Race-based request NCIU

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Race-based request NCIU

Lawsuit: Race-based request sidelined Michigan nurse - CNN.com

The man approached Battle, while she was caring for his child in the hospital's neonatal intensive care unit, asking to speak to her supervisor, according to the complaint filed in January by Battle's attorney.

She pointed the charge nurse in his direction.

The man, who is not named in the filing, allegedly showed her a tattoo that may have been "a swastika of some kind" and told her that he didn't want African-Americans involved in his baby's care.

The request, according to the lawsuit, made its way through management ranks, and was granted. Battle's manager called her at home to tell her she would be reassigned -- and why, the suit says.

What do you think? Is it a request that should be honored? Does she have a case?

Joined: 08/17/04
Posts: 2226

I don't know. I would like to think I have the ability to pick who I want caring for me and my children, within reason, and while I disagree with him where would that leave me if I am not happy with a certain nurse's care or bedside manner? Can I not try to ask for someone else without being sued.

I don't really think she has a case, but I have no legal background either. I think, his actions were awful and as I parent I would want the best care for my child regardless of color.

mom3girls's picture
Joined: 01/09/07
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I would like to hear the other side of the coin. Did the dad have an actual swastika? Was he an actual racist?

I had a HORRIBLE experience with a nurse when I was 26 weeks pg with #3. She was so horrible, my husband went and found the head of the hospital and told them she was no longer allowed in my room. When my OB showed up he told us we were not the only people to complain, that most people that came in contact with her asked to not allow her into the room. This experience taught me that even a super competent nurse is not always the best person to care for some people.

mom2robbie's picture
Joined: 01/20/07
Posts: 2541

I think where the problem becomes is the specific note on the file saying no African-American nurses were allowed to touch the baby. So it does not seem to me to that it was not an issue of this nurse's competency. I think she has a case, especially with the hospital admitting the reason for her being moved was race.

You do have the right to ask for a different nurse if there is something wrong with their care, manner etc.

When my epidural wore off when I had Robbie the Tylenol 3s they gave me were doing nothing. The nurse who I had that night told me I was being a brat for asking for something stronger. No, I was not, I was in the middle of a gallbladder attack and T3s were not going to help. I called her on it and she apologized not having looked at my chart and seeing I had been in labour for 73 hours before giving birth and the gallstones.... She was only my nurse for 2 hours but if had not been overnight I would have asked for a change.

Joined: 08/17/04
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But technically the hospital wasn't doing that because they think AA nurses should not be allowed to touch babies. It was one patient's request.

Again, I think it is a disgusting request but reasons for not wanting medical professionals to work with you can be very subjective. Why is my reasoning better than his so to speak?

MissyJ's picture
Joined: 01/31/02
Posts: 3218

I'm curious as to who put the note within the chart... (since the hospital's lawyer had it removed.) Was the request specifically for this one nurse (as in he complained and asked for her to be removed... and someone projected that it was because of a tattoo depicting a swastika that it was because of race -- or did he actually state that he wanted no AA nurses period for his child's care?

I agree with Jessica that the request was disgusting. My hope is that this man learns as a father that he needs to put his child's LIFE above his own prejudices.

********

In reading through the comments, however, I did come across one that gave me pause. What about female patients refusing care by a male nurse or caregiver? (For the sake of this argument, let's focus on someone that must give personal care outside of dealing with meds or checking vitals.)

Does a patient have a right to state that they simply are more comfortable with a female handling their care or should that be considered a discriminatory request? After all, most male patients must have opposite sex caregivers since the nursing field continues to be primarily female dominated.

Joined: 08/17/04
Posts: 2226

I think if it is within reason that we should be able to request a preference...but it doesn't mean it has to be or is able to be granted. If I wanted a female nurse and only male nurses were available...well I'm out of luck if I want care.

I have a preference for female physicians for ob/gyn and pcp. If I'm sick though, I will see anyone but I have the right to ask for a female physician and they have the right to say a female physician isn't available and I have to make a choice on what I want to do.

mom2robbie's picture
Joined: 01/20/07
Posts: 2541

From the stories I read the note said no AA nurses, now it may be there was only one AA nurse in the NICU but that does not change things. I think that tattoo thing does not matter and may be a way of trying to justify what happened.

I have had both male and female nurses and have no issues, however there are some procedures that as a sexual assault survivor I find it harder for a male to preform. If I know even a few minutes in advance I can prepare myself and it is ok.

Sapphire Sunsets's picture
Joined: 05/19/02
Posts: 672

"MissyJ" wrote:

In reading through the comments, however, I did come across one that gave me pause. What about female patients refusing care by a male nurse or caregiver? (For the sake of this argument, let's focus on someone that must give personal care outside of dealing with meds or checking vitals.)

Does a patient have a right to state that they simply are more comfortable with a female handling their care or should that be considered a discriminatory request? After all, most male patients must have opposite sex caregivers since the nursing field continues to be primarily female dominated.

Bolded: Yes, they do. When i worked at the nursing home as a CNA we had one hallway where there couldn't be any male aides because the majority of those women requested only females (and it's written in the care plans).

On subject: Yes, you can refuse a nurse. We did while *J* was in the NICU, that was because she kept forgetting to lift the table back up that he was on and the water/moisture from the vent was going into his lungs. Not fun to see.

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
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I think anyone should be able to refuse any care provider they want to, for any reason they want to. I don't think this father's reason was a very good one, but it was to him and it's his baby needing the care. And I don't see how this nurse has anything to sue over, unless perhaps she was sent home without pay instead of being re-assigned to someone else who didn't hate her because of her skin color.

When I was in labor with Weston, the stupid little barely-out-of-med-school resident who told me I wasn't "authorized" to have a VBAC was told -- and not very politely, either, since I'd been in labor for almost three days at that point & had spent the morning trying to push a baby out! -- to get out of my room and not come back. :shock:

MissyJ's picture
Joined: 01/31/02
Posts: 3218

I have been fortunate to deal with some truly amazing nurses. (Drove my husband crazy that most would end up in my room chatting overnight. Blum 3 He learned to give up and go home to get rest.) I am all the more grateful after hearing your horror stories. I cannot imagine having to deal with that -- while in labor or for my child's care. I am so sorry that you had those experiences... and good for each of you that were able to speak up for better care. Far too many accept whatever they are told without questioning.

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6561

My first reaction was that of Missy's, what about requesting a woman just because you are more comfortable? I think it is horrible to not let a nurse see you just because she is Black. That said, I would think it would be within your rights to request a different nurse without giving a reason.

Side OT story about having a woman OB vs. a man OB, years ago I insisted I have a woman OB. Experience and heartache has taught me that it is much more important to have whoever is most qualified then to just have a woman. Having had a child in the NICU, I can say for certain that I would want the most qualified nurse regardless if she was White, Black, or purple with pink polka dots. Whoever was going to get my baby healthy and home to me faster.

ftmom's picture
Joined: 09/04/06
Posts: 1538

I think everyone has made good points about being able to request a female, or just another nurse etc. I cant help but thing though, that most nurses that work in the NICU have extra training (at least my aunt did). So if this nurse was assigned outside the NICU after she had to undergo specific training to be there....especially if she had to pay for it herself, or take time off work etc.....then maybe she has a case?

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
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"ftmom" wrote:

I think everyone has made good points about being able to request a female, or just another nurse etc. I cant help but thing though, that most nurses that work in the NICU have extra training (at least my aunt did). So if this nurse was assigned outside the NICU after she had to undergo specific training to be there....especially if she had to pay for it herself, or take time off work etc.....then maybe she has a case?

When Caitlyn was in the NICU the NICU was decided up into pods. In our NICU there were 6 pods. In each pod there were about 8 babies. Each nurse had only 2 or 3 babies to care for. A baby that small needs a lot of one on one attention. Nurses were able to request a particular patient and then stay with that patient. If a parent were to complain or ask for a different nurse, that nurse would just be moved to a different patient or even a different pod.

mom2robbie's picture
Joined: 01/20/07
Posts: 2541

"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

When Caitlyn was in the NICU the NICU was decided up into pods. In our NICU there were 6 pods. In each pod there were about 8 babies. Each nurse had only 2 or 3 babies to care for. A baby that small needs a lot of one on one attention. Nurses were able to request a particular patient and then stay with that patient. If a parent were to complain or ask for a different nurse, that nurse would just be moved to a different patient or even a different pod.

It depends on the NICU though, the one Robbie was in had 10 beds total in one area. That was it.

Joined: 03/08/03
Posts: 3189

I will go against the group and say she has a complete right to sue and should do so. Just because this man is a racist doesn't mean the hospital should agree to his racist ideas. It's one thing to have an issue with a nurse or doctor because of how they treat you. It's another thing to be a racist and then get the hospital to support that choice. They should not have supported him unless he had problems with her performance, her attitude, or her treatment of him and his child.

Sue sue sue.

Joined: 08/17/04
Posts: 2226

But Laurie, when does it become okay? Just because the majority think his ideas are heinous doesn't mean he has less of an option. Am I sexist if I ask for a male doctor or female doctor due to preference only? If the hospital lets me have all male physicians are they sexist?

Joined: 03/08/03
Posts: 3189

"Jessica80" wrote:

But Laurie, when does it become okay? Just because the majority think his ideas are heinous doesn't mean he has less of an option. Am I sexist if I ask for a male doctor or female doctor due to preference only? If the hospital lets me have all male physicians are they sexist?

Well there are laws against discrimination so that is a great place to start.
After that, well....I prefer a female doctor so that's who I go to when I am selecting a general practitioner or an ob/gyn. Once I'm in the hospital, I think I have to take what I can get. At least that was my experience when I had my kids.

I think you can speak up on a situational basis but the hospital should not be honoring race requests.

Danifo's picture
Joined: 09/07/10
Posts: 1377

If I knew that one of my patients felt that negatively about me, I would not want to care for them. Enough bad/scary stuff can happen in a NICU that I would be paranoid they would blame me/complain about me and really affect my job.

I don't know if the hospital should have given in to him but I think the nurse should have been informed immediately and had some input to the decision.

Joined: 03/08/03
Posts: 3189

I would certainly let the nurse know that the parent was a racist and had issues, and let her/him make the decision at that point. But the hospital supporting a racist is unacceptable to me.

Joined: 08/17/04
Posts: 2226

I definitely get your point Laurie and how you think the hospital is backing up the discrimination. My concern is, losing my ability to request a particular nurse/doctor or what type of nurse/doctor I want and the hospital saying no even if it is feasible.

I also agree that I would never make any decision like that if it was emergent. I prefer a female ob/gyn like I said but...during delivery I didn't care who walked in. I just prefer talking to women during my routine and problem visits.

Joined: 03/08/03
Posts: 3189

"Jessica80" wrote:

I definitely get your point Laurie and how you think the hospital is backing up the discrimination. My concern is, losing my ability to request a particular nurse/doctor or what type of nurse/doctor I want and the hospital saying no even if it is feasible.

I also agree that I would never make any decision like that if it was emergent. I prefer a female ob/gyn like I said but...during delivery I didn't care who walked in. I just prefer talking to women during my routine and problem visits.

I thought we were talking about hospitals, though. I have only been in hospitals to have babies, or surgery, or get treated for some specific problem vs. choosing a doctor that I deal with regularly. In my personal experience (for whatever that's worth), once I hit the hospital I don't get to pick & choose who I am treated by, although the doctor I booked the procedure with comes to take care of that.

Am I missing something? Do people go to hospitals for check-ups and regular visits? Because then you could book in advance with a specific person, no?

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6561

"freddieflounder101" wrote:

I thought we were talking about hospitals, though. I have only been in hospitals to have babies, or surgery, or get treated for some specific problem vs. choosing a doctor that I deal with regularly. In my personal experience (for whatever that's worth), once I hit the hospital I don't get to pick & choose who I am treated by, although the doctor I booked the procedure with comes to take care of that.

Am I missing something? Do people go to hospitals for check-ups and regular visits? Because then you could book in advance with a specific person, no?

When you have a baby in the NICU, you can be there for weeks and even months. That nurse is with your child on a very small ratio of a few babies to one nurse. The NICU experience is very difficult, dealing with a nurse that you do not like makes a very difficult situation more difficult. It is my experience, that both in a NICU experience or any hospital experience you can request a different nurse. If another nurse is not available, that you are out of luck, but you can always at least request someone else.

When Caitlyn was in the NICU one her nurses was from the Philippines. I had a hard time understanding her English. It had nothing at all to do with the color of her skin, just my not being able to understand her. I did not request a different nurse, but I could have understood someone else wanting to request someone else.

Joined: 03/08/03
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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

When you have a baby in the NICU, you can be there for weeks and even months. That nurse is with your child on a very small ratio of a few babies to one nurse. The NICU experience is very difficult, dealing with a nurse that you do not like makes a very difficult situation more difficult. It is my experience, that both in a NICU experience or any hospital experience you can request a different nurse. If another nurse is not available, that you are out of luck, but you can always at least request someone else.

When Caitlyn was in the NICU one her nurses was from the Philippines. I had a hard time understanding her English. It had nothing at all to do with the color of her skin, just my not being able to understand her. I did not request a different nurse, but I could have understood someone else wanting to request someone else.

I think you should be able to request a different nurse because of the care they are giving or the communication (as you mentioned) or the relationship you have with them, but the hospital should NOT consider skin color a valid reason to honor a request. I just can't see how that's acceptable at all, under any circumstances.

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

Yep, I'm 100% with Laurie on this one. If the patient then wants to refuse care, they can sign an AMA waiver and be done with it. A hospital should never support race backed hatred. Ditto if someone refused to work with an effeminate seeming male. Not okay.

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
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The father's request was discrimination. Transferring a nurse to a different patient because the first patient asked for it is not. Bottom line, you shouldn't need to give a reason to request a different caregiver, and no one should be able to say someone else's reason for such a request isn't good enough. If she wants to sue someone, she should sue the father, not the hospital.

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

I disagree. Its a hospital. If someone is able and willing to treat you and refuse their care I don't believe that the hospital is responsible to cater to your whims. You should be left untreated and then be charged with criminal neglect should anything happen to your child because of your refusal of treatment. What if the NICU only had african american nurses that day? You believe that the hospital should call someone in from home to treat their special white baby? No way.

ftmom's picture
Joined: 09/04/06
Posts: 1538

I dont know. He has the right to be racist. But the hospital that acted on that racism, isnt that what discrimination is, ACTING on racist beliefs?

I am actually pretty torn on this one, because I would rather they move her because he didnt like her skin colour, then he request she is moved because he claimed she wasnt doing a good job, when really it was because of her skin colour. One sucks and is racist, but the other could have an effect on her career which wouldnt be fair.

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 4100

"Potter75" wrote:

I disagree. Its a hospital. If someone is able and willing to treat you and refuse their care I don't believe that the hospital is responsible to cater to your whims. You should be left untreated and then be charged with criminal neglect should anything happen to your child because of your refusal of treatment. What if the NICU only had african american nurses that day? You believe that the hospital should call someone in from home to treat their special white baby? No way.

Should they call someone else in? Of course not. If there was no one else available, then he can make the decision of whether to accept who is there, or go somewhere else. But if there are other capable people who can be moved around, then I have no problem with it. I got frustrated with the nurse who couldn't place an IV in my arm in three tries and told her to go get someone else. Are you saying that I should have been discharged because I refused treatment? That's ridiculous. I wasn't refusing treatment, I was refusing to be treated BY HER, which is my legal right. The only reason race is an issue here is because the father said it was. It doesn't matter what his reason was, if she was wearing Mickey Mouse scrubs and he's boycotting Disney, he still has the right to request a different nurse and the hospital has an obligation to try to accomodate his request.

mom3girls's picture
Joined: 01/09/07
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"Potter75" wrote:

I disagree. Its a hospital. If someone is able and willing to treat you and refuse their care I don't believe that the hospital is responsible to cater to your whims. You should be left untreated and then be charged with criminal neglect should anything happen to your child because of your refusal of treatment. What if the NICU only had african american nurses that day? You believe that the hospital should call someone in from home to treat their special white baby? No way.

Leaving someone untreated because they request (or demand) a change in care is ridiculous (and criminal) We all have to remain in charge or our bodies and the choices made about them at all times. I do think this dad was a douche bag, and that his parenting needs to be looked at closely, but we cannot take away a patients right to choose their path of care

Joined: 05/31/06
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"Spacers" wrote:

Should they call someone else in? Of course not. If there was no one else available, then he can make the decision of whether to accept who is there, or go somewhere else. But if there are other capable people who can be moved around, then I have no problem with it. I got frustrated with the nurse who couldn't place an IV in my arm in three tries and told her to go get someone else. Are you saying that I should have been discharged because I refused treatment? That's ridiculous. I wasn't refusing treatment, I was refusing to be treated BY HER, which is my legal right. The only reason race is an issue here is because the father said it was. It doesn't matter what his reason was, if she was wearing Mickey Mouse scrubs and he's boycotting Disney, he still has the right to request a different nurse and the hospital has an obligation to try to accomodate his request.

They don't have an obligation to discriminate at someone's request, IMO. And yes, I asked a DR to leave my sons room after he told me he was not on a medication that he was, in fact, on. When there is a legitimate issue, for instance, poor care, such a request should be made. Do patients have the right to act entitled and do things like demand care change due to a color scrubs, or worse, a color of skin? No, in my opinion.

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

"mom3girls" wrote:

Leaving someone untreated because they request (or demand) a change in care is ridiculous (and criminal) We all have to remain in charge or our bodies and the choices made about them at all times. I do think this dad was a douche bag, and that his parenting needs to be looked at closely, but we cannot take away a patients right to choose their path of care

Someone choosing to go untreated by able capable help because they are a racist is their choice. We do NOT have the right to make choices about our bodies at all times. If you were unconscious and taken into a hospital you think that you are in charge of the color of the skin of the person treating you? Nyet. Its a cute first world entitlement theory, except that it doesn't always work that way. Again, you thinking that its criminal confuses me, they tried to treat him and he is refusing treatment. Again, what lengths does the hospital have to go to to accomidate racism in your world? Call in white Dr's for the racist patient? What then happens in a situation where a white nurse is not on shift, in your world where we are at all times in charge?

Joined: 03/08/03
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"Spacers" wrote:

Should they call someone else in? Of course not. If there was no one else available, then he can make the decision of whether to accept who is there, or go somewhere else. But if there are other capable people who can be moved around, then I have no problem with it. I got frustrated with the nurse who couldn't place an IV in my arm in three tries and told her to go get someone else. Are you saying that I should have been discharged because I refused treatment? That's ridiculous. I wasn't refusing treatment, I was refusing to be treated BY HER, which is my legal right. The only reason race is an issue here is because the father said it was. It doesn't matter what his reason was, if she was wearing Mickey Mouse scrubs and he's boycotting Disney, he still has the right to request a different nurse and the hospital has an obligation to try to accomodate his request.

I disagree. The minute he said it was race, he put it on the table as the reason, and the hospital is under an obligation to protect its employees and not discriminate due to race. The hospital is at fault for discrimination.

And I think if you have a complaint about how you are being treated, you do what you can, but how can hospitals be constantly shifting staff around because of someone's random request? It's one thing if there is a real issue but if I say "I don't like that person's jokes" I shouldn't be able to change who is assigned to what floors, rooms, and patients. How is a hospital supposed to function like that?

GloriaInTX's picture
Joined: 07/29/08
Posts: 4116

I can understand maybe the initial reaction just because they probably were a little confused about how to handle the circumstances. But once the hospital administration got involved they should have immediately told him that he could not request the race of the nurse, and if that is what he wanted he would need to find a different hospital. They followed these instructions for almost a month that no African-American nurse was to treat his child. That was unacceptable.

mom3girls's picture
Joined: 01/09/07
Posts: 1535

"Potter75" wrote:

Someone choosing to go untreated by able capable help because they are a racist is their choice. We do NOT have the right to make choices about our bodies at all times. If you were unconscious and taken into a hospital you think that you are in charge of the color of the skin of the person treating you? Nyet. Its a cute first world entitlement theory, except that it doesn't always work that way. Again, you thinking that its criminal confuses me, they tried to treat him and he is refusing treatment. Again, what lengths does the hospital have to go to to accomidate racism in your world? Call in white Dr's for the racist patient? What then happens in a situation where a white nurse is not on shift, in your world where we are at all times in charge?

He didnt choose to go untreated, he made a request to have a different nurse. Very different in my opinion. If he had said "if that nurse touches my baby, I am out of here with the baby" then I would agree with you. When my sister was in labor she had a nurse that didnt wear deodorant, she requested a different nurse, the hospital refused.
Again, I totally disagree with this guy's reasoning. But I do believe that if we are conscious then we should have a say in our care.

Joined: 03/08/03
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"mom3girls" wrote:

He didnt choose to go untreated, he made a request to have a different nurse. Very different in my opinion. If he had said "if that nurse touches my baby, I am out of here with the baby" then I would agree with you. When my sister was in labor she had a nurse that didnt wear deodorant, she requested a different nurse, the hospital refused.
Again, I totally disagree with this guy's reasoning. But I do believe that if we are conscious then we should have a say in our care.

But should you have a say in your care if it's racial discrimination? Doesn't the hospital have better things to do than move people around because of someone's racism? Why should they be required to discriminate because someone asks them to?

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6561

"freddieflounder101" wrote:

But should you have a say in your care if it's racial discrimination?

IMO yes, you have a right to request a different nurse/doctor for any reason. The hospital also has the right to say no, that there is no one else at this time or that that can not accommodate at that time, but you should always have the right to request someone else. Understand, I think that is a horrible reason to not want someone as your nurse, but if you are paying half a million dollars to have your baby in the NICU, you should be able to ask for someone that you are comfortable with.

GloriaInTX's picture
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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

IMO yes, you have a right to request a different nurse/doctor for any reason. The hospital also has the right to say no, that there is no one else at this time or that that can not accommodate at that time, but you should always have the right to request someone else. Understand, I think that is a horrible reason to not want someone as your nurse, but if you are paying half a million dollars to have your baby in the NICU, you should be able to ask for someone that you are comfortable with.

In this case they should have no, like they eventually did. They should have told him if he could find another hospital that would accomodate his request that they would do everything in their power to transfer the baby safely to that location. At that point he would probably have realized that no hospital would comply with that request and backed down. And if not and he did find another hospital that would do that more power to him transfer the baby at his expense.

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

IMO yes, you have a right to request a different nurse/doctor for any reason. The hospital also has the right to say no, that there is no one else at this time or that that can not accommodate at that time, but you should always have the right to request someone else. Understand, I think that is a horrible reason to not want someone as your nurse, but if you are paying half a million dollars to have your baby in the NICU, you should be able to ask for someone that you are comfortable with.

And this attitude is a huge reason for multiple problems in our country. When we start saying "when you are lucky enough to have insurance paying for your child to be taken care of by world class Dr's in a world class hospital you should be GRATEFUL for qualified care instead of indulging every racist or otherwise ridiculous request by every entitled parent" perhaps things will get a little more balanced in this country. Sorry, but just because octomom chose to stuff her uterus full of babies who need NICU care or people who chronically deliver preemies and choose to keep having them get extended NICU stays the idea that you somehow get to handpick the care you get 100% of the time is nothing short of bratty.

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6561

Having a baby in the NICU is an extremely difficult time. Emotions are fried. Now, I think not wanting a nurse because they are not white is terrible. That said, your NICU nurse is the one who decides if and when you can touch your baby, the one who decides if you can see your baby, the one who is caring for your baby. If that person makes you uncomfortable or you have a personality conflict you need to be able to request someone else. It does not matter what the reason is you are uncomfortable, you need to have a good relationship and the nurse needs to be able to have a good relationship with you. The nurse also has to be comfortable with the family of the patient. When Caitlyn was in the NICU we brought all of the nurses a big bag of candy. You want your child to be the child that the nurses are all going above and beyond to make sure is ok. I am sure no professional nurse would give inferior care knowingly, but subconsciously after it is well known that the parents of that baby are raciest and requested to have a different nurse, subconsciously that baby might not get the same care through no fault of the baby.

ftmom's picture
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"Potter75" wrote:

And this attitude is a huge reason for multiple problems in our country. When we start saying "when you are lucky enough to have insurance paying for your child to be taken care of by world class Dr's in a world class hospital you should be GRATEFUL for qualified care instead of indulging every racist or otherwise ridiculous request by every entitled parent" perhaps things will get a little more balanced in this country. Sorry, but just because octomom chose to stuff her uterus full of babies who need NICU care or people who chronically deliver preemies and choose to keep having them get extended NICU stays the idea that you somehow get to handpick the care you get 100% of the time is nothing short of bratty.

Except that is not what she was saying. She clearly stated that the hospital has the right to say no, but that you have the right to request any stupid thing you want. I agree with her. I dont think the father is to blame here (though I do think he is a racist jerk). The hospital should have said no, or we will do what we can, but cant guarantee anything. But he did have the right to ask.

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

Being in the hospital is an incredibly trying time. Having a baby in the hospital is incredibly trying. Dealing with cancer or leukemia, very trying. None of those difficulties make discrimination okay OR make an attitude of "I should get whatever I PAY FOR and whatever I want" okay, IMO.

Joined: 05/31/06
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"ftmom" wrote:

Except that is not what she was saying. She clearly stated that the hospital has the right to say no, but that you have the right to request any stupid thing you want. I agree with her. I dont think the father is to blame here (though I do think he is a racist jerk). The hospital should have said no, or we will do what we can, but cant guarantee anything. But he did have the right to ask.

Where did I say he didn't?

And yes, people can request whatever they want, but the idea that they get to handpick their care 100% of the time is incredibly entitled, the idea that a hospital should further be somehow indebted to them because of the insurance money they are paying is more entitled.

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Joined: 08/22/06
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I believe that a poor person should get the same care that a millionaire should. I do however, believe that the in a hospital situation the patient is the employer and the hospital/staff is the employee. As a patient (or parent of the patient) you have to be able to take charge of your own care.

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

I believe that a poor person should get the same care that a millionaire should. I do however, believe that the in a hospital situation the patient is the employer and the hospital/staff is the employee. As a patient (or parent of the patient) you have to be able to take charge of your own care.

Turning down qualified care for no reason other than a whim or racism (as people on this thread have stated is fine) is not taking charge, its being petulant.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Turning down qualified care for no reason other than a whim or racism (as people on this thread have stated is fine) is not taking charge, its being petulant.

My understanding was that he did not turn down care, he asked for a different nurse. If you were in the hospital and your nurse was being obnoxious and you requested a different nurse does that mean you are refusing care? I understand you disagree with his reasons, so do I, but it does not mean he rejected care.

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"Potter75" wrote:

Where did I say he didn't?

And yes, people can request whatever they want, but the idea that they get to handpick their care 100% of the time is incredibly entitled, the idea that a hospital should further be somehow indebted to them because of the insurance money they are paying is more entitled.

But where did anyone say this? Maybe I missed it?

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

My understanding was that he did not turn down care, he asked for a different nurse. If you were in the hospital and your nurse was being obnoxious and you requested a different nurse does that mean you are refusing care? I understand you disagree with his reasons, so do I, but it does not mean he rejected care.

He refused to allow that AA nurse to touch his baby. Yes, that is refusing her care. The nurse wasn't being obnoxious, unless you consider being black obnoxious, so I don't understand how you are comparing the two. My son recently needed emergency surgery. The they don't staff pediatric ENT, so the one on call had to be called in to perform the emergency surgery. He happened to be a white older gentleman. Because my sons condition was critical he could not be transferred, and that was the only pediatric ENT surgeon on call that night. I do not believe that just because you consider me the employer in this situation I had the right to refuse his care because, say, I hated old people. And I believe that if the delay in the hospital trying to allow for my discrimination had caused my child harm, I should have been charged with a crime. I don't believe that nurses are less important than Dr's and I don't believe that being discriminatory against black people is different from being discriminatory against old people. And I don't believe that hospitals should cater to either brand of discrimination, ever. The patient can leave if that is not okay with them. THe patient then assumes the risk of leaving AMA, IMO.

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"ftmom" wrote:

But where did anyone say this? Maybe I missed it?


Bottom line, you shouldn't need to give a reason to request a different caregiver, and no one should be able to say someone else's reason for such a request isn't good enough

Bonita I think?

IMO yes, you have a right to request a different nurse/doctor for any reason.

Spacers, I think?

It doesn't matter what his reason was, if she was wearing Mickey Mouse scrubs and he's boycotting Disney, he still has the right to request a different nurse and the hospital has an obligation to try to accomodate his request.

Spacers

but if you are paying half a million dollars to have your baby in the NICU, you should be able to ask for someone that you are comfortable with.

Bonita

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"Potter75" wrote:

He refused to allow that AA nurse to touch his baby. Yes, that is refusing her care. The nurse wasn't being obnoxious, unless you consider being black obnoxious, so I don't understand how you are comparing the two. My son recently needed emergency surgery. The they don't staff pediatric ENT, so the one on call had to be called in to perform the emergency surgery. He happened to be a white older gentleman. Because my sons condition was critical he could not be transferred, and that was the only pediatric ENT surgeon on call that night. I do not believe that just because you consider me the employer in this situation I had the right to refuse his care because, say, I hated old people. And I believe that if the delay in the hospital trying to allow for my discrimination had caused my child harm, I should have been charged with a crime. I don't believe that nurses are less important than Dr's and I don't believe that being discriminatory against black people is different from being discriminatory against old people. And I don't believe that hospitals should cater to either brand of discrimination, ever. The patient can leave if that is not okay with them. THe patient then assumes the risk of leaving AMA, IMO.

A baby that is relatively stable is different than an emergency situation. I do not agree that it is different than someone being obnoxious. No I do not consider being black as being obnoxious. However, either you have the right to request a different nurse or doctor or you do not. In an emergency situation you are going to have to deal with whatever medical personal is available to you. In a non-emergency situation I believe it is common place to request a different nurse or doctor for all sorts of reasons. As I said, the hospital has every right to say no, we can not accommodate your request at this time, but you can still ask. That is not the same as denying care.

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Melissa - I think I poorly expressed what I was trying to say. It does not matter the amount of money you are paying for that care you receive in the hospital, you are still paying for it. If you went to a department store and were looking to buy something and you were unhappy with your sales associate, would you find it odd to request a different associate? It would not matter the reason you wanted someone different, if the boss/owner wanted your business they would do their best to accommodate you. I used the figure of a half million dollars because I know that is how much a few weeks in the NICU costs. There are so many people that think "well I am a lowly person and my doctor is SO smart, how dare I question anything they say", when in reality you know your own body and your children more than any doctor. You also care more about you and your children more than the doctor does. It is your job to speak up for youself to make sure your rights are being heard. It is not for the hospital to say "Well this is the nurse you are getting, if you do not like it go somewhere else", if that is the case for requesting a black nurse, it is also the case for requesting one that speaks clear English, one that is a woman/man, one that does not have an abrasive personality, one that does not wear deodorant, or any other number of reasons. You either are in charge of your own care or you are not.

Again, just to re-iterate, I think racism is horrible and my heart breaks for anyone on the receiving end of that situation. I do not however, think it serves anyone to have a nurse keep serving a patient that does not want him or her there.

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