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  1. #91
    Posting Addict Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ethanwinfield View Post
    Are we talking the acceptance of sex outside of marriage? Because that's been a main plot on many a tv show and movie. The entire soap indrusty is built around that concept. It would follow that the acceptance of gays is going to take tv shows and movies portraying homosexuals accurately: the same as all other people with the sole exception of who they attracted to sexually.
    Yes!

    Also Gloria, I think that the fight for rights and the fight for acceptance are really tangled up together. You want to deny them rights because you don't accept them....on an individual level, I think it's totally fine to "not accept" anyone you want. You don't accept me either, and that's fine, I'm not going to come picket your house over it. In other words, we don't all have to agree or even like each other. But when that "non-acceptance" then translates to people being treated differently under the law, that is where you are going to see huge push backs, because the official story is that we are all supposed to be equal in this country. That's where we are at now with gay people - they still face a ton of discrimination UNDER THE LAW and the rest of us are going to hear about it until it's fixed, as we should. After that, it's up to individuals to decide for themselves who they want to accept and who they don't. No law can change that.
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    Yes!

    Also Gloria, I think that the fight for rights and the fight for acceptance are really tangled up together. You want to deny them rights because you don't accept them....on an individual level, I think it's totally fine to "not accept" anyone you want. You don't accept me either, and that's fine, I'm not going to come picket your house over it. In other words, we don't all have to agree or even like each other. But when that "non-acceptance" then translates to people being treated differently under the law, that is where you are going to see huge push backs, because the official story is that we are all supposed to be equal in this country. That's where we are at now with gay people - they still face a ton of discrimination UNDER THE LAW and the rest of us are going to hear about it until it's fixed, as we should. After that, it's up to individuals to decide for themselves who they want to accept and who they don't. No law can change that.
    And that is really the core of the problem. They are tangling it up together and asking us to accept them. Phil Robertson didn't say a word about anyone's rights, he wasn't even discussing marriage or anything like that he was merely discussing sin according to his faith. Yet look at the outcry from GLAAD. And then they wonder why we push back?

    "Phil and his family claim to be Christian, but Phil's lies about an entire community fly in the face of what true Christians believe," GLAAD spokesman Wilson Cruz responded in a statement.
    So GLAAD is now the spokesman for what true Christians believe? Really?

    Read more: ‘Duck Dynasty’ controversy over Phil Robertson’s*digs at homosexuality galvanizes partisan backlash* - NY Daily News
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  3. #93
    Posting Addict Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    And that is really the core of the problem. They are tangling it up together and asking us to accept them. Phil Robertson didn't say a word about anyone's rights, he wasn't even discussing marriage or anything like that he was merely discussing sin according to his faith. Yet look at the outcry from GLAAD. And then they wonder why we push back?
    Of course they're tangled up! It's not a weird coincidence that gays don't have equal rights, they don't have them because people have actively tried to block them for religious reasons! You don't accept them, so you actively campaign against them having the same rights as everyone else. The two are heavily correlated, if not outright cause and effect.
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  4. #94
    Posting Addict GloriaInTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    Of course they're tangled up! It's not a weird coincidence that gays don't have equal rights, they don't have them because people have actively tried to block them for religious reasons! You don't accept them, so you actively campaign against them having the same rights as everyone else. The two are heavily correlated, if not outright cause and effect.
    It's a catch 22 isn't it. Most people don't really care about whether they have the rights or not, but since they tie the rights to marriage which is an extremely important thing to religious people, it forces all the conservative Christians to oppose rights in order to keep the meaning of marriage to same. Where if they separated the two everyone would get along, but that isn't good enough for groups like GLAAD because they don't just want the rights they want everyone to accept it as normal behavior and not sin. No one really cares what gay people do in their bedrooms just like no one makes a big deal about heterosexuals who sleep together or live together. It is when they announce to the world that they aren't doing anything wrong and we should accept their version of Christianity that says things condemned in the Bible are ok that there is a problem.
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  5. #95
    Posting Addict Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    It's a catch 22 isn't it. Most people don't really care about whether they have the rights or not, but since they tie the rights to marriage which is an extremely important thing to religious people, it forces all the conservative Christians to oppose rights in order to keep the meaning of marriage to same. Where if they separated the two everyone would get along, but that isn't good enough for groups like GLAAD because they don't just want the rights they want everyone to accept it as normal behavior and not sin. No one really cares what gay people do in their bedrooms just like no one makes a big deal about heterosexuals who sleep together or live together. It is when they announce to the world that they aren't doing anything wrong and we should accept their version of Christianity that says things condemned in the Bible are ok that there is a problem.
    "They" (I assume by "they" you mean gay people?) didn't tie rights to marriage. The government did that their ownselves.

    See, and they wouldn't need to try to sway public opinion if it didn't seem that their access to their rights were tied up to public opinion. I really do think that the majority of this issue will be solved when gay people have equal rights across the board. Right now, they still have to care what the majority of Americans think since they can't seem to get justice and equality by default like the rest of us. Some day when they have equal rights, they won't have to care what anyone else thinks of them because that will just be someone's opinion and it won't affect their lives. Again, I liken it to atheism. If someone doesn't approve of me for my lack of religion.....oh well. I don't really care very much because that's just their opinion and we all have them. I have that luxury because other people's disapproval doesn't typically interfere with the way I live my day to day life. If other people's disapproval meant that I couldn't put my husband on my insurance or visit him in the hospital or a zillion other things that we have tied to marriage, then I'd be out stumping to change people's minds too. I suspect that in some way that is at the heart of the religious right's push against gay equality. I think some of the leaders of the movement at least realize that once gays have full rights and protections under the law, Conservative Christians won't have as much power over them because their opinion will be only that...their opinion. As it stands now, CC's are playing from a position of power where they can really make their disapproval be heard and felt and stay a big part of the conversation. Once gays have equal rights, no one is going to come to your churches and force you to sign affadavits saying that you are a-okay with gay people, it just won't matter that much whether you approve of them or not. It will be beside the point, like it is for those of us who are non-religious.
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  6. #96
    Posting Addict GloriaInTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    "They" (I assume by "they" you mean gay people?) didn't tie rights to marriage. The government did that their ownselves.

    See, and they wouldn't need to try to sway public opinion if it didn't seem that their access to their rights were tied up to public opinion. I really do think that the majority of this issue will be solved when gay people have equal rights across the board. Right now, they still have to care what the majority of Americans think since they can't seem to get justice and equality by default like the rest of us. Some day when they have equal rights, they won't have to care what anyone else thinks of them because that will just be someone's opinion and it won't affect their lives. Again, I liken it to atheism. If someone doesn't approve of me for my lack of religion.....oh well. I don't really care very much because that's just their opinion and we all have them. I have that luxury because other people's disapproval doesn't typically interfere with the way I live my day to day life. If other people's disapproval meant that I couldn't put my husband on my insurance or visit him in the hospital or a zillion other things that we have tied to marriage, then I'd be out stumping to change people's minds too. I suspect that in some way that is at the heart of the religious right's push against gay equality. I think some of the leaders of the movement at least realize that once gays have full rights and protections under the law, Conservative Christians won't have as much power over them because their opinion will be only that...their opinion. As it stands now, CC's are playing from a position of power where they can really make their disapproval be heard and felt and stay a big part of the conversation. Once gays have equal rights, no one is going to come to your churches and force you to sign affadavits saying that you are a-okay with gay people, it just won't matter that much whether you approve of them or not. It will be beside the point, like it is for those of us who are non-religious.
    I don't believe that at all. Because the gay rights activists won't be happy until it is a crime to even say homosexuality is wrong and declare it hate speech. I would venture to say there are even some people that post on this board that think speaking about homosexuality should be declared hate speech and Phil Robertson should go to jail or be fined for what he said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    I don't believe that at all. Because the gay rights activists won't be happy until it is a crime to even say homosexuality is wrong and declare it hate speech. I would venture to say there are even some people that post on this board that think speaking about homosexuality should be declared hate speech and Phil Robertson should go to jail or be fined for what he said.
    What?! A crime to even say homosexuality is wrong?

    I haven't heard of a single case of someone arrested/prosecuted or even sued for saying, "I believe adultery is wrong." Why would homosexuality be any different?
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    Posting Addict Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    Yeah, I don't buy that. It's not socially acceptable (in many circles) to say certain things (ex. "I hate black people.") but you're still allowed to say them without going to jail or being fined. I don't expect that homosexuality would ever be any different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    I don't believe that at all. Because the gay rights activists won't be happy until it is a crime to even say homosexuality is wrong and declare it hate speech. I would venture to say there are even some people that post on this board that think speaking about homosexuality should be declared hate speech and Phil Robertson should go to jail or be fined for what he said.
    You think people on this board are against free speech? Wow.

    Seriously, you can't deny that people are immensely and illogically frightened by the idea of gay people having the same rights as heterosexuals....or probably you can, because you don't even recognize the bigotry behind this desire. So that's okay. Merry Christmas.
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  10. #100
    Posting Addict GloriaInTX's Avatar
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