Sex in a Teenager's Room?

49 posts / 0 new
Last post
Alissa_Sal's picture
Joined: 06/29/06
Posts: 6427
Sex in a Teenager's Room?

Sex in a teenager

Is it an absolute given that parents of teenagers should object to their children's sex lives? In American culture, the answer is largely assumed to be that it is. The range of acceptable responses from parents to the news that their high-school-age children are sexually active is to rage angrily and forbid it or, at best, reluctantly provide contraception while emphasizing that you wish they wouldn't have sex. But what would happen if parents embraced another possibility and actually accepted their teenagers' sex lives, even going so far as to allow teenagers to have their boyfriend or girlfriend sleep over? After all, sleepovers will begin pretty much the second they walk out your door, so what's the harm in letting it start a little earlier?

These are the questions that Henry Alford addressed in the New York Times late last week, in a piece about how a handful of American parents are experimenting with giving respect to teenage relationships. He interviewed a couple of parents who allow sleepovers - and in one case, cohabitation - and found that they felt quite positive about the results. Parents reported that the experience taught their children values like responsibility and even that it subtly encouraged monogamy. Writing of one mother who allowed her high school senior's boyfriend to move in for a year, Alford notes:
[INDENT]But the greater dividend of his stay was that it gave Ms. Collins's three younger adolescent children a view of committed love that far surpassed most of what they had seen from adults. Ms. Collins said, "I hope they won?t settle for less."
[/INDENT]
Of course, there's no reason to stab around in the dark, just guessing at whether allowing teenage sleepovers is some kind of sign of the apocalypse or just a way for families to handle teenage sexuality in a responsible, realistic fashion. Sleepovers have been normalized in the Netherlands for decades now, and as social scientist Amy Schalet's research suggests, the results have been generally positive. By demonstrating acceptance and respect for their kids' relationships, Dutch parents, on average, enjoy more communication with their kids about sex and relationships than American parents do, which in turn means the kids are more likely to get the health care and education they need to prevent STIs and unwanted pregnancy. Oh, and the teenage pregnancy rate in the Netherlands is nearly four times lower than ours.

Schalet also discovered that the Dutch way helped minimize negative stereotyping about gender, love, and sexuality. In the U.S., there's a tendency to see sex as a battle between boys and girls, with parents falling for "the stereotype that all boys want the same thing, and all girls want love and cuddling." But because Dutch parents respect teenage relationships, they have a more holistic view, understanding that most young people of any gender want a combination of both.

Allowing sleepovers in not a license for licentiousness. If anything, the practice even tends to reinforce the idea that sex is about relationships, whereas sneaking around lays the groundwork for the hookup culture that has caused so much hand-wringing of late. Parents actually have the power to lay the groundwork for more responsible behavior about sexual health and relationship management while making sex a little less illicit. Might not be such a terrible idea.

Would you consider allowing your teenager to have their boyfriend or girlfriend sleepover? Other thoughts?

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6542

"Alissa_Sal" wrote:

Would you consider allowing your teenager to have their boyfriend or girlfriend sleepover? Other thoughts?

DH and I dated as teenagers. While we did not have sex while dating, I did occasionally spend the night at his house if for some reason his parents could not take me home such as bad weather or car problems. (Bad weather in WNY is common) We did sleep in separate rooms while there, but no one checked if we stayed that way. While I know this is not the same as the article, I would not have a blanket rule that a boyfriend could not stay here if they needed to. They would not be in the same bedroom however.

Joined: 03/08/03
Posts: 3179

Easy for me to speculate when my oldest is 9 and has no interest. That said. . .if he or Juliet were in high school and in a healthy, committed relationship, and I felt that they were comfortable and ready for a sexual relationship with that person, I'd actually rather they were home than elsewhere. (Can't say I know my husband would agree!)

But that doesn't mean it's an open house or I'd be encouraging them to do so. . .but I knew some kids in high school who were at a different place in their relationships, they were truly together, and sleeping together, and in love. Some stayed together, some didn't, but it's certainly POSSIBLE.

But it's so hypothetical at this point.

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 4087

My DH & I were actually talking about this a few weeks ago. The conversation started when we were reminiscing about a particular Christmas visit to his mom's house. We'd been living together for a couple of years, but she still insisted on us sleeping in separate rooms because she didn't want to expose his little sisters to our sinfulness. :rolleyes: (We need a better eye-rolling icon!) I'm not sure they even knew if we were married or not or what sleeping in the same room together might mean, but it meant something to his mom to make a big deal out of making a bed on the sofa for him every night. And every night after they went to bed, I snuggled up with him on the sofa, we didn't ever touch the bed just to drive her batty, LOL! And just because parents are there doesn't mean they're watching or caring. My DH remarked that he would often spend the night at Rob's house and he had a crush on Rob's sister and their parents never came downstairs so anything could have happened if Rob's sister had been interested in him.

We both feel strongly that we want to know what our kids are doing, and with whom, and we will have a "no opposite sex friends in the house alone" rule. We will make a big deal out of the important things -- emotional maturity, birth control, health care, and it being a healthy relationship. But if they have all those things, and are brazen enough to have sex in their bedroom when we are there, then we aren't going to make a big deal out of the sex part. We both think we benefited from me sleeping over at his dad's place when we first got together; it allowed us to grow together, to grow into a more mature loving relationship, without the pressure of living together before we could afford our own place or trying to find places to have sex.

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

First off:


But the greater dividend of his stay was that it gave Ms. Collins's three younger adolescent children a view of committed love that far surpassed most of what they had seen from adults. Ms. Collins said, "I hope they won?t settle for less."

Made my eyes roll so far back in my head they almost got stuck. Either Ms. Collins knows adults in totally craptastic relationships or these two teenagers were truly living a romance for the ages. I mean, GAG that we are describing 17 year old love relationships like that. I mean, I had a very serious boyfriend when I was 17, but to compare that to the love that comes from having children with someone, marrying someone, managing real life heartache like parental illness or the near death of a child with someone.....and saying that my kids could LEARN SOMETHING from that 17 year old sweaty palm heartracing OMG does my *** look good in these jeans *love* (which, yes, was love, but certainly not on par with the love that comes of years of maturity and actually forging a real life with someone without mommy and daddy footing all the bills!!!LOL), well, Ms. Collins and her opinions lost my respect then and there.

I grew up in a traditional home. Yes, perhaps that HS boyfriend spend the night once or twice (in the living room) due to bad weather or whatnot but obviously that isn't what the article is about. I never spent the night in the same room with a partner, including my husband when we were engaged, under my parents roof.

On some level I had always expected that that is how it will be with my kids as well, simply out of respect. That said, its a looooong way off, and I really don't know how we will feel about this, then. I do NOT expect my children to be virgins on their wedding night, in fact I would steer them away from that if I have input into that decision.......and if my children exhibit maturity and good decision making and openness and whatnot who knows what rules we may find acceptable. I can say with certainty that my husband and I will not, however, be holding up their teenaged relationships as examples of adult love! Thats just silly.

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 4087

I have to say that I also rolled my eyes at that comment at first, Melissa, but then I thought about it again. The love relationships that kids tend to see *are* the older, mature, years-together-raising-kids kind. They also see infatuation, and they see lust, and they see perfect-on-TV, and they see things that end badly. Unless they're growing up with a large extended family with multiple generations, most kids don't ever see what new, fresh healthy love really looks like. I wouldn't go out and look for an opportunity to bring my daughter's boyfriend into our home on a permanent basis, but given the options of him ending up on the street versus exposing our younger child to their relationship, I'd choose the latter. Not because I think he needs to witness it to know what real love is, but because it's not going to hurt him in the way that the prudes think it will, kwim?

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

Yes but she didn't call it infatuation or lust ~ she called it Committed love. I personally would be lolzing all day long if anyone tried to compare my relationship with my husband to that of any 17 year old kid in terms of commitment. Lust? Infatuation? Sure. But commitment? No way. At that time my boyfriend was over our house frequently because my family was welcoming and friendly and he was a great guy. My siblings were 4 and 8 years younger so they got to see plenty of that, that puppy dog playful happy and infatuated love. It didn't hold a candle to the sort of committed love that my parents shared, and to call it by the same moniker would have been silly. Its just a weird comparison to me.

ftmom's picture
Joined: 09/04/06
Posts: 1538

My thought on that quote is that we are talking about a single mother, and if the father is also single, or out of the picture, then those kids maybe havent been exposed to a long term healthy relationship before.

My knee jerk is that I would not allow sleep overs, but I am willing to revisit in a few years (At least 11-12) and base my decision on my child and the partner. DH's parents allowed sleepovers with no discussion, while I never would have even asked my parents and always snuck back in before they got up. I hope that between the two of us we can come up with something in between the two extremes.

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 4087

Being with the same person for a year when you're only 17 is pretty committed IMO. If we were talking about a 40-year-old, then yes, I'd LOL all day, too.

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6542

I disagree that two 17 year old's are not capable of a deeply committed relationship. Romeo and Juliet comes to mind. DH first asked me about marrying him when we were 17. Many of my parents generation was either married or engaged at 17 or 18. I was just as committed to DH when I was 17 as when I was 20. (We dated from 15/16 until when we got married at 20/21)

There also I am sure are older teenagers in much more of a committed relationship the some 30 year olds.

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

I disagree that two 17 year old's are not capable of a deeply committed relationship. Romeo and Juliet comes to mind. DH first asked me about marrying him when we were 17. Many of my parents generation was either married or engaged at 17 or 18. I was just as committed to DH when I was 17 as when I was 20. (We dated from 15/16 until when we got married at 20/21)

There also I am sure are older teenagers in much more of a committed relationship the some 30 year olds.

Bonita, Romeo and Juliet was a story, like the Wizard of Oz or Peter Pan.

And yes......but honestly many things that have been written in this forum display a shocking lack of maturity re: planning and financial acumen etc that I would expect of a teenager. I.E I would intervene as a grandparent if my adult children were married and reproducing without a will etc. I would hope my adult and married children were capable of funding their own home repairs. I don't hope that my children marry as children, personally. And no, I don't believe that the average teenaged relationship is one that I would hold up as an example of what actual commitment is. When you don't even pay for the roof over your head one lacks a certain level of responsibility that IMO comes with making actual decisions which fuel commitment. Its cute, its sweet, but it isn't adult, to me. I know that everyone has their own ideas of that, this is simply mine. You aren't in an adult relationship when you are living as a child in your parents home, in my opinion only. You may want to be, you may think you are, but (TO ME) you aren't.

Either

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6542

"Potter75" wrote:

Bonita, Romeo and Juliet was a story, like the Wizard of Oz or Peter Pan.

Yes, it is a story but the principal is the same. I just simply disagree. Just because you are 17 does not mean it only lust or infatuation. I strongly believe that a 17 year old is capable of deeply loving another teenager. I remember when I was a freshman in college. A young man's (Not 17, but probably 18 or 19) girlfriend broke up with him. He committed suicide his dispare was so great. Are you saying because he was not in his 30'3, he was not capable of deeply loving someone? This idea that you must be an adult to really love someone is a little beyond belief.

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6542

Edited because it was not very kind.

Danifo's picture
Joined: 09/07/10
Posts: 1377

We started dating in high school. We had no question where our relationship was going but also felt like we wanted to be done school and frankly, that was easier and cheaper when we could each live at home. I have some other friends who also started dating then and are still married. Of course I'm going to say that a high school relationship can be very committed. I also knew many people who dated for years in high school and those relationships never went anywhere afterwards.

As an outsider, it is very difficult to judge commitment. I have friends who've gotten married after a few months (even a few months after sending out their invitations and then cancelling a wedding to another guy). These prompted all kinds of eye rolling about commitment. These people have all been married over 5 years and most over 10 years. Now I'd say it is not my business and as long as they are adults and can support their life together, I wish them all the best.

If my adult child is living on their own and wants to bring a boyfriend to visit, I have no problem with them sharing a room. I would not allow my daughter in high school and I would have trouble allowing my adult child who lives at home to have their boyfriend sleep over.

I know Romeo and Juliet are always held up as a huge romance but I find it childish. I have no idea what they know about the other person other than lust. The reaction to the other's death also strikes me of teenage drama. Maybe I'm just not romantic.

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

Yes, it is a story but the principal is the same. I just simply disagree. Just because you are 17 does not mean it only lust or infatuation. I strongly believe that a 17 year old is capable of deeply loving another teenager. I remember when I was a freshman in college. A young man's (Not 17, but probably 18 or 19) girlfriend broke up with him. He committed suicide his dispare was so great. Are you saying because he was not in his 30'3, he was not capable of deeply loving someone? This idea that you must be an adult to really love someone is a little beyond belief.

The principal of WHAT is the same? That teenagers are stupid and don't think things through?

And please show me, where did I say you must be an adult to really love someone? I think not. I said that to compare a "committed relationship" of teenagers who live with their parents to that of actual adults (as the OP did, which, if you actually read my posts you will see is what I am very clearly talking about) is silly. I don't believe that most teenagers have the history or the actual real life relationship experience (moving cross country, job loss, infertility, serious illness, parental illness or loss, making the rent or mortgage, buying or selling a home, dealing with major life decisions etc etc etc) that compare to two high schoolers and their relationship. I believe that those things both forge AND test committment in ways that simply living in ones parents house, going to the friday night football game, and passing notes back and forth simply can't. Yes you have plenty of time to bat eyes at one another and talk on the phone while your parents pay your mortgage for you and you dream of being BFF's forevah.....but, no, while the relationship I had from 16-23 was amazing and WAS love.....to compare it at 17 (we hadn't even had sex! Talk about a different sort of committment!) to an adult marriage is ridiculous.

THe OP was saying that the commitment shown by teens was MORE mature than adults ~ I am saying, with full confidence, that the OP knows some truly messed up adults if that is the case. I don't have any peers who are still married (maybe one good friend who divorced after 10 years) who I would say exhibits less committment than a 17 year old highschool couple. If I did I probably would have a hard time being friends with them as we wouldn't have a lot to relate to them on on a couple's level. It would be awkward as our emotional levels would be in such different places.

mom3girls's picture
Joined: 01/09/07
Posts: 1530

`My initial gut reaction is no no no no no way in h#%^ is my child going to be given permission to have sex in my house, but when I really think about it I know I cant say for sure either way until the situation arises. I really cant imagine a situation where I think "oh yep, I would allow it if X happened" but who knows.

I too do not believe that any relationship at 17 could be held up as example as to what a long term committed relationship looks like. I think 17 year olds are capable of great relationships, relationships that can grow into a perfect example of what a healthy relationship looks like. My parents starting dating at 14 and 15. My mom will admit that she didnt even fully understand what the love really meant until after I was born (I am the second biological child) and my dad burned his hand really badly in a fire.

Romeo and Juliet are a terrible example of young love, it is just one that kind of shows me that young love has unrealistic expectations of what a relationship looks like.

ftmom's picture
Joined: 09/04/06
Posts: 1538

"Potter75" wrote:

The principal of WHAT is the same? That teenagers are stupid and don't think things through?

And please show me, where did I say you must be an adult to really love someone? I think not. I said that to compare a "committed relationship" of teenagers who live with their parents to that of actual adults (as the OP did, which, if you actually read my posts you will see is what I am very clearly talking about) is silly. I don't believe that most teenagers have the history or the actual real life relationship experience (moving cross country, job loss, infertility, serious illness, parental illness or loss, making the rent or mortgage, buying or selling a home, dealing with major life decisions etc etc etc) that compare to two high schoolers and their relationship. I believe that those things both forge AND test committment in ways that simply living in ones parents house, going to the friday night football game, and passing notes back and forth simply can't. Yes you have plenty of time to bat eyes at one another and talk on the phone while your parents pay your mortgage for you and you dream of being BFF's forevah.....but, no, while the relationship I had from 16-23 was amazing and WAS love.....to compare it at 17 (we hadn't even had sex! Talk about a different sort of committment!) to an adult marriage is ridiculous.

THe OP was saying that the commitment shown by teens was MORE mature than adults ~ I am saying, with full confidence, that the OP knows some truly messed up adults if that is the case. I don't have any peers who are still married (maybe one good friend who divorced after 10 years) who I would say exhibits less committment than a 17 year old highschool couple. If I did I probably would have a hard time being friends with them as we wouldn't have a lot to relate to them on on a couple's level. It would be awkward as our emotional levels would be in such different places.

I dont think it is fair for us to judge anyone's relationship in terms of their commitment to one another. I mean, at what point does one become part of a committed relationship? DH and I bought a house, moved away from family and that's about it from your list. Does that meant we are less committed than someone who meets 3 or 4 of your criteria? I think that teenagers can be just as commited, or not, as adults can. Many couples marry directly from their parents houses and move in together after the wedding. Does that mean that they are not truly committed to each other on their wedding day? According to your criteria they couldnt possibly be.

I dont think the original post was saying that the commitment of the teens was MORE mature than adults, just that it was more mature than any relationship her girls had been regularly exposed to. Just because my friends have good relationships, doesnt mean that my kids have experience with those relationships, or the day to day commitment of those couples. I do think that it takes living with it to gain experience in anyones relationship.

mom3girls's picture
Joined: 01/09/07
Posts: 1530

"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

Yes, it is a story but the principal is the same. I just simply disagree. Just because you are 17 does not mean it only lust or infatuation. I strongly believe that a 17 year old is capable of deeply loving another teenager. I remember when I was a freshman in college. A young man's (Not 17, but probably 18 or 19) girlfriend broke up with him. He committed suicide his dispare was so great. Are you saying because he was not in his 30'3, he was not capable of deeply loving someone? This idea that you must be an adult to really love someone is a little beyond belief.

I agree that a 17 year olds love can be deep. I am surprised though that you think it is an accurate analogy to compare a 17 year olds relationship to that of a couple that has been married a long time. I had a boyfriend all through high school that I loved with the fire of a thousand suns, and he is still someone I consider to be a good friend (his sister were in our wedding) but now that I am in a marriage I can see that the relationship I have with DH far surpasses anything I could have even imagined then.

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

Um- you have three kids together - and years of marriage- do you really think I'm saying that? I was just throwing things out off the top of my head. You don't call deciding to have a baby a major lif decision? Huh. I do.

was just listing examples. But if you feel that 17 year olds have relationships that are the same as you and your dh's that's great! I so don't. Life has taught me so much between 17 and now Smile

and if you read the quote she clearly says "far surpassed" - so , I think you are wrong.

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6542

"mom3girls" wrote:

I agree that a 17 year olds love can be deep. I am surprised though that you think it is an accurate analogy to compare a 17 year olds relationship to that of a couple that has been married a long time. I had a boyfriend all through high school that I loved with the fire of a thousand suns, and he is still someone I consider to be a good friend (his sister were in our wedding) but now that I am in a marriage I can see that the relationship I have with DH far surpasses anything I could have even imagined then.

This conversation IMO is talking purely age, not years together. Two 17 year olds that have been together 1 year not capable of loving as deep as two 30 year olds that have been together a year. Just the fact that they are 17 makes them incapable of loving as deeply as someone who is older.

A couple who has been together for 30 years and has been together through thick and this is going to mean a lot more than a couple together for a few months. That however has nothing to do with their age. Saying someone can not have deep committed love just because they are 17 is very discriminatory IMO.

This is a very heartfelt topic for me because I DID love DH very deeply and was very committed to him when I was 17. There were many people who felt our love could not possibly be real because of our age. They were wrong.

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

Discriminatory? That's so silly Bonita.

Joined: 03/08/03
Posts: 3179

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that 17-year-olds can truly be in love, for real. I know a couple who fell deeply in love in early high school and are still married now, and they're my age so they're in their mid/late 40s.

Anyway to me that's not the point...I don't have "not under my roof" rules but I certainly don't want to encourage my kids to have sex before they are ready. That doesn't mean marriage, to me, at all....but it doesn't mean jumping into bed with someone too young and for the wrong reasons either.

But if I felt it was a healthy relationship I won't have "no sex" rules.

AlyssaEimers's picture
Joined: 08/22/06
Posts: 6542

"Potter75" wrote:

Discriminatory? That's so silly Bonita.

And saying everything is "silly" is so grown up and mature?

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

And saying everything is "silly" is so grown up and mature?

I've backed up my opinion in very long posts. I hate using the discrimination card when one can't back up their opinion with an actual argument. But alas- time for my deep tissue massage- ta!

im not calling everything silly- just your claim of discrimination. Which is so silly Smile

ftmom's picture
Joined: 09/04/06
Posts: 1538

"Potter75" wrote:

Um- you have three kids together - and years of marriage- do you really think I'm saying that? I was just throwing things out off the top of my head. You don't call deciding to have a baby a major lif decision? Huh. I do.

was just listing examples. But if you feel that 17 year olds have relationships that are the same as you and your dh's that's great! I so don't. Life has taught me so much between 17 and now Smile

and if you read the quote she clearly says "far surpassed" - so , I think you are wrong.

I am not saying it is the same at all, just that it could be as committed. My SIL got married when she was 18. They are now still married 11 years later with 2 kids and have dealt with more things you listed then DH and I. I honestly dont think she is any more COMMITTED to her relationship today then she was on her wedding day. Sure, the relationship has matured and changed, but their commitment to each other and their relationship hasn't.

And she didnt say 'far surpassed any adult relationship' but 'far surpassed any relationship my other daughters have seen'.

Rivergallery's picture
Joined: 05/23/03
Posts: 1301

To the OP.. absolutely not.. if their so needed a place to stay I would find a different home for them to stay at.. ie neighbors or grandparents etc.

mom3girls's picture
Joined: 01/09/07
Posts: 1530

Bonita, if I had met my Dh at 17 I may have been more in the same camp as you (well not really, he is way older so that would have been illegal) I think the woman that wrote that article was putting way more faith into a relationship then she should at 17. I have seen relationships that started in high school work out long term, but I dont think that is the norm

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 4087

"ftmom" wrote:

And she didnt say 'far surpassed any adult relationship' but 'far surpassed any relationship my other daughters have seen'.

Exactly. I don't know about Melis, but my kids haven't really witnessed on a daily basis any other relationships except my own. We don't live near our sisters who have been married a long time (and actually my sister just announced this weekend that she's divorcing her husband, and I've heard rumors about my SIL's marriage) and our own parents are all divorced. Maybe this author had a bad marriage, so that's what her kids know as "what marriage is."

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

"Spacers" wrote:

Exactly. I don't know about Melis, but my kids haven't really witnessed on a daily basis any other relationships except my own. We don't live near our sisters who have been married a long time (and actually my sister just announced this weekend that she's divorcing her husband, and I've heard rumors about my SIL's marriage) and our own parents are all divorced. Maybe this author had a bad marriage, so that's what her kids know as "what marriage is."

Yes, our life is very different. My kids see one set or the other of grandparents at least weekly, my parents have been married 40 years and DH's 46. Our siblings are all happily married and all live nearby, the kids see my sister and BIL almost daily at the gym. We vacation together occasionally and spend weekends together at the beach, and we vacation or go away for the weekend with other happily married couples often. My good friends are all married, and we entertain them often, my kids call many of my good friends "aunt and uncle".

To me it would be like my parents telling me to look up to Brenden and Kelly on 90210 as an example of what a good relationship was. People really DO that? Its just very very foreign to me. I like kids and have a tremendous amount of respect for children. That said, I don't equate their teenaged and high school relationships to my marriage to my spouse. Its apples and oranges, and always will be, in my mind. If others feel that their relationship is equivalent to HS relationships, great! I simply don't feel remotely that way.

If the only healthy relationships in my life my children witnessed were my teenagers.....well, I would probably feel that I deserved to wear one of those signs that read : "Life: I'm doing it wrong". If that sounds harsh thats okay. How on earth can kids learn healthy relationships if we don't model them to them? Part of that means surrounding them with examples of healthy individuals (gay, straight, whatever) who know how to maintain healthy relationships. 17 year olds in the throes of new love are NOT the best example of what that means for the long haul.

Joined: 08/17/04
Posts: 2226

I'm not going to say I wouldn't allow their bf or gf to stay over but it would have to be a case by case basis. It's really hard to plan for 12+ years in advance. I do think if I was to allow this I would absolutely make sure his (or her) parents were aware of it so they weren't sneaking around their parents back.

Dh and I started dating when I was 19. He started sleeping over when our parents decided it was more stressful to worry about us driving back and forth (45 minutes 1 way) and waiting for us to get home and we started sleeping over. My mother's point was that had I gone away to school instead of commuting I would be doing it anyway... a valid point. However, my parents don't see anything wrong with premarital sex or living together outside of marriage (neither does my grandmother...she wishes it was the norm when she was a young woman).

Joined: 03/08/03
Posts: 3179

"Jessica80" wrote:

I'm not going to say I wouldn't allow their bf or gf to stay over but it would have to be a case by case basis. It's really hard to plan for 12+ years in advance. I do think if I was to allow this I would absolutely make sure his (or her) parents were aware of it so they weren't sneaking around their parents back.

That's a really good point too. It's not up to me to make decisions for someone else's kid.....and can you imagine THAT awkward conversation? (Actually I think I saw it on the MTV show "Awkward" before I gave up on it.)

ftmom's picture
Joined: 09/04/06
Posts: 1538

"Potter75" wrote:

Yes, our life is very different. My kids see one set or the other of grandparents at least weekly, my parents have been married 40 years and DH's 46. Our siblings are all happily married and all live nearby, the kids see my sister and BIL almost daily at the gym. We vacation together occasionally and spend weekends together at the beach, and we vacation or go away for the weekend with other happily married couples often. My good friends are all married, and we entertain them often, my kids call many of my good friends "aunt and uncle".

To me it would be like my parents telling me to look up to Brenden and Kelly on 90210 as an example of what a good relationship was. People really DO that? Its just very very foreign to me. I like kids and have a tremendous amount of respect for children. That said, I don't equate their teenaged and high school relationships to my marriage to my spouse. Its apples and oranges, and always will be, in my mind. If others feel that their relationship is equivalent to HS relationships, great! I simply don't feel remotely that way.

If the only healthy relationships in my life my children witnessed were my teenagers.....well, I would probably feel that I deserved to wear one of those signs that read : "Life: I'm doing it wrong". If that sounds harsh thats okay. How on earth can kids learn healthy relationships if we don't model them to them? Part of that means surrounding them with examples of healthy individuals (gay, straight, whatever) who know how to maintain healthy relationships. 17 year olds in the throes of new love are NOT the best example of what that means for the long haul.

Again, I dont think anyone is saying a teenage relationship is THE SAME as their long time married relationship, just that both can be committed, and I can see value in both.

As has been pointed out before in other threads, not everyone lives your life, and not everyone should. Even though you seem to have a good life, it would sure be a boring world if we all lived the same way.

Oh, also wanted to add that if DH and I got divorced or I was widowed I would not be looking to enter into ANY relationship until my kids were older. I will not put my children at risk just to show them a positive relationship, and I would not be holding their grandparents up as that ideal either as they are not. I would certainly see value in that sort of situation for my younger children to witness any relationship where both people respect each other and are committed to the relationship. That doesnt mean that I would allow it to take place in my home however.

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

"ftmom" wrote:

As has been pointed out before in other threads, not everyone lives your life, and not everyone should. Even though you seem to have a good life, it would sure be a boring world if we all lived the same way.

Oh, also wanted to add that if DH and I got divorced or I was widowed I would not be looking to enter into ANY relationship until my kids were older. I will not put my children at risk just to show them a positive relationship, and I would not be holding their grandparents up as that ideal either as they are not. I would certainly see value in that sort of situation for my younger children to witness any relationship where both people respect each other and are committed to the relationship. That doesnt mean that I would allow it to take place in my home however.

Yes.......I'm not saying everyone should. Simply countering Stacey's real life example with my own. Is that okay with you? It happens on pretty much every thread, if you notice on this thread almost everyone has done it ~ Not sure why you are riding me for it. Yes, life would be boring if we all lived the same way, and I think that life would be crappier if we all emulated TEENAGERS in our relationship modeling. It also sounds like an awful lot of pressure for one teen to bear. Mom can't maintain a relationship, doesn't know anyone who CAN maintain a healthy relationship, but writes about how incredibly mature and deep the relationship of her teenager has, and how it is the only healthy role model of relationships for Mom's younger children? Jeez, talk about pressure!! Poor kids. Not healthy, IMO.

If DH died suddenly or we divorced I'm sure I'd remarry or date or stuff. I would sincerely hope he would do the same, we have talked about this. I think that its hard raising a family and very natural to want to do it with someone else. I know that there are healthy ways to manage this with young kids in the picture. Is this where I should tell you that everyone is not you blah blah blah? Or would that be rude and a bad debate tactic after you shared your personal experience?

Joined: 03/14/09
Posts: 624

"AlyssaEimers" wrote:

Yes, it is a story but the principal is the same. I just simply disagree. Just because you are 17 does not mean it only lust or infatuation. I strongly believe that a 17 year old is capable of deeply loving another teenager. I remember when I was a freshman in college. A young man's (Not 17, but probably 18 or 19) girlfriend broke up with him. He committed suicide his dispare was so great. Are you saying because he was not in his 30'3, he was not capable of deeply loving someone? This idea that you must be an adult to really love someone is a little beyond belief.

Romeo and Juliet is not just a story, it's a tragedy! Killing yourself for a boyfriend or girlfriend in no way shows that you are any more deeply in love than the next person. It shows that you have other psychological issues or worse coping skills than most people.

ftmom's picture
Joined: 09/04/06
Posts: 1538

"Potter75" wrote:

Yes.......I'm not saying everyone should. Simply countering Stacey's real life example with my own. Is that okay with you? It happens on pretty much every thread, if you notice on this thread almost everyone has done it ~ Not sure why you are riding me for it. Yes, life would be boring if we all lived the same way, and I think that life would be crappier if we all emulated TEENAGERS in our relationship modeling. It also sounds like an awful lot of pressure for one teen to bear. Mom can't maintain a relationship, doesn't know anyone who CAN maintain a healthy relationship, but writes about how incredibly mature and deep the relationship of her teenager has, and how it is the only healthy role model of relationships for Mom's younger children? Jeez, talk about pressure!! Poor kids. Not healthy, IMO.

If DH died suddenly or we divorced I'm sure I'd remarry or date or stuff. I would sincerely hope he would do the same, we have talked about this. I think that its hard raising a family and very natural to want to do it with someone else. I know that there are healthy ways to manage this with young kids in the picture. Is this where I should tell you that everyone is not you blah blah blah? Or would that be rude and a bad debate tactic after you shared your personal experience?

I was not aware that I was 'riding' you about it. I was simply trying to point out that not everyone can or wants to surround themselves with others the way that you seem to. That doesnt meant that those around them are not able to maintain a relationship, my point was more that not everyone invites others into their life to the extent you do. Please dont take that as an insult, as it is not intended to be one. You appear to have a rich life with lots of close friends and it works well for you. I do not make close friends easily and DH is a very private person, so our kids would not have those people as role models not because we dont know people in good relationships, but because we are not really close to them, my kids dont see them often.

I think that my issue is with your assumption that mom 'cant maintain a relationship' and 'doesnt know anyone who can', because like I said, if I was widowed my kids might be in a situation where they are not in close proximity to any relationships. So again, I think that any relationship that is free from abuse, shows respect, committed to each other would be a good thing for a younger child to see, especially if the parents relationship didnt end with those things and that is the last relationship those kids lived inside of. Even though my parents would have never allowed sleepovers, my sisters relationships were role models for me. They showed me what a relationship should look like at that time in my life, that I should demand respect, etc. So yes, a TEENAGER should emulate a TEENAGERS relationship. That doesnt mean that mom should emulate it, or you and I should, but again there is value for other young girls.

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

Others may not want to have community- but I feel certain that having community is healthier than relying on teen romances for role modeling at the end of the day. "It takes a village" isn't something I made up.

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 4087

The article doesn't say that this mom was relying on a teen romance as a role model for her other kids; it's more that, after the fact, she saw a benefit in it that she didn't expect. Her younger children saw people who were a lot closer to their own age in a real, loving, committed relationship on a daily basis. Here's a link to the original article if you want to read the whole bit about Ms. Collins:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/11/fashion/sex-in-a-teenagers-room.html?pagewanted=all&_r=3&

And again, I have no idea what your community has to do with this. How many of those people you listed live with you? If they don't, then how is their day-to-day relationship with their partner any kind of relationship model for your kids? And how many of them are teenagers, who happen to be in a really good relationship? From what I can tell, none. And they don't live with you even if they are. It's apples to oranges.

fuchsiasky's picture
Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 955

We would not allow a sleepover. If there was some emergency reason a boy needed to stay the night he could do so in the living room. It is not sometime we feel comfortable having happen in our house. Especially since DSD is 16 with no long term or serious boyfriend.

That said, DSD did do something entirely foolish with her (not serious) boyfriend outside of her homes and has had to deal with the consequences. She had a pregnancy scare (negative thank goodness!) and ended up with mono. Fun. She is still sick. She also had the joy of having to fess up to her parents and deal with the disappointment. And she got to go to the gyno with her mom for birth control. So much fun! We are not going to tell her that she can't make choices for her own body. We gave some very (I hope) useful advice. (Such as don't sleep with him if you aren't willing to raise a child by yourself!) And we made sure she got better birth control than a condom. But she is still 16 and we aren't going to make her life easier by saying her boyfriend can stay over for the night. Hopefully her scare will have her thinking wiser in future. And if someday she has a boyfriend who is serious and they are willing to have an adult conversation with us it may change. But not now!

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

"Spacers" wrote:

The article doesn't say that this mom was relying on a teen romance as a role model for her other kids; it's more that, after the fact, she saw a benefit in it that she didn't expect. Her younger children saw people who were a lot closer to their own age in a real, loving, committed relationship on a daily basis. Here's a link to the original article if you want to read the whole bit about Ms. Collins:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/11/fashion/sex-in-a-teenagers-room.html?pagewanted=all&_r=3&

And again, I have no idea what your community has to do with this. How many of those people you listed live with you? If they don't, then how is their day-to-day relationship with their partner any kind of relationship model for your kids? And how many of them are teenagers, who happen to be in a really good relationship? From what I can tell, none. And they don't live with you even if they are. It's apples to oranges.

Um..... YOU were the one who brought up family relationships as role models, not me! I was replying to YOUR post. And of course I believe that my children spending quality time with people who have healthy relationships is excellent for them- are you for serious when you imply that only people who actually live with can provide valid examples of healthy romantic relationships ? That's nonsense! And no- I don't care if any of them are teens as I don't really see the benefit of "showing" my children teen love relationships when they are 4 or 5. I feel confident that Instilling them with a sense of their self worth and surrounding them with healthy relationship mentors (first and foremost From their parents, then other family members, then friends) will aide greatly in them navigating the world of teen relationships when they themselves are teens.

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 4087

You seem to be very stuck on this one point, which I believe you are mis-interpreting, and you seem to be discounting the entire article because of it. I think your POV is skewed because you grew up in a happy home with good relationship role models so you really have no idea what it's like to grow up *not* seeing how a loving marriage works. And I disagree with you that "community" can provide the same thing, because you can never really see how people live & love together unless you're right there in their home with them. You're absolutely right that teenagers don't have the life experiences that adults do, and that is exactly the point. Teenagers who *are* in a good relationship can be role models for other kids not because they have some great life experience or dozens of years together but simply because they are teenagers in a good relationship. And for a young person who doesn't see that in the other relationships in her life, it might be a life-changing eye-opener.

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

"Spacers" wrote:

You seem to be very stuck on this one point, which I believe you are mis-interpreting, and you seem to be discounting the entire article because of it. I think your POV is skewed because you grew up in a happy home with good relationship role models so you really have no idea what it's like to grow up *not* seeing how a loving marriage works. And I disagree with you that "community" can provide the same thing, because you can never really see how people live & love together unless you're right there in their home with them. You're absolutely right that teenagers don't have the life experiences that adults do, and that is exactly the point. Teenagers who *are* in a good relationship can be role models for other kids not because they have some great life experience or dozens of years together but simply because they are teenagers in a good relationship. And for a young person who doesn't see that in the other relationships in her life, it might be a life-changing eye-opener.

nah, now you are just deflecting because its awkward that I reminded you that you were the one who brought up family relationships- not me. I could just as easily say that you have no idea how growing up in a happy home with extended happy friends and family ( all of my aunts and uncles are married 30 plus years, and divorce is almost unheard of in my parents circle) impacts my view of relationships. OTHER than, of course, I can say that my kids are growing up with an abundance of healthy mentors- and according to you yours have none outside of you and your husband. So at the end of the day, I know which system I prefer. I think parents do a disservice to their children when they themselves don't cultivate healthy relationships or have friends in healthy relationships when they have children. I think that if a parent is truly relying on a TEEN to be the only beacon of health or hope to their children as they navigate adult or meaningful relationships, that parent has done their child a disservice.

And I'm not hung up on it- I'm debating it. You keep quoting me so I keep replying. Standard debate stuff. The rest of the article isn't that interesting to me as my kids are so young so I'm not going to conjure up a bunch of fake stuff to debate. This part interests me. Me disagreeing with you isn't misinterpreting- it's having a different opinion.

ftmom's picture
Joined: 09/04/06
Posts: 1538

"Potter75" wrote:

Others may not want to have community- but I feel certain that having community is healthier than relying on teen romances for role modeling at the end of the day. "It takes a village" isn't something I made up.

Nobody is arguing this point with you. But nothing in there says that having a community like Melis, is healthier than everyone elses community. Yes it takes a village, but not YOUR village. I am a different person than you, and my children are different then yours and I prioritize things differently then you. And no one said they were relying on teen romances for role modeling, not in the original article, or within the debate.

"Potter75" wrote:

nah, now you are just deflecting because its awkward that I reminded you that you were the one who brought up family relationships- not me. I could just as easily say that you have no idea how growing up in a happy home with extended happy friends and family ( all of my aunts and uncles are married 30 plus years, and divorce is almost unheard of in my parents circle) impacts my view of relationships. OTHER than, of course, I can say that my kids are growing up with an abundance of healthy mentors- and according to you yours have none outside of you and your husband. So at the end of the day, I know which system I prefer. I think parents do a disservice to their children when they themselves don't cultivate healthy relationships or have friends in healthy relationships when they have children. I think that if a parent is truly relying on a TEEN to be the only beacon of health or hope to their children as they navigate adult or meaningful relationships, that parent has done their child a disservice.

And I'm not hung up on it- I'm debating it. You keep quoting me so I keep replying. Standard debate stuff. The rest of the article isn't that interesting to me as my kids are so young so I'm not going to conjure up a bunch of fake stuff to debate. This part interests me. Me disagreeing with you isn't misinterpreting- it's having a different opinion.

To the bolded: To demonstrate my point about us having different priorities as parents, I think single parents (especially mothers) do a disservice to their children when they pursue new relationships to the point that a new person is spending large amounts of time around the children. And since I think that basically living with the child is what is needed to really SHOW a child all the different parts of a relationship, then it does not surprise me at all that children of a single mother would not have full exposure to much in the way of relationships. I would hope that is how I would act if I was single.

And again, the part that I think you are misinterpreting (I wont speak for others) is that no one is RELYing on a teen to demonstrate an adult or meaningful relationship. This mother is just saying that in retrospect she thinks it was good for her younger children to live with a committed, respectful relationship and see what that looks like from the inside.

fuchsiasky's picture
Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 955

"Potter75" wrote:

I think parents do a disservice to their children when they themselves don't cultivate healthy relationships or have friends in healthy relationships when they have children. I think that if a parent is truly relying on a TEEN to be the only beacon of health or hope to their children as they navigate adult or meaningful relationships, that parent has done their child a disservice. .

But sometimes it isn't possible to cultivate a healthy relationship for the children to see. It wasn't for my parents. I am fully aware of what a bad relationship or marriage looks like because, with the exception of my grandparents, I never saw a good one. They just didn't exist among my family or family friends. Everyone was single or split up. It has done me a disservice. I refused to get married so that I don't have to get a divorce. It has taken Rob 8 years of our good relationship to have me trust it enough to be willing to consider marriage. But there was nothing my parents could have done about it. They didn't have a choice. So if there were examples of good relationships among my teen friends it at least gave me hope that it could exist.

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

Fuscia I was speaking directly to people who said they had no village- i dont care if people have "my" village or not- i simply believe that we all need "a" villiage. that is NOT some elite or uncommon believe much as you may try to taint my view or twist it into somethingg it isnt. And yes- like you said- it's a disservice. That's all. You prove my point. And generally parents who can't maintain any healthy relationships or make friends with anyone who can do that statistically WILL have a harder time raising children who will have healthy relationships. The stats on that are in.

Spacers's picture
Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 4087

"Potter75" wrote:

I think that if a parent is truly relying on a TEEN to be the only beacon of health or hope to their children as they navigate adult or meaningful relationships, that parent has done their child a disservice.

Why do you keep saying that? It's flat-out wrong. She was NOT relying on a teen to show her other kids a healthy relationship, she saw it in retrospect as a bonus, to helping out her daughter's boyfriend, that her other kids *did* see a healthy relationship which she, herself, had not provided. I "get" that. And no, I don't consider my friends to be relationship mentors for my children, that's pretty weird & creepy to me. I honestly don't know whether most of them have a "good" relationship or not; I know what I see but I don't know how they live in private. And there are some that would say they have a good relationship, but it isn't a relationship I would want or would want my kids to have, like the husband working 80+ hours a week & never seeing the kids during the week. That's not a healthy relationship IMHO.

Alissa_Sal's picture
Joined: 06/29/06
Posts: 6427

This is a weird one for me. My first reaction is "absoLUTEly not" but I can't really logically explain why. I'm not opposed to sex before marriage, although I do want my boys to wait until they are mature enough to understand and deal with the potential consequences of sex. I kind of assume that my kids will have sex as teenagers at some point, as that seems to be the norm and I well know that it's something that I did, that my husband did, et cetera. And I want them to be safe about it, and to have the kind of relationship with me where we can talk through these issues honestly and respectfully. So all of that *should* point to me being open to them having a committed* partner stay over. But emotionally, I still feel like "hells to the no, they have to sneak around and do it when we're not home like normal kids." LOL So that's something that I will have to think more about.

I would let my adult children and their partners stay in the same room if they came to visit, though. I figure that once they are adults and living on their own, they are plenty old enough to be treated like adults.

*Whatever committed means at 17. I agree that I would not compare my relationships at 17 to my adult marriage, but I also know that 17 year olds can be committed to each other - my parents were engaged at 17 and have been married 34 years and counting, so I know it happens...but I still had a very different relationship with my 17 year old boyfriend (who I actually got engaged to!) than I have with my husband. And yes, part of it was age. At 17 I don't think I was emotionally ready to get into the kind of "for better or worse" relationship that I entered into with my husband.

Joined: 05/31/06
Posts: 4780

"Spacers" wrote:

And no, I don't consider my friends to be relationship mentors for my children, that's pretty weird & creepy to me. I honestly don't know whether most of them have a "good" relationship or not; I know what I see but I don't know how they live in private. And there are some that would say they have a good relationship, but it isn't a relationship I would want or would want my kids to have, like the husband working 80+ hours a week & never seeing the kids during the week. That's not a healthy relationship IMHO.

We obviously have really different ideas of friendships. Maybe because I have so many more hours in my week to interact with my friends ~ But I know them really well AND my children spend a lot of time around my friends. I wouldn't spend time around a couple who had a volitile or ugly relationship nor would I want my kids around that. I would find it bizarre to call my good friends "friends" and have no idea if they truly had a good relationship with their husband or not. We obviously wouldn't know one another well at all. I can't imagine thinking it CREEPY to say that my children know my friends well and, being bright and naturally curious beings ~ observe how adults interact. Again, as we interact with my friends a lot of their kids are my friends kids how could my kids NOT notice how the adults treat one another? It seriously astounds me that you find that "creepy". So weird!!!!

I guess I find it pretty judgmental of you to say that about a Dad who works 80 hours to support his family ~ heck, if you can't even know ANYTHING about the relationships of your own FRIENDS its amazing that you could know so much about stranger families.

While we are so lucky that DH works from home and we take a ton of vacations, I do know families where the husband is working like to make partner or complete his residency ~ it won't be forever and they manage to make it work as their eyes are on the prize for the long term. were I to make a similar judgment about a Mom who works like that to support her family I bet it would not be well received. Sounds pretty ****ty of you.

You seem to be taking this pretty personally and I'm not enjoying debating this with you, so I'll sign off. I do hope that you at some point find some people who do have healthy relationships who are important or close to your children, as I am sure they will benefit.

fuchsiasky's picture
Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 955

"Potter75" wrote:

Fuscia I was speaking directly to people who said they had no village- i dont care if people have "my" village or not- i simply believe that we all need "a" villiage. that is NOT some elite or uncommon believe much as you may try to taint my view or twist it into somethingg it isnt. And yes- like you said- it's a disservice. That's all. You prove my point. And generally parents who can't maintain any healthy relationships or make friends with anyone who can do that statistically WILL have a harder time raising children who will have healthy relationships. The stats on that are in.

We had a village. It was full of young single parents and young broken couples who fought over their children. So it wasn't a great example of positive relationships. That is what happens when you are a teen parent sometimes. So from my perspective it would have been great to see even a teen relationship that was going well! I do understand where the OP article is coming from. I can see the benefits. But having lived it I wouldn't want to put any of my children in that position.

Not sure if I am proving your point or not!

Alissa_Sal's picture
Joined: 06/29/06
Posts: 6427

Not exactly what we were talking about, but saw this today and thought it was wonderful:

Dear Daughter: I Hope You Have Awesome Sex | Ferrett Steinmetz

There's a piece of twaddle going around the internet called 10 Rules For Dating My Daughter, which is packed with "funny" threats like this:
"Rule Four: I'm sure you've been told that in today's world, sex without utilising some kind of 'barrier method' can kill you. Let me elaborate: when it comes to sex, I am the barrier, and I will kill you."

All of which boil down to the tedious, "Boys are threatening louts, sex is awful when other people do it, and my daughter is a plastic doll whose destiny I control."

Look, I love sex. It's fun. And because I love my daughter, I want her to have all of the same delights in life that I do, and hopefully more. I don't want to hear about the fine details because, heck, I don't want those visuals any more than my daughter wants mine. But in the abstract, darling, go out and play.

Because consensual sex isn't something that men take from you; it's something you give. It doesn't lessen you to give someone else pleasure. It doesn't degrade you to have some of your own. And anyone who implies otherwise is a man who probably thinks very poorly of women underneath the surface.

Yes, all these boys and girls and genderqueers may break your heart, and that in turn will break mine. I've held you, sobbing, after your boyfriend cheated on you, and it tore me in two. But you know what would tear me in two even more? To see you in a glass cage, experiencing nothing but cold emptiness at your fingers, as Dear Old Dad ensured that you got to experience nothing until he decided what you should like.

You're not me. Nor are you an extension of my will. And so you need to make your own damn mistakes, to learn how to pick yourself up when you fall, to learn where the bandages are and to bind up your own cuts. I'll help. I'll be your consigliere when I can, the advisor, the person you come to when all seems lost. But I think there's value in getting lost. I think there's a strength that only comes from fumbling your own way out of the darkness.

You're your own person, and some of the things you're going to love will strike me as insane, ugly, or unenjoyable. This is how large and wonderful the world is! Imagine if everyone loved the same thing; we'd all be battling for the same ten people. The miracle is how easily someone's cast-offs become someone else's beloved treasure. And I would be a sad, sad little man if I manipulated you into becoming a cookie-cutter clone of my desires. Love the music I hate, watch the movies I loathe, become a strong woman who knows where her bliss is and knows just what to do to get it.

Now, you're going to get bruised by life, and sometimes bruised consensually. But I won't tell you sex is bad, or that you're bad for wanting it, or that other people are bad from wanting it from you if you're willing to give it. I refuse to perpetuate, even through the plausible deniability of humor, the idea that the people my daughter is attracted to are my enemy.

I'm not the guard who locks you in the tower. Ideally, I am my daughter's safe space, a garden to return to when the world has proved a little too cruel, a place where she can recuperate and reflect upon past mistakes and know that here, there is someone who loves her wholeheartedly and will hug her until the tears dry.

That's what I want for you, sweetie. A bold life filled with big mistakes and bigger triumphs.

Now get out there and find all the things you f**king love, and vice versa.

Log in or register to post comments