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Thread: Shoplifter Shot and Killed

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by ftmom View Post
    This attitude disgusts me to tell you the truth. Again, her being shot, had absolutely nothing to do with the shoplifting. At that point things had escalated way beyond that. And saying that he should have just let her go is ridiculous. Should the cops let everyone who runs just get away? We will all be so safe then. My DH was almost run over by a fleeing suspect the other night, and yes, he drew his gun and jumped out of the way. If he had not had anywhere to jump to, then I hope he would have used that gun.....and btw, at that point the only thing they knew about this suspect was that he had stolen the vehicle.
    I'm fine with my attitude disgusting you. Who escalated things? HE DID when he pulled his gun and tried to pull a fleeing suspect from a moving car rather than call for back up. His mistake. She paid the ultimate price for his faux heroics and bad decision making.

    Should the cops SHOOT everyone unarmed who tries to get away? I gather you say yes. I think that they probably have better resources than simply reaching for their gun. Like, other officers, and help, and arresting the suspect at their home later, and whatnot. Maybe I just have more faith in the wit and ingenuity of the police officers I know. I really have a lot of respect and trust in our officers ~ and I am SO GRATEFUL that they don't simply resort to shooting everyone because they don't possess any other skills! That would be so scary! I would not want to live in an area like that, I would fear for me and my children to be innocent bystanders in some idiot running away and police playing bang bang on them. I wouldn't want to get caught in the crossfire!

    I simply think that human life is very valuable. Police officers lives, and shoplifters, too.

    ETA: I'm not sure I understand your story about your husband. He didn't fire his gun and kill the thief. So you are saying he let the thief get away instead of shooting him dead? Isn't that exactly what you are arguing AGAINST, didn't you say "we will all be so safe then" sarcastically? I'm all for what your husband did, he used discretion, no one died, and I'm curious to hear if the thief was later caught? If so, great police work and no one DEAD! Bravo!
    Last edited by Potter75; 12-12-2012 at 06:19 PM.
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  2. #92
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    I disagree that it was the PO who accelerated the situation. IMO, the very unruly woman accelerated the situation.

    No, PO should not fire at every opportunity, but if the woman was trying to run over and kill the PO, then what was he supposed to do?

    ~Bonita~

  3. #93
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    Get out of the way and call for back up. Pretty simple.

    I've stated that many times.

    His shooting the passenger in the neck didn't save him from being run over, he shot the passenger, so how did the shooting save his life, which you seem to feel was in imminent danger?

    was the woman unruly? Absolutely. Again, maybe we are just blessed with a very elite police force here in my suburb......but police officers are well trained in dealing with the unruly here and in the major (and high crime (Philadelphia) ) city we live near. They deal with unruly mentally ill people, drunks, people on drugs, they break up fights, solve domestic disputes, arrest unruly drug dealers.......usually, in fact, ALMOST ALWAYS without shooting unarmed people to death in front of their kids. The job of our officers is deescalate situations, diffuse them, and PREVENT unarmed people from being killed. He could have just as easily killed one of the children in this situation, in which he was unnecessarily using his firearm instead of calling for backup. Would you be defending him then, or is it only okay because the unruly shoplifter deserved two to the neck?

  4. #94
    Prolific Poster ftmom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potter75 View Post
    I'm fine with my attitude disgusting you. Who escalated things? HE DID when he pulled his gun and tried to pull a fleeing suspect from a moving car rather than call for back up. His mistake. She paid the ultimate price for his faux heroics and bad decision making.

    Should the cops SHOOT everyone unarmed who tries to get away? I gather you say yes. I think that they probably have better resources than simply reaching for their gun. Like, other officers, and help, and arresting the suspect at their home later, and whatnot. Maybe I just have more faith in the wit and ingenuity of the police officers I know. I really have a lot of respect and trust in our officers ~ and I am SO GRATEFUL that they don't simply resort to shooting everyone because they don't possess any other skills! That would be so scary! I would not want to live in an area like that, I would fear for me and my children to be innocent bystanders in some idiot running away and police playing bang bang on them. I wouldn't want to get caught in the crossfire!

    I simply think that human life is very valuable. Police officers lives, and shoplifters, too.
    I would like to see where you have read that he pulled his gun and tried to pull a suspect from a fleeing car. The most I have seen is that he opened the door on a stationary car. Nobody has even said that he touched the suspects at any point. He tried to prevent the car from being moved by opening the door (and I suspect that he probably just prevented it from being closed as he was so close behind them).

    And no, I dont think that anyone who flees should be shot, but I do think that an officer should be able to defend his own life. What in your opinion, made this womans life more valuable then the officers? Should he just stand there and let her run over him?

    I would suggest that you actually have very little faith in the wit and ingenuity of police officers, as you are very quick to condemn one for taking a life, instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt that maybe he had no choice in that moment.
    Kyla
    Mom to Arianna (5), Conner (3) and Trent (my baby)

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    Posting Addict ClairesMommy's Avatar
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    I'm actually surprised by the debaters who feel the guard did nothing wrong. Shocked would be a better word.

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    Of course they should be able to defend their own life. They should not be able to make bad decisions which needlessly put their life in danger, then shoot people dead and call it self defense.

    That calls for investigation and censure, if the facts bear that out. I'm interested to see if they do. Also, curious if you could answer my ETA in my prior post. I'm so curious about your story about your husband, if you don't mind.

    You can infer that I am lying all you like, but when one makes a series of bad choices, one can't say he had no choice. He made lots of choices, ending in choosing to shoot someone in the neck in front of children. I believe that had he chose differently/better along the way, he would not have been in a position of "no choices".

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    Quote Originally Posted by ftmom View Post
    I would like to see where you have read that he pulled his gun and tried to pull a suspect from a fleeing car. The most I have seen is that he opened the door on a stationary car. Nobody has even said that he touched the suspects at any point. He tried to prevent the car from being moved by opening the door (and I suspect that he probably just prevented it from being closed as he was so close behind them).

    And no, I dont think that anyone who flees should be shot, but I do think that an officer should be able to defend his own life. What in your opinion, made this womans life more valuable then the officers? Should he just stand there and let her run over him?

    I would suggest that you actually have very little faith in the wit and ingenuity of police officers, as you are very quick to condemn one for taking a life, instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt that maybe he had no choice in that moment.
    If he was opening the door on a stationary car then he was beside the car, not in the car's path, so it would not be reasonable for him to think his life was in danger even IF the car had started to move and accelerate at that point. To me this is highly contradictory. The use of deadly force needs to be justified, and not by some unreasonable perspective. To me the officer has completely failed to provide any verbal evidence (nor is there anything truly evidentiary from witnesses) that supports his claim that his life was in some kind of imminent danger. Fail.

    eta - I don't buy that the car was parked in such a way that they would need to back out, like of a stall or something. You're going to shoplift but you've parked your car in such away that it makes it harder to flee? Hardly the work of a seasoned shoplifter like she is purported to have been. And if he was at the driver's open door, being basically 'run over' I find a shot to the neck of the passenger to be a damn lucky shot.
    Last edited by ClairesMommy; 12-12-2012 at 07:23 PM.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potter75 View Post
    Of course they should be able to defend their own life. They should not be able to make bad decisions which needlessly put their life in danger, then shoot people dead and call it self defense.

    That calls for investigation and censure, if the facts bear that out. I'm interested to see if they do. Also, curious if you could answer my ETA in my prior post. I'm so curious about your story about your husband, if you don't mind.

    You can infer that I am lying all you like, but when one makes a series of bad choices, one can't say he had no choice. He made lots of choices, ending in choosing to shoot someone in the neck in front of children. I believe that had he chose differently/better along the way, he would not have been in a position of "no choices".
    Sorry I didnt see your ETA He didnt use his gun, well, actually, he used the butt of it to try to break the drivers window as he clung to the truck mirror (I really wish he didnt tell me he does these things). In this situation there was actually more than one cop involved and the suspect then rammed the police cruiser the other officer was in and got away for a short time. The gun was not discharged. However, when the situation was reviewed with cooler heads, he was told that he should have shot the guy as he was endangering the life of the other officer. It is their policy that they use lethal force if necessary when a members life is in danger.

    I actually dont think that he did make a series of bad choices. He saw a crime in progress, attempted to stop the suspects, was assaulted by them, followed them, opened the car door to prevent them from driving away......at this point he feared for his life and pulled his gun. I would be surprised if he even knew there were children in the car, as who brings their kids with them and does something like this? What about the situation did he do wrong? He is supposed to follow his departments procedure and I suspect that he did.....he may have even called for backup at some point that we dont know about. I suspect that an investigation will clear him, and I hope that it does.
    Kyla
    Mom to Arianna (5), Conner (3) and Trent (my baby)

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potter75 View Post
    when one makes a series of bad choices, one can't say he had no choice. He made lots of choices, ending in choosing to shoot someone in the neck in front of children. I believe that had he chose differently/better along the way, he would not have been in a position of "no choices".
    This is what I'm saying. He did not have to try to pull these women out of the car (or whatever he was doing when he pulled the car door open). That choice is his and his alone. If he had not done that, and had instead gotten on his radio or whatever and called in the plates, that woman would almost certainly still be alive. Also, I'm thinking that either they weren't backing up that fast if he had time to pull his gun and shoot someone (like, he would have had time to stagger out of the way), or he already had his gun drawn. I think human instinct would be to try to get away from someone who is chasing you with a gun, so it's pretty easy to picture this lady hitting the gas when she sees a gun in her face. I'm generally law abiding, but I can't say that I wouldn't do the same out of pure knee jerk reaction.
    -Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)

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  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClairesMommy View Post
    If he was opening the door on a stationary car then he was beside the car, not in the car's path, so it would not be reasonable for him to think his life was in danger even IF the car had started to move and accelerate at that point. To me this is highly contradictory. The use of deadly force needs to be justified, and not by some unreasonable perspective. To me the officer has completely failed to provide any verbal evidence (nor is there anything truly evidentiary from witnesses) that supports his claim that his life was in some kind of imminent danger. Fail.
    He clearly states that he was between the door and the seat of the car. So when the car started to accelerate backwards quickly, he was pulled along by the open door. He could easily fallen and been driven over.
    Kyla
    Mom to Arianna (5), Conner (3) and Trent (my baby)

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