The scouts!

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The scouts!

Today they decided to allow gay scouts.

Are scout leaders next?

if not, why is it okay for a gay kid to be a scout but not be able to be a troop leader once he's 18?

Joined: 08/17/04
Posts: 2226

I'm so excited that they lifted the ban on gay members. Now, onto gay leaders. I think and hope that's next.

I think not having gay leaders sends a conflicting message to all scouts.

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
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It doesn't make sense to me, either, but... it's baby steps. Blum 3 Hopefully they'll do the right thing soon & allow gay leaders, too. Gay boys need good, strong role models, too.

mommytoMR.FACE's picture
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The decision they made is better than nothing but still not good enough.

Joined: 05/31/06
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I'm thrilled. This is a HUGE win and a leap in the right direction. States are tripping over one another in their hurry to legalize gay marriage right now and now this.....its great.

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"Potter75" wrote:

I'm thrilled. This is a HUGE win and a leap in the right direction. States are tripping over one another in their hurry to legalize gay marriage right now and now this.....its great.

Other countries, too (legalizing gay marriage). So many in the last month. I am so glad to see the tides turning, although there has been a terrifying wave of anti-gay violence in NYC. People are beating up gay men in the west village, it's really scary.

KimPossible's picture
Joined: 05/24/06
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Definitely nothing bad with forward motion...i like forward motion.

I think its just a sign that everything will keep moving in that direction and its definitely gaining a lot of momentum as of late.

I'm curious to know if those who are on the other side of the debate also feel that this shift towards acceptance is going to continue. Not meaning themselves individually, but in regards to our society, laws, policies etc and what they feel is the likelihood that these changes are fairly permanent.

Rivergallery's picture
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"KimPossible" wrote:

Definitely nothing bad with forward motion...i like forward motion.

I think its just a sign that everything will keep moving in that direction and its definitely gaining a lot of momentum as of late.

I'm curious to know if those who are on the other side of the debate also feel that this shift towards acceptance is going to continue. Not meaning themselves individually, but in regards to our society, laws, policies etc and what they feel is the likelihood that these changes are fairly permanent.

I think the shift will continue and the changes are permanent. But I do not like the tone that "acceptance"=right.. there is much more going on here than a simple black and white answer on that. Smile

KimPossible's picture
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"Rivergallery" wrote:

I think the shift will continue and the changes are permanent. But I do not like the tone that "acceptance"=right.. there is much more going on here than a simple black and white answer on that. Smile

Well, sure, i agree. From my view its acceptance = right...so that was a little bit of bias showing through in the way i formed the question Smile

GloriaInTX's picture
Joined: 07/29/08
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It is the beginning of the end for the Boy Scouts. Most of the conservative members whose values the Scouts were built on will get out. Once that happens there will be no more opposition left for Gay Scout leaders and when that happens it will push even more people out. It wouldn't surprise me if they now change the Boy Scout oath and core values to match their new membership. I would be surprised if Boy Scout membership is 50% of what it is now within 5 years.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

It is the beginning of the end for the Boy Scouts. Most of the conservative members whose values the Scouts were built on will get out. Once that happens there will be no more opposition left for Gay Scout leaders and when that happens it will push even more people out. It wouldn't surprise me if they now change the Boy Scout oath and core values to match their new membership. I would be surprised if Boy Scout membership is 50% of what it is now within 5 years.

What makes you think there aren't a whole lot of gay accepting people who would like their kids to be boy scouts? I had Aodhan in boy scouts for a while and the only reason i stopped was just because of time constraints. I think the scouts have great things to offer boys if you get into the right kind of troop.

KimPossible's picture
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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

It is the beginning of the end for the Boy Scouts. Most of the conservative members whose values the Scouts were built on will get out. Once that happens there will be no more opposition left for Gay Scout leaders and when that happens it will push even more people out. It wouldn't surprise me if they now change the Boy Scout oath and core values to match their new membership. I would be surprised if Boy Scout membership is 50% of what it is now within 5 years.

What makes you think there aren't a whole lot of gay accepting people who would like their kids to be boy scouts? I had Aodhan in boy scouts for a while and the only reason i stopped was just because of time constraints. I think the scouts have great things to offer boys if you get into the right kind of troop.

AlyssaEimers's picture
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I believe we had this debate not too long ago. I am sure it varies by area, but here, most people that are bothered by this subject have long ago created their own separate groups. I do think there are plenty of people not bothered by the subject to keep the boy scouts alive.

Joined: 05/31/06
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I have lots of friends who have been boycotting the scouts (us included) who would now join. Not everyone quits a club just because it isn't allowed to be hateful anymore. Some people will join it for just that reason!

Joined: 08/17/04
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Hmmmm...I have a friend...Republican...church goer (former pg.org member) who has kept her boy OUT of scouts because of this ban and will now put him in and a several more liberal friends who have purposely kept them out for the same reason.

GloriaInTX's picture
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I'm sure there will be some new members. I just don't think it will be even close to the number of people who will be leaving. Time will tell.

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"Jessica80" wrote:

Hmmmm...I have a friend...Republican...church goer (former pg.org member) who has kept her boy OUT of scouts because of this ban and will now put him in and a several more liberal friends who have purposely kept them out for the same reason.

Yeah, my husband is republican (and an eagle scout) and I only switched from republican to independent about 18 months ago and we would not have let our kids participate while this ban was in place.

Numbers have been on the decline for five straight (no pun intended) years in a row (Scouting for All: Committed to Scouting, Open to Diversity. Working to end discrimination against gays, atheists, agnostics, other non-theists, and all other groups in the Boy Scouts of America.) and I can only hope that it has been because of people like us taking a moral stand against bigoted policies. I hope they grow with the new policy! I disagree with Gloria's doomsday prophesy.

KimPossible's picture
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Yeah, i think its fair to point out this is an alienating position. But their prior position was alienating as well. In both cases, there will be a group of people turned off by the policies.

But when it comes down to it 99.9999% of scouting has nothing to do with the issue of homosexuality vs. heterosexuality. And people actually like the activities and programs that they are offering to the kids on a regular basis.

I think its a bit...i don't know what the word is.... to think that will all just fall apart because conservative anti-homosexual people might no longer want to participate.

ClairesMommy's picture
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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

It is the beginning of the end for the Boy Scouts. Most of the conservative members whose values the Scouts were built on will get out. Once that happens there will be no more opposition left for Gay Scout leaders and when that happens it will push even more people out. It wouldn't surprise me if they now change the Boy Scout oath and core values to match their new membership. I would be surprised if Boy Scout membership is 50% of what it is now within 5 years.

The beginning of the end for the Intolerant Conservative Boy Scouts of America....Yes, could not agree more. And for the record, the Boy Scouts are hardly an American thing. And another thing, Lord B-P would roll over in his grave to know that homosexuals up until now have been repressed in the Scouts in any country at any time. Did you know that he was most likely GAY, Gloria? Did you know that? OMG, the founder of the Boy Scouts actually GAY????? And even if he wasn't, the civilized world outside of the US allows gays in Boy Scouts so why the heck should it matter what Conservatives in the US say about the impending decline of scouting? Please. The worldwide movement called the Boy Scouts will go on quite nicely without so much as a blip on the screen from squawking American Christian conservatives, and, the best part is that it will go on in the US too. Smile

GloriaInTX's picture
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Sure. It is a Canadian thing also. The membership roles have already dropped there. The same will happen here.

In 1998, Canadian Scouts (CS) decided to allow females, atheists, agnostics, homosexuals, bisexuals and transsexuals to join the CS. In 1999, they approved the establishment of an all-homosexual troop, which now marches in Canada’s “gay pride” parades. Within five years, scouting membership dropped over 50 percent. Many scouting camps and offices were closed, and staff was laid off.

LifeSiteNews Mobile | The Boy Scouts should learn the lessons of the Canadian Scouts

Their own poll predicts what will happen.

"The Scouts’ poll earlier this year asked members what would happen if the ban on gay men and boys was lifted," she reported, "and officials predicted 100,000 to 350,000 people would leave. A lift on both bans would likely bring 10,000 to 20,000 new youth, the group said."

Christianity Today Gleanings: Boy Scouts Lift Membership Ban on Gay Youths

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

It is the beginning of the end for the Boy Scouts. Most of the conservative members whose values the Scouts were built on will get out. Once that happens there will be no more opposition left for Gay Scout leaders and when that happens it will push even more people out. It wouldn't surprise me if they now change the Boy Scout oath and core values to match their new membership. I would be surprised if Boy Scout membership is 50% of what it is now within 5 years.

Sometimes I wish we had a "thumbs down" button in addition to the like.

We're another family who now will let our son join Boy Scouts, if he wants, because this ban is lifted. I don't care if the overall population of Boy Scouts drops, because I don't want my son hanging out with bigots anyway.

Joined: 05/31/06
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Great point in amidst the whackadoodles in the link Gloria provided. I quite clearly remember Lillie and others promising a mass exodus from the military with the repeal of DADT. Yeah..... Never happened. This won't either.

Joined: 03/08/03
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"The Scouts? poll earlier this year asked members what would happen if the ban on gay men and boys was lifted," she reported, "and officials predicted 100,000 to 350,000 people would leave. A lift on both bans would likely bring 10,000 to 20,000 new youth, the group said."

If that poll proves true, it's a very sad, bigoted, pathetic world we live in. Are people really that threatened by including gay kids?

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"Spacers" wrote:

Sometimes I wish we had a "thumbs down" button in addition to the like.

I frequent a forum that has a "Disagree" button. I LOVE it.

And the when you click these buttons (there are of them. Agree, Disagree, Educational, Interesting, Funny and Love) it is anonymous, only shows a tally of how many you have of each.

Its great for all you lurkers out there reading our debates. Too bad we don't have it here!

KimPossible's picture
Joined: 05/24/06
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In regards to people leaving....people are often hot headedly outspoken about change and threaten all kinds of stuff...but then out of those people, only a portion of them actually do it.

I'm really not worried. And honestly, If its not meant to be...then so be it. I'd rather have no boy scouts at all then a group that perpetuates such intolerance.

GloriaInTX's picture
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Nice. If everyone can't be included than no one should. People with religious beliefs are supposed to just cave and give the organization they built based on their moral values over to everyone else that believes differently.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Nice. If everyone can't be included than no one should. People with religious beliefs are supposed to just cave and give the organization they built based on their moral values over to everyone else that believes differently.

This is not about "religious beliefs". Many, many religious people, including Christians, have no trouble including gay kids. This is about prejudice at worst, and a lack of understanding at best. I know and love many religious people who would be appalled that someone calls being anti-gay a "religious belief".

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Yes! Please do NOT lump me (liberally religious) and my very conservative religious friends in with bigots. The two are very very different.

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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

This is not about "religious beliefs". Many, many religious people, including Christians, have no trouble including gay kids. This is about prejudice at worst, and a lack of understanding at best. I know and love many religious people who would be appalled that someone calls being anti-gay a "religious belief".

What exactly would you call a belief that is based on the Bible if not a religious belief?

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

What exactly would you call a belief that is based on the Bible if not a religious belief?

I know many people who follow the Bible and believe it is the word of God and are not anti-gay. People used to use the Bible to justify racism too, you know. It's not that people with religious beliefs are supposed to cave, but people with biased, prejudiced beliefs are supposed to cave, yes. I'm all for that.

ClairesMommy's picture
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If the haters are the reason why enrolment is DOWN, how on earth could that be a bad thing? I'd rather 100 open-minded members than 1000 with a few bigots thrown in. And as someone else already said, the numbers will surely grow now that gays and lesbians can feel free to join Scouts without fear of retribution.

GloriaInTX's picture
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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

I know many people who follow the Bible and believe it is the word of God and are not anti-gay. People used to use the Bible to justify racism too, you know. It's not that people with religious beliefs are supposed to cave, but people with biased, prejudiced beliefs are supposed to cave, yes. I'm all for that.

So those who skip over those parts of the Bible are following their religious beliefs but for the people who do follow those parts of the Bible it isn't a religious belief? ooookay makes sense to me.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

So those who skip over those parts of the Bible are following their religious beliefs but for the people who do follow those parts of the Bible it isn't a religious belief? ooookay makes sense to me.

What I'm saying is it's not that anyone (Scouts-wise) is having issues with people who are religious or have religious beliefs. But it is not okay to use those beliefs to be homophobic, any more than it is okay to use those beliefs to be racist. You call it their morality that keeps gay kids out; I call it their lack of morality. In a way the new rule is supporting those with religious beliefs, because so many of them think it's great and morally right to include gay kids.

Joined: 05/31/06
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Are you having the gay sex Gloria? Then you are obeying . Your fascination with how Young men self identify their sexuality is creepy. Your further need to then alienate and persecute and bully them says volumes about you. The sort of religious people I can identify with and am blessed to know are able to understand this giant glaring obvious fact. They show love to people even if they believe they are sinning, because they recognize that they sin as well. They are lovely people.

GloriaInTX's picture
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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

What I'm saying is it's not that anyone (Scouts-wise) is having issues with people who are religious or have religious beliefs. But it is not okay to use those beliefs to be homophobic, any more than it is okay to use those beliefs to be racist. You call it their morality that keeps gay kids out; I call it their lack of morality. In a way the new rule is supporting those with religious beliefs, because so many of them think it's great and morally right to include gay kids.

Disagreeing with something does not make you homophobic. I'm sorry you can't say it has nothing to do with religious beliefs because it most certainly does. If you say it supports others that have DIFFERENT religious beliefs it is still about religious beliefs.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Disagreeing with something does not make you homophobic. I'm sorry you can't say it has nothing to do with religious beliefs because it most certainly does. If you say it supports others that have DIFFERENT religious beliefs it is still about religious beliefs.

if that "something" is gay rights it most certainly does.

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Disagreeing with something does not make you homophobic. I'm sorry you can't say it has nothing to do with religious beliefs because it most certainly does. If you say it supports others that have DIFFERENT religious beliefs it is still about religious beliefs.

Disagreeing with some random something, no. Thinking gay kids should be kept out of scouts DOES make you homophobic. And my point is that the POLICY CHANGE is not about clashing with someone's religious beliefs. It may be a side effect if people's homophobia is rooted in religion, but this isn't about religion per se, because many religions including Christian ones (which is what the Boy Scouts have their origin in) do not advocate or support these anti-gay beliefs.

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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

Disagreeing with some random something, no. Thinking gay kids should be kept out of scouts DOES make you homophobic. And my point is that the POLICY CHANGE is not about clashing with someone's religious beliefs. It may be a side effect if people's homophobia is rooted in religion, but this isn't about religion per se, because many religions including Christian ones (which is what the Boy Scouts have their origin in) do not advocate or support these anti-gay beliefs.

IMO, many homophobes hide behind some effed up quasi-religious zealotry. It's easy to pass the buck of their own bigotry onto scripture and blame the Bible, when really religion has zippity-do to do with their hatred of gays and lesbians. Smile

GloriaInTX's picture
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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

Disagreeing with some random something, no. Thinking gay kids should be kept out of scouts DOES make you homophobic. And my point is that the POLICY CHANGE is not about clashing with someone's religious beliefs. It may be a side effect if people's homophobia is rooted in religion, but this isn't about religion per se, because many religions including Christian ones (which is what the Boy Scouts have their origin in) do not advocate or support these anti-gay beliefs.

Actually it doesn't. I don't fear or hate homosexuals. So it doesn't qualify under either definition.

ho?mo?pho?bi?a
[hoh-muh-foh-bee-uh] Show IPA

noun
unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward homosexuals and homosexuality.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Origin:
1955–60; homo(sexual) + -phobia

Related forms
ho?mo?pho?bic, adjective

Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, ? Random House, Inc. 2013.

World English Dictionary
homophobia (ˌhəʊməʊˈfəʊbɪə) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]
— n
intense hatred or fear of homosexuals or homosexuality

mom2robbie's picture
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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Sure. It is a Canadian thing also. The membership roles have already dropped there. The same will happen here.

LifeSiteNews Mobile | The Boy Scouts should learn the lessons of the Canadian Scouts

Did the article also mention the decrease in numbers of children period,. numbers are down for all children's activities. And I see lots of Scouts (and Girl Guides, but I am a leader) out doing things.

I am curious to why no gay leaders? Does BSA think that gay leaders are going to try and make the boys gay? Or are they still on the gays =pedophilia

I guess that I am so used to things here that I just don't understand why people are making a big deal about gay rights because in reality it is human rights.

ClairesMommy's picture
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So, you are just against homosexuality because the Bible tells you so? The immorality of being gay is something you are instructed to believe?

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"GloriaInTX" wrote:

Actually it doesn't. I don't fear or hate homosexuals. So it doesn't qualify under either definition.

If you don't fear them then what is your issue with having them in the Scouts?

Joined: 05/13/02
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Gloria, your religion makes me sad for you....I can't imagine living my life as a Christian like that, being so close-minded.

I'm very happy to hear the Boy Scouts got rid of the ban. My boys used to do Scouts, but we just didn't have the time for it this year. Our Pack is very open-minded...probably 1/2 of the boys in it were different religions, and some didn't practice any religion. It never mattered, because our Pack realized one doesn't have to be a Christian to be morally straight.

Rivergallery's picture
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Personally I would rather have gay leaders than gay boys.. Trouble is for me the camp outs. I would not allow my boys to camp out with girls, I would not want them camping out with homosexual boys. Same difference.. I do not want them to have to deal with sexual issues while on a camp out. I would and do hold leaders to a higher standard than children when it comes to PDA.. and with children things can get out of hand without an adult knowing fairly easily.. especially where adults are not allowed in tents etc.. just boys. It reduces the risk of adults abusing children but doesn't help with issues like bullying or children abusing each other, as there is no supervision. This is why for camp outs so far (cubscouts) we have NOT sent our children to camp without us.. We have gone with them, and they were not in the tents with other kids, but rather camped with us as parents.
We will continue it this way, though was hoping for something different our overnighters will probably remain at home or in homes of trusted family/friends.

My husband is upset about the whole issue and is considering us pulling our own children out of boyscouts completely, which is something more conservative families are probably also considering.

I do not see Gloria as hate-filled at all, and I do see sexual issues in general as a concern when raising children. I wouldn't let my children have a girl sleep over. Why would I allow them to have a homosexual boy? To me it is treating all sexual issues as equal.

Joined: 03/08/03
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My son has had his friend from across the street, a girl, sleep over. My son is 9. He has no interest in anything sexual. I know some kids do at that age but he really doesn't so I would not have a blanket rule. (He recently asked me what MAXIM was because it comes up on our Xbox and I said it was a grown-up man thing and when I mentioned pictures of sexy ladies he said, "Say no more! Not interested." Lol.)

Young gay boys are not running around having sex; mostly they are just confused and looking to find a way to fit in when they feel very different, even when they are doing their best to hide it.

Is bullying a problem on camping trips with scouts? Really? Don't they supervise them and also isn't part of the whole scouting thing to have decent behavior? If not then there are bigger reasons to re-think the scouts. I thought they were all about moral decency, that's one of the things I actually like about them.

Anyway Rivergallery the rule doesn't really change that sort of thing.....I suspect there were many closeted gay boys in the scouts already. If the real reason people are leaving scouts is because they think that camping will become some sort of sexual frenzy then this harkens back to the olden days when men used to be afraid that all gay men would hit on them. "Don't flatter yourself," my friends used to say.

ftmom's picture
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"Rivergallery" wrote:

Personally I would rather have gay leaders than gay boys.. Trouble is for me the camp outs. I would not allow my boys to camp out with girls, I would not want them camping out with homosexual boys. Same difference.. I do not want them to have to deal with sexual issues while on a camp out. I would and do hold leaders to a higher standard than children when it comes to PDA.. and with children things can get out of hand without an adult knowing fairly easily.. especially where adults are not allowed in tents etc.. just boys. It reduces the risk of adults abusing children but doesn't help with issues like bullying or children abusing each other, as there is no supervision. This is why for camp outs so far (cubscouts) we have NOT sent our children to camp without us.. We have gone with them, and they were not in the tents with other kids, but rather camped with us as parents.
We will continue it this way, though was hoping for something different our overnighters will probably remain at home or in homes of trusted family/friends.

My husband is upset about the whole issue and is considering us pulling our own children out of boyscouts completely, which is something more conservative families are probably also considering.

I do not see Gloria as hate-filled at all, and I do see sexual issues in general as a concern when raising children. I wouldn't let my children have a girl sleep over. Why would I allow them to have a homosexual boy? To me it is treating all sexual issues as equal.

I appreciate that your response seems thought out and not full of hate as so many can be on this issue. I wanted to point out though, that if a child sexually abuses another, it is most often a sign that the child has been abused himself, and has nothing to do with sexual orientation. So I dont see how this rule really changes things in that regard.

Joined: 03/08/03
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I also want to add that I had to do much soul searching to allow my son into the scouts because of their anti-gay policy. It was a difficult one for me but he really wanted to join, my husband had loved it as a kid, and my gay dad said "let him!" None of that attitude trickled down into our local scouts, as we're in a nice liberal area here.

So I'm guessing some of the conservatives will do what I did, and put their children's interests ahead of their own agendas. In the ultra conservative areas the gay kids will be too scared to come out of the closet anyway.

And my son ended up leaving the scouts, not because of anything but his own lack of motivation. Ah well.

Rivergallery's picture
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"freddieflounder101" wrote:

My son has had his friend from across the street, a girl, sleep over. My son is 9. He has no interest in anything sexual. I know some kids do at that age but he really doesn't so I would not have a blanket rule. (He recently asked me what MAXIM was because it comes up on our Xbox and I said it was a grown-up man thing and when I mentioned pictures of sexy ladies he said, "Say no more! Not interested." Lol.)

Young gay boys are not running around having sex; mostly they are just confused and looking to find a way to fit in when they feel very different, even when they are doing their best to hide it.

Is bullying a problem on camping trips with scouts? Really? Don't they supervise them and also isn't part of the whole scouting thing to have decent behavior? If not then there are bigger reasons to re-think the scouts. I thought they were all about moral decency, that's one of the things I actually like about them.

Anyway Rivergallery the rule doesn't really change that sort of thing.....I suspect there were many closeted gay boys in the scouts already. If the real reason people are leaving scouts is because they think that camping will become some sort of sexual frenzy then this harkens back to the olden days when men used to be afraid that all gay men would hit on them. "Don't flatter yourself," my friends used to say.

Gay Boys ARE running around having sex.. if you treat them the same as heterosexual boys.. Boyscouts starts at 10 1/2 and goes till you are 18 years old.

Adult leaders are not allowed into the tent with the boys.

Rivergallery's picture
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"ftmom" wrote:

I appreciate that your response seems thought out and not full of hate as so many can be on this issue. I wanted to point out though, that if a child sexually abuses another, it is most often a sign that the child has been abused himself, and has nothing to do with sexual orientation. So I dont see how this rule really changes things in that regard.

I do agree with you there regarding the abuse.. However at 18yo having sexual relations with a 15 yo would be considered Rape.

Joined: 05/31/06
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If this ban means that my kids and I am safe from having to interact with people who actually believe the things that rg and Gloria do- this ban is already wildly successful in my eyes.

Please, PLEASE pull your kids out of the wonderful organization that is the scouts before my kids have to hear about bigotry and get their first taste of intolerance and ignorance from adults and peers. I don't want them believing that their gay friends are all perverts who can't keep it in their pants. This isn't 1929. My lord.good riddance.

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

By the way- letting your kids be scouts then going on the scout trips and not allowing your kids to participate in the scouting activity (camping) but instead insisting that the boys sleep with mommy and daddy? NOT healthy. If your paranoia goes that deep it's affecting your kids ability to form normal relationships with their peers and setting them out to be outcasts. If your paranoia regarding young boys penises runs that deep why bother calling them scouts? Just say you enjoy family camping and don't set your kids up for ridicule. Jeez.

gay kids are not rapists because they are gay, and the gay is not transferable. This is all so confusing and scary to me. Just what are you so terrified of?

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