S/O "Give Uncle Freddy a Kiss"

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"LuckyMom" wrote:

ok well I didn't mean that anyone has to actively]/b] let this issue live in anyone's head 24/7 on the front burner to the point where it paralyzes them as a parent overall. It doesn't have to unless the parent allows it. But I do think and, and has been proven many times over, that there are people who refuse to think this type of thing will never touch them simply because they feel they have thoroughly explained in depth about good touch bad touch and stranger danger without considering or accepting the fact that there's a very good possibility that their child doesn't grasp the concept as it is explained simply because they are incapable of doing so. They learn mostly by example and IMV this type of game is just something that most parents should at least contemplate if for no other reason than more safety assurance for their child as well as the conditioning and conditional aspects. Even teens don't know how to totally distinguish right from wrong choices or develope a true or deeper sense of awareness in that area until their 20's after that part of the brain is fully developed. So no I don't think everyone should allow it to paralyze their parenting but I also don't think someone who does give some thought to this possibility in THEIR parenting shouldn't be called warped and a suggestion made that they need therapy for their opinion as well as in regards to the other issue of teaching them conditional love. There's no question in my mind that if the child applies this conditioning to h & g's, they will apply it in other ways also.
I have to disagree though about who wins......the baddies only win when/if they succeed with your child......you win by providing that healthy safe environment DESPITE them.

The bolded is not what Lillie is teaching her child and frankly it is rude of you to say that she is. Your implying that she only loves her child if they kiss her is ridiculous.

You guys are way extrapolating things, and interjecting personal issues (like attempted molestations) which lend nothing to the debate and really completely don't relate. Someone trying to grab your crotch (while sad) does not make you an expert on parenting to prevent child abuse. I think that you have drawn really really weird judgments and opinions on this one, and you should not be surprised that people are reacting as they are. It is a little weird.

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"Beertje" wrote:

You assume I didn't read what you wrote on other threads before responding to you. You don't know me to be able to (correctly) pass judgment on who I am or what I feel. Since you're going to school for counseling, you should be the first to agree with that, no? Asking questions also does not mean judging a parent for their choices. And I'm not your dear, so please don't talk like that.

Telling you what I do isn't assuming anything about what you do. You sit there accusing some one of elevating their childs risk of molestation, and act as if you know their childs interpretation of what they better than they do, labeling them black mailers. Maybe you just don't get how you come off and how negative words within a statement make the entire comment negative and very offensive. How much schooling have you had in my field? None right. At no point have I passed any judgement nor assumed anything. I have simply tried to KINDLY tell you that you're being rude and hurtful to a woman for something fun she does with her own children.

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"BFrantz" wrote:

Telling you what I do isn't assuming anything about what you do. You sit there accusing some one of elevating their childs risk of molestation, and act as if you know their childs interpretation of what they better than they do, labeling them black mailers. Maybe you just don't get how you come off and how negative words within a statement make the entire comment negative and very offensive. How much schooling have you had in my field? None right. At no point have I passed any judgement nor assumed anything. I have simply tried to KINDLY tell you that you're being rude and hurtful to a woman for something fun she does with her own children.

Show me one accusation. You won't find it. Asking questions is NOT accusing. No one has labeled anyone anything other than those that think I'm warped or need counseling. You certainly do judge without even knowing me. Do you think how you're writing is coming off optimistic? No, it's actually attacking once again. And no, you're not sounding kind at all. Actually, your writing comes off as encouraging people to mock. How is that kind? You have no clue where I work, what I do, what my experiences have been, what my education has been or what I know about this field. To make such statements to invalidate sincere questions is passing judgment and assuming that I know nothing of what I'm talking about. Did it dawn on you that you may be putting tone into the questions that really aren't there?

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She wasn't talking about her parenting, she was questioning mine Lucky.

Beetrje, all done. I don't really care what you think and I feel like I've answered your questions more than enough. If you think the game I play with my son will lead to him being molested, I will try to make you feel better on that point. We're pretty isolated due to our military moves and there really isn't much opportunity for our son to be alone with anyone besides us. For him to feel comfortable enough to tell people no consistently (even Mom and Dad) when asked for hugs and kisses means that he does (despite being 3) understand that he's allowed to do so. We will probably never be in a situation where anything bad could really happen to my son as we don't trust a lot of people with him at all.

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"Beertje" wrote:

Show me one accusation. You won't find it. Asking questions is NOT accusing. No one has labeled anyone anything other than those that think I'm warped or need counseling. You certainly do judge without even knowing me. Do you think how you're writing is coming off optimistic? No, it's actually attacking once again. And no, you're not sounding kind at all. Actually, your writing comes off as encouraging people to mock. How is that kind? You have no clue where I work, what I do, what my experiences have been, what my education has been or what I know about this field. To make such statements to invalidate sincere questions is passing judgment and assuming that I know nothing of what I'm talking about. Did it dawn on you that you may be putting tone into the questions that really aren't there?

I'm not going to spend time going back and showing you, plenty of other people have done that multiple times since you made you inflammatory statements. I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but I haven't said you are warped or need counseling, because first of all only you can decide you need counseling, and being warped is a matter of ones own mind. I haven't encouraged anyone to be rude to you nor attack you, anyone doing that is on their own, if I wanted to be rude or attack you believe me when I say you would clearly see it. I'm most certainly not being optimistic, telling you that you are being rude and hurtful is being honest, I don't know the woman you were speaking to, but I am glad that you have stopped biting at her even if it means you are trying to bite at me now. Lucky for you, I don't really mind. I'd prefer you attacked me and accused me of doing something to you than attack and accuse her of doing harm to her child.

I've been in my field long enough to know when someone has attended any form of human services class. And regardless of what you think, I apply no tone to typed words, but thanks for assuming I do. I appreciate your thoughts.

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Enough of the back and forth, please. Debate the topic, not the person. This includes, but is not limited to, making disparaging comments about each other's education, profession, time spent on Preg.Org, or whatever. I have almost no patience for the meta-debate (where you stop debating the topic and start debating each other's debating.) It reminds me too much of every argument that I've ever had with my husband. Lol So cut it out, and get back on topic.

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"Potter75" wrote:

The bolded is not what Lillie is teaching her child and frankly it is rude of you to say that she is. Your implying that she only loves her child if they kiss her is ridiculous.

You guys are way extrapolating things, and interjecting personal issues (like attempted molestations) which lend nothing to the debate and really completely don't relate. Someone trying to grab your crotch (while sad) does not make you an expert on parenting to prevent child abuse. I think that you have drawn really really weird judgments and opinions on this one, and you should not be surprised that people are reacting as they are. It is a little weird.

I won't speak for Lucky, but I don't see her implying anything of what you suggest. I also see this game as a form of conditioning. The point that I see is that it doesn't matter what the intent the parent has, no matter how innocent it is, it's the perception the child has that matters. A parent can play a game, say it's a game, believe it to be a game only as a relationship builder between a parent and a child, but if a child perceives it as something normal that people do (and not limited to one or two parents) since they've witnessed grandma doing this, aunt, and uncle doing this, the perception is what continues to be carried forward despite what is being said by the parent. The action in itself speaks much louder than words.

If the child perceives that they won't get the object, action, or reward unless they give affection that the parent, grandparent, or whomever ask for and the object, action, or reward is important to the child, the child may comply because they perceive they won't get what they desire if they don't comply and their desire supersedes their own feelings of reciprocating affection. Just because a child complies does not automatically mean they're an active and willing participant of the game. They easily could perceive it as the parent making them do it or they wouldn't get the reward despite the parent thinking it's a game.

A parent can believe and say how beautiful their child is, etc. but if a child perceives they are not beautiful by a comment their peers made and believes that perception to be true since someone outside of family is saying it, it's the perception that overrides what the parent is saying, feeling, or doing. Their perception may not be brought up until much later when that perception has already been instilled as a belief about themselves. The perception could also be asked in openly questioning themselves and hearing some answers, but dismissing the answers because they may be convinced the parent is just saying that because they're the mom or dad, they're supposed to say things like that.

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"BFrantz" wrote:

I'm not going to spend time going back and showing you, plenty of other people have done that multiple times since you made you inflammatory statements. I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but I haven't said you are warped or need counseling, because first of all only you can decide you need counseling, and being warped is a matter of ones own mind. I haven't encouraged anyone to be rude to you nor attack you, anyone doing that is on their own, if I wanted to be rude or attack you believe me when I say you would clearly see it. I'm most certainly not being optimistic, telling you that you are being rude and hurtful is being honest, I don't know the woman you were speaking to, but I am glad that you have stopped biting at her even if it means you are trying to bite at me now. Lucky for you, I don't really mind. I'd prefer you attacked me and accused me of doing something to you than attack and accuse her of doing harm to her child.

I've been in my field long enough to know when someone has attended any form of human services class. And regardless of what you think, I apply no tone to typed words, but thanks for assuming I do. I appreciate your thoughts.

I assure you, you're way off base with me.

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"Beertje" wrote:

Another statement that has stuck in my head from a child who was sexually abused was that the sex abuse was a norm for them because they never knew that it should be something different. When being taught (or learning) affection could be "bought" or giving affection means getting rewarded, that is the norm for them because they knew of nothing different.

See, here is the problem. I see a vast difference between this occasional silly light hearted exchange:

"Mommy, can I have a cookie?"
"Hmmmmm.....let me see......I think I'm going to need a kiss first." *Tickles, giggles, kisses exchanged*

and teaching a kid that sex abuse is the norm, or even that affection can be bought. Otherwise, if my kid does something awesome and I say "Way to go!" and give him a hug, is that also him buying my affection? No, it's just parents being parents and loving their kids. The idea that you relate something as benign as the above to teaching a kid that sex abuse is the norm is what is offensive.

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"Alissa_Sal" wrote:

See, here is the problem. I see a vast difference between this occasional silly light hearted exchange:

and teaching a kid that sex abuse is the norm, or even that affection can be bought. Otherwise, if my kid does something awesome and I say "Way to go!" and give him a hug, is that also him buying my affection? No, it's just parents being parents and loving their kids. The idea that you relate something as benign as the above to teaching a kid that sex abuse is the norm is what is offensive.

If one gives their kid a hug despite how they do at a game and not considered a condition for the hug, the answer would be no because there is no bartering for affection there. If they hug only when they do something awesome? Yeah, that very well could be teaching them that they will get affection only when they perform well.

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"Beertje" wrote:

If one gives their kid a hug despite how they do at a game and not considered a condition for the hug, the answer would be no because there is no bartering for affection there. If they hug only when they do something awesome? Yeah, that very well could be teaching them that they will get affection only when they perform well.

Okay, but that is exactly what I'm saying. We don't only give/take kisses when the kid is asking for a cookie, and he doesn't only get cookies when he gives me a kiss. That's why I don't see it as "buying his affection" because the affection is always there between us. This is just a silly excuse to give one of 100 kisses that he gets in a day.

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Tracey, I still think you are misunderstanding the level, tone, and nature of what we're all talking about. No one is actually withholding things from their children unless kisses are delivered. It's not payment for services rendered. It's a jokey fun thing and things aren't truly withheld in the way you are thinking.

I think you raise a worthwhile question, but I also think you are missing the point of what most of us are talking about here. It's much more light-hearted and non-consequence-oriented than you are picturing.

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Exactly, Laurie.

No one is seriously suggesting that they only give their kids things if the "pay" them with a kiss first. Obviously, THAT would be damaging. But, that isn't what anyone is talking about. At all.

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"BFrantz" wrote:

Maybe .. you should head on over to the intro board there and read, the account is new, I on the other hand have been here since oh 2002. I don't assume anything, I read, and see what you are saying. Some one my dear is making assumptions here, but it most certainly isn't me. You're pretty bitter .. so maybe you would be happier digressing instead of attacking.

I am sorry, can you tell me where is the intro board? I must be missing something.

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"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

I am sorry, can you tell me where is the intro board? I must be missing something.

The Welcome/Help Center board is where I believe she is referring to. She did post an intro thread there. Also found there is our FAQ, Signature & Picture Guidelines, General Internet Safety sticky, and Login Issues sticky (though hopefully with the upgrades, there will be no more of those!).

However, it does tend to be used more by new members as it is a good place for them ask questions/figure out the boards. Most our longtime members probably don't often have a need to go there and/or overlook it.

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Thank you.

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