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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivergallery View Post
    I am ignoring the rudeness, and responding where I feel comfortable.. without falling into a personal attack. I am a scouter. Women can be leaders of scouts these days. I have attended scout camps and I do understand and know what goes on.
    I am glad you trust your husband. I trust mine also .
    So what does go on? I mean it, what are the issues that make it not okay for your kids to share a tent with the other boys? And why is it then okay for the other boys, who are presumably in your charge if you are a scout leader?

    I'm trying to get a handle on what the actual concern is.
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  2. #72
    Posting Addict Rivergallery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimPossible View Post
    Letting your kids grow up can feel dangerous. As they gain independence there are all sorts of dangers that they could be exposed to. I'm having a small debate elsewhere because one of my sitter applicants requested that she bring her mom to the interview. Now this kid was a college student and i thought it was totally inappropriate, but someone else said that they felt it would have been a reasonable request if the kid were in high school. Which i totally disagree with.

    Anyway, they proposed it was reasonable because of the risks involved. (They could be kidnapped by me, or i could lowball them salary wise were the two examples given)

    Kids get exposed to more risks as they get older, and in a boy scout camping situation...a structured, group environment, the risk of anything bad happening to your child is really very low.

    The fact that we are concerned about this supposed risk of homosexual children...and not the myriad of other things that could happen to your child while camping outside of ones supervision is bothersome to me.
    I do totally understand what you are saying. I think as parents we all have different levels of acclimating our children to adulthood. Each is different by location, social groups etc etc. I feel as long as the child is not being abused then the parent should ultimately decide how much their children is envolved in activities, and what activities, and with whom.

    I will give a little more personal background to our scouting experience.
    1- we live in a rural area.
    2- there is currently NO TROOP in our area.
    3- I served as the boys cubscout leader till I couldn't and the pack disbanded and my children wanted to stay in scouts so we are LONE SCOUTS.
    4- Lonescouts is similar in theory to homeschooling vs Boyscout TROOP as Public schooling.
    5- I would love to have my boys in a TROOP with a man leading it, but it isn't going to happen any time soon.
    6- By necessity I have gone to all their camping experiences because they have to be accompanied by an adult leader to attend.
    7 - While attending overnight scout camps it wasn't uncommon for the younger boys to sleep in the tent with their parent if their parent/grandparent was there... Remember this was for cubscouts age 8-9ish.. most of the 10 yo did not attend the cubscout camps we attended. 7 yo Tiger cubs are not typically at overnight scout camps, but day camps.. and when my boys were Tigers we went only to Day camps.
    --- My boys are just now 9 and 10 (my oldest just crossed over to Boyscouts). I do see a time coming where I would allow my sons to bunk with their mates...
    8- I attended church camp.. I remember my sister at 5th grade crying at night.. missing home.. I loved it.. but I also remember kids sneaking off to kiss/make out etc etc. This was a camp with males and females.. One of them I know was a homosexual but no one knew.
    9 - At any age, I do not want to set my children up for a fall.. does that make sense? I think by the time they are in highschool I might have more confidence in them, and allow them to do more than I am anticipating.. I hope so.. Don't we all? Don't we all want our children to do the BEST? Don't we all want them to make good choices and not contribute to their troubles?.. For each family this looks different... But I do not malign people that have different views.. It is ok that we think differently.. it is also ok we think our own way is right .
    DH-Aug 30th 1997 Josiah - 6/3/02 Isaac 7/31/03

  3. #73
    Posting Addict Rivergallery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddieflounder101 View Post
    So what does go on? I mean it, what are the issues that make it not okay for your kids to share a tent with the other boys? And why is it then okay for the other boys, who are presumably in your charge if you are a scout leader?

    I'm trying to get a handle on what the actual concern is.
    This gets into issues that are hard to discuss.. I have had to break up fights between my pack and other boys hurting them (luckily this was in the open and NOT in the tents/adarondacks.. sleeping quarters etc. I have had to deal with other packs boys pulling down their pants and showing their privates. I have had to deal with disgusting behavior by other children (not from my own children or those in my pack when I was leader).. In bathrooms, from poop being thrown, to discussing sexual behavior. I was not allowed in the bathrooms.. well I am a woman for one! I had to get my own group of children out of there by yelling and calling for a man to deal with it. I have had to deal with children making fun of boys in my pack (we had two autistic boys at one time.. one severely) Again this was not boys in my pack. When I was cubmaster I encouraged parents to attend.. This gave the autistic boys a way to not feel left out because they HAD to have someone with them.
    If there was a Troop/Pack that my boys could attend I would put them in it. If it was only the boys in my pack/troop in a tent it wouldn't matter to me.. as I trust the boys and parents.. and did trust the ones that were in my group. However.. when you have a smaller pack or troop you are thrown in with boys from other packs and troops, that are raised differently.. sometimes good sometimes bad, sometimes very very bad... Some of these boys are sent to camps all summer because their parents can't stand them.. some Boys are at this camp because they love scouting and uphold the scout oath/law etc.

    Each persons scouting experience is different.

    As to the OTHER boys in the pack when we went camping overnight.. ONLY one from my pack went with me and my sons.. but we traveled with another fairly local pack where I knew the leaders well, we had done hikes and clean-ups together.. And I trusted them with my children.. and I trusted their children around mine.. But even in joining with them, we still were a very small group and were put in with boys from urban areas that did not have the same sense of right/wrong our boys did. When there was issues we discussed them as adults first, then talked with the boys.. The one boy I took with my two. I called his mother and discussed the issue and asked what she would like us to do. There was no option to be able to put JUST my pack boys in a tent.. but I did think of it . And I would have done it if that was an option, as I trusted this other boy and his family.

    Sorry to be a little vague, but hopefully I explained it a bit better.
    DH-Aug 30th 1997 Josiah - 6/3/02 Isaac 7/31/03

  4. #74
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    Thanks for that.

    My husband grew up in Scouts and my son was in them for a while, we've never experienced anything like any of the behavior you describe. So hopefully it is not typical.

    Anyway I don't see how adding gay kids would change any of this one way or the other.
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  5. #75
    Prolific Poster ftmom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddieflounder101 View Post
    Kim -- the nanny we had for many years came to her first interview with her husband. He was simply not comfortable with her going into a complete stranger's house, and normally he would wait for her in the car, but with us he ended up coming in and I will be honest, he won us over as much as she did. It gave us a good sense of who they were as people. Normally I would have found such behavior chauvinistic but he is a gentle, tender soul -- he teaches junior high in the Bronx -- and it made us love them both. And I appreciated that he had safety concerns, you really don't know what you're getting.

    I wouldn't bring a PARENT to a job interview of any kind, though. Again...waiting outside in the car makes more sense.

    Anyway, like you, I do not understand why there is any ADDITIONAL concern brought on by gay scouts. Any of the fears that are there exist with or without the gay kids.
    There was a case recently in a nearby town where a guy took two other men on a test drive (he was selling his car) and they killed him. Total strangers.

    So I would totally understand not wanting your wife to go into a strangers home without you. But yea, parents should wait outside.
    Kyla
    Mom to Arianna (5), Conner (3) and Trent (my baby)

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddieflounder101 View Post
    Kim -- the nanny we had for many years came to her first interview with her husband. He was simply not comfortable with her going into a complete stranger's house, and normally he would wait for her in the car, but with us he ended up coming in and I will be honest, he won us over as much as she did. It gave us a good sense of who they were as people. Normally I would have found such behavior chauvinistic but he is a gentle, tender soul -- he teaches junior high in the Bronx -- and it made us love them both. And I appreciated that he had safety concerns, you really don't know what you're getting.
    That would TOTALLY be my husband. LOL
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  7. #77
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    Side question...for those that think it is okay for a husband/wife to go in but not a parent? What makes the difference?
    Mom to Elizabeth (6) and Corinne (4)

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimPossible View Post
    Letting your kids grow up can feel dangerous. As they gain independence there are all sorts of dangers that they could be exposed to. I'm having a small debate elsewhere because one of my sitter applicants requested that she bring her mom to the interview. Now this kid was a college student and i thought it was totally inappropriate, but someone else said that they felt it would have been a reasonable request if the kid were in high school. Which i totally disagree with.

    Anyway, they proposed it was reasonable because of the risks involved. (They could be kidnapped by me, or i could lowball them salary wise were the two examples given)

    Kids get exposed to more risks as they get older, and in a boy scout camping situation...a structured, group environment, the risk of anything bad happening to your child is really very low.

    The fact that we are concerned about this supposed risk of homosexual children...and not the myriad of other things that could happen to your child while camping outside of ones supervision is bothersome to me.
    I'll admit that my first thought was that it's weird to take a parent to a job interview, but it kind of makes sense since it's a nanny position. Her mom obviously has a lot more experience with kids, and with other parents, and might pick up on things (good *and* bad) that she might not. And she knows her daughter, too, so might help her keep from getting in over her own head. For example, if you've asked her to do some "light housework," her mom might remind her that she still has trouble picking up her own clothes & doing her own dishes, kwim?

    And I asked a co-worker whom I know to be gay and an Eagle Scout about his thoughts on the issue of the Scouts allowing gays. His reply was that Boy Scouts was the one place he felt safe, and where he felt normal. Boy Scouts was the one place where guys weren't asking who you were dating or how far you got with her, or what was wrong with you (are you gay????) if you weren't dating? He said he knew he was gay but it never came up with his pack at all. His Scout Leader was the first person he came out to because he trusted that man with his secret that he kept from his family for many more years.

    RG, I showed him what you wrote about your experience with scout camping, and he said nothing like that has EVER happened in his camping experience. He said the worst thing they did was put someone's hand in warm water to make them pee their bed. (I asked WTH a kid gets warm water in a camp at night, and he said you plan ahead & tuck a baggie in your pants to warm it!) He said the problem with your troop's experience was bad leaders, not gays. And he took great offense at your description of the problem boys being an "urban troop."
    The number of U.S. states in which a person can marry the person they love regardless of gender: 30 and counting!

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    Posting Addict ClairesMommy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ftmom View Post
    There was a case recently in a nearby town where a guy took two other men on a test drive (he was selling his car) and they killed him. Total strangers.

    So I would totally understand not wanting your wife to go into a strangers home without you. But yea, parents should wait outside.
    Tangent, but did a similar case to the Tim Bosma one happen in BC? Frik.

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    Le sigh. If it isn't the gays its the blacks causing a ruckus and throwing poop. Happens every time.

    If a person showed up with their mom for an interview I would deem them not mature enough to watch my kids. I would, however, respect them for wanting to meet for the first time in a neutral location like a starbucks or somewhere public if they had never met you or anything. I have never hired a stranger (they have always been someone that was a friend of the family or a friends babysitter or someone who we knew already from the gym) but thats just good common sense. Waiting in the car would also be good sense. Sitting in on the interview? Not kosher for me.

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