not traumatic, that was my point. If you want to try to poke at me personally, or infer anything about my personal views, this is not appropriate, IN ANY WAY, especially on such an emotionally loaded topic, so please refrain or I may not be able to debate this topic politely with you.

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"Potter75" wrote:

What exactly do you mean by personalizing it like that, Gloria? "To me"? What exactly, are you debating?

"Potter75" wrote:

Nah, abortion of a 14 week fetus really isn't all that "ripping baby-ish".

You made the statement that you don't think its a big deal to rip apart a 14 week fetus. That is exactly what I responded to.

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Yes, GLoria, I enjoy fetus ripping as much as you enjoy incest and baby rape.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Yes, GLoria, I enjoy fetus ripping as much as you enjoy incest and baby rape.

Of course. I am sure it is very peaceful procedure as you said.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

She should absolutely be praised. She is doing a wonderful thing and finding some kind of joy and comfort out of a horrible situation. Her mother however should go to jail.

A wonderful thing?

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Depth and maturity? Over a decision she wasn't allowed to make? And if she had made a different decision - would it still be "mature"?

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"ethanwinfield" wrote:

Depth and maturity? Over a decision she wasn't allowed to make? And if she had made a different decision - would it still be "mature"?

Yes- I too am so curious how debaters k ow that she is wonderful, or mature etc when she had ZERO choice in this matter )and is a young child)

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Everyone is so worried about this one girl in Chile who is having a baby at 11 years old, when it is a standard practice in Ethiopia for girls to be married and have children that young. Who is worrying about them? There are girls there having babies at 11 that haven't been raped, it is just normal for them to be married at that age. I saw a documentary about it on TV and it is just so sad. I'm sure this girl in Chile has a much better chance at having a healthy baby than any of those girls.

Mamo works with Ethiopia's National Association on Traditional Practices, a group that is involved in villages like Yinsa. Child marriages are prevalent in rural regions, and Amhara, where Yinsa is located, has the highest rate in Ethiopia. About 40 percent of girls are married by 15 or younger.

Rural Ethiopia Ignores Law Against Child Brides : NPR

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Everyone is so worried about this one girl in Chile who is having a baby at 11 years old, when it is a standard practice in Ethiopia for girls to be married and have children that young. Who is worrying about them? There are girls there having babies at 11 that haven't been raped, it is just normal for them to be married at that age. I saw a documentary about it on TV and it is just so sad. I'm sure this girl in Chile has a much better chance at having a healthy baby than any of those girls.

deflection

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Wait- since sad things happen in Ethiopia this makes this pregnant 11 year old incest survivor who is being forced to carry her rape incest baby okay?

Im missing the connection.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Wait- since sad things happen in Ethiopia this makes this pregnant 11 year old incest survivor who is being forced to carry her rape incest baby okay?

Im missing the connection.

She isn't being forced. She wants to have the baby. Why should she be forced to kill her baby?

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

She isn't being forced. She wants to have the baby. Why should she be forced to kill her baby?

You believe everything you read? So you also believe the sex was consentual because the mother said so. Okay.

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"Potter75" wrote:

You believe everything you read? So you also believe the sex was consentual because the mother said so. Okay.

Do you have some information I don't know about? Otherwise all I can go by is what SHE told the TV station when she was interviewed.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Do you have some information I don't know about? Otherwise all I can go by is what SHE told the TV station.

I think we know some about the culture...the laws surrounding abortion, the type of people she was raised by.

Context.

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Right- just like the info the mother stated. Why do you believe the child who is 11 and has no option to have an abortion but not the mother if you believe all the statements you are reading?

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"Potter75" wrote:

Right- just like the info the mother stated. Why do you believe the child who is 11 and has no option to have an abortion but not the mother if you believe all the statements you are reading?

The girl's statement wasn't in writing. She stated it in a TV interview. How could they lie about that? It doesn't matter what the mother says, it is not possible that it was consentual at 11 years old.

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I am a bit confused about her "not having a choice" (honestly). I do see that she did not have the choice of an abortion, since that is illegal there, but isn't adoption an option there? I mean, she isn't being forced to raise the baby, is she?

I do agree it's a stretch to say she has depth and maturity...to me, she has two choices (because of the country she lives in). She can have the child and raise it, or she can have the child and give it up for adoption....she has said she wants to raise the child, despite the fact that the baby was concieved out of these horrible circumstances. Given her statements about it being like having a doll in her arms, I do see the issue with calling her decision one made out of depth and maturity. It seems more to be made out of a lack of understanding of the responsibilities that come with raising a child. I think a lot of 11 year olds (including me at that age) have kind of a fairy tale idea of what it would be like to have your own baby.

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"KimPossible" wrote:

I think we know some about the culture...the laws surrounding abortion, the type of people she was raised by.

Context.

So how does that make it true that she is being forced when she has said otherwise?

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Everyone is so worried about this one girl in Chile who is having a baby at 11 years old, when it is a standard practice in Ethiopia for girls to be married and have children that young. Who is worrying about them? There are girls there having babies at 11 that haven't been raped, it is just normal for them to be married at that age. I saw a documentary about it on TV and it is just so sad. I'm sure this girl in Chile has a much better chance at having a healthy baby than any of those girls.

Rural Ethiopia Ignores Law Against Child Brides : NPR

We all are Gloria. It's a human rights issue.

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"SID081108" wrote:

I think a lot of 11 year olds (including me at that age) have kind of a fairy tale idea of what it would be like to have your own baby.

So do a lot of 16 and 17 year olds that are having babies. Yet we glorify them on TV with reality shows.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

So how does that make it true that she is being forced when she has said otherwise?

You seem to act like its not a possibility when all the signs are there that she was coerced into this position. For cripes sake the leader of this country has praised her for simply uttering the words. Surely that is a climate conducive to making ones own autonomous decision....not. And you know there is the whole fact that she is 11 years old, because you know, parents never weigh in on their 11 year olds decisions.

And even without the 'little doll' comment...to give her such high praise for merely uttering the words that she wants to keep the baby is just ridiculous. You can say lots of things, especially at 11 years old and not understand the gravity of what it is you are actually saying.

Really this whole thing is just sad. I fear for this kid. The people looking after her are a mother who sees nothing wrong with this situation (makes me sick) and some leadership that has taken to making her into a public example. I wish someone could take her far away from that place.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

So do a lot of 16 and 17 year olds that are having babies. Yet we glorify them on TV with reality shows.

I'm not really sure how that's relevant here, but from the 16 and pregnant episodes I've watched, I don't see them being glorified at all. It's more like a chance for us to see what a trainwreck most of their lives as young mothers are. But I see this as different because it's a statement being made by a high government official. It would be like Obama publically praising teenage mothers (that have been impregnanted through molestation).

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy this baby is going to be born. I just don't think this child is old enough to raise a child, especially with what a whacked up family she clearly has. I think the child would be much better off with an adoptive family.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

So do a lot of 16 and 17 year olds that are having babies. Yet we glorify them on TV with reality shows.

Again with the deflection. We aren't talking about them right now, we are talking about this girl. How does the existence of these 16 and 17 year olds mean that the words that came out of this 11 year olds mouth show maturity.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

The girl's statement wasn't in writing. She stated it in a TV interview. How could they lie about that? It doesn't matter what the mother says, it is not possible that it was consentual at 11 years old.

And in my mind its not possible that an ELEVEN year old victim of long term abuse is able to make a consentual decision about her "baby doll" when she has no idea about what being a mother means.

I have no idea what the statement being in writing or not matters, you have lost me there. I will say that putting an 11 year old incest victim on TELEVISION is sick in and of itself, asking her to then be the face of some moral or religiously zealot agenda is even worse. Talk about victimizing the victim. Sick.

Carrie ~ I too wonder HOW this kid can keep the kid? Her mother will be in jail as will her step father or whoever that creeper was. So some stranger takes in this child and HER child? I can't even envision how that works.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

So do a lot of 16 and 17 year olds that are having babies. Yet we glorify them on TV with reality shows.

Again, how is this related? I certainly don't glorify these people, I've never watched one of those shows in my entire life. Don't most people watch them though because of what a MESS they are, not because of how awesome they are? Aren't they like honey boo boo? People don't tune in to her because she is glorified, but because they like to feel superior to the trainwreck that is being taken advantage of.

Are you saying that because we take advantage of 16 year old pregnant girls for TV ratings it is okay and GOOD for this president to take advantage of this 11 year old? Because that is some messed up thinking, right there.

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"KimPossible" wrote:

You seem to act like its not a possibility when all the signs are there that she was coerced into this position. For cripes sake the leader of this country has praised her for simply uttering the words. Surely that is a climate conducive to making ones own autonomous decision....not. And you know there is the whole fact that she is 11 years old, because you know, parents never weigh in on their 11 year olds decisions.

And even without the 'little doll' comment...to give her such high praise for merely uttering the words that she wants to keep the baby is just ridiculous. You can say lots of things, especially at 11 years old and not understand the gravity of what it is you are actually saying.

Really this whole thing is just sad. I fear for this kid. The people looking after her are a mother who sees nothing wrong with this situation (makes me sick) and some leadership that has taken to making her into an public example. I wish someone could take her far away from that place.

Of course its a possibility, but I don't automatically assume because she wants to keep her baby she is being forced to. But yet you want her to be forced to abort. Of course she probably doesn't understand what it is really like to have a baby, but if she was 16 and didn't understand what it was really like to have a baby does that automatically mean that she was forced to have it? Because there are many girls that age who have babies that think it is like having a doll too.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Again, how is this related? I certainly don't glorify these people, I've never watched one of those shows in my entire life. Don't most people watch them though because of what a MESS they are, not because of how awesome they are? Aren't they like honey boo boo? People don't tune in to her because she is glorified, but because they like to feel superior to the trainwreck that is being taken advantage of.

Are you saying that because we take advantage of 16 year old pregnant girls for TV ratings it is okay and GOOD for this president to take advantage of this 11 year old? Because that is some messed up thinking, right there.

It is related because many 16 year olds don't always understand what having a baby is any more than this 11 year old, but we don't force them to abort their babies.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Of course its a possibility, but I don't automatically assume because she wants to keep her baby she is being forced to.

I am going to go with what the signs point to being way more likely, for the reasons i just stated. You choose to believe the words of an 11 year old rape victim, just because?...i don't know why really. You say you have no reason to not believe her...i think we've presented enough reasons already.

But yet you want her to be forced to abort.

I want her to not be put in the spotlight. I want her to receive appropriate counseling...iI want to take her out of a country that has chosen to put pressure on her to be a model of their ethical and moral vision....an ELEVEN year old...RAPE victim! I want her to have guidance on what to do at this point from someone who has her interests at heart. She has none of that.

Of course she probably doesn't understand what it is really like to have a baby, but if she was 16 and didn't understand what it was really like to have a baby does that automatically mean that she was forced to have it? Because there are many girls that age who have babies that think it is like having a doll too.

I don't understand why you insist on talking about other people in other situations. I"m trying to debate this girl in this situation.

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Having not seen the show do they showcase preteens ever? Or incest or rape babies? You are comparing apples and oranges.

does the mother in you truly have no compassion or concern for the fact that this child is ELEVEN, Gloria?

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"Potter75" wrote:

Having not seen the show do they showcase preteens ever? Or incest or rape babies? You are comparing apples and oranges.

No, never either one. And if they did it would be really disturbing. I agree, apples and oranges.

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"Potter75" wrote:

does the mother in you truly have no compassion or concern for the fact that this child is ELEVEN, Gloria?

Absolutely. And I can tell you that I was mature enough at 11 to understand if someone forced me to kill my own baby and it would have devastated me. I loved kids and babysat my baby nephews from the time I was 10 years old.

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Who was talking forced abortion?

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Absolutely. And I can tell you that I was mature enough at 11 to understand if someone forced me to kill my own baby and it would have devastated me. I loved kids and babysat my baby nephews from the time I was 10 years old.

So because you liked babysitting and presumably had never been raped for years you know how she should feel. Okay.

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"Jessica80" wrote:

Who was talking forced abortion?

I was actually going to ask this question myself, as I didn't personally read that into anyone's responses. I think, as Kim indicated, everyone just feels like this should all be handled differently. Even the strong pro-lifer in me feels the same way. The whole situation is sad and it just doesn't seem right for them to use her as an example...not to mention the whole scary thought of how her life (and the life of that baby) will turn out after all of this. We have to see the WHOLE picture and be concerned for all of the innocent lives involved, not just the unborn one. At least that's my take.

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"Jessica80" wrote:

Who was talking forced abortion?

She stated she wants to keep her baby. So how would an abortion be anything but forced?

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She probably knows of no other option besides adoption.

I don't think anyone is advocating forced abortion. Government forced abortion is just as gross as government forced pregnancy.

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"Potter75" wrote:

So because you liked babysitting and presumably had never been raped for years you know how she should feel. Okay.

No I know how she feels because she stated on TV that she wanted to keep her baby, and I think an 11 year old can be mature enough to understand the difference between giving birth to a baby and an abortion.

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"SID081108" wrote:

not to mention the whole scary thought of how her life (and the life of that baby) will turn out after all of this. We have to see the WHOLE picture and be concerned for all of the innocent lives involved, not just the unborn one. At least that's my take.

Thats the thing that gets me in this situation. Whats the point of praising her for saying she wants to keep the baby if she isn't even necessarily capable of doing so? To praise her at the point for the mere desire to keep the baby is a bit jumping the gun...it may turn out to actually be a very immature and naive thing to have said....or a coerced thing.

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Cant even answer this one. My 11 year old is at Middle school church camp and this thread kind of makes me want to drive up there and hug her and make sure she took her blanky with her

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