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Thread: Shoplifter Shot and Killed

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by ftmom View Post
    He clearly states that he was between the door and the seat of the car. So when the car started to accelerate backwards quickly, he was pulled along by the open door. He could easily fallen and been driven over.
    but he didn't. He discharged his weapon when he was no longer in imminent danger. Unless he recklessly fired his weapon during his fall.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    This is what I'm saying. He did not have to try to pull these women out of the car (or whatever he was doing when he pulled the car door open). That choice is his and his alone. If he had not done that, and had instead gotten on his radio or whatever and called in the plates, that woman would almost certainly still be alive. Also, I'm thinking that either they weren't backing up that fast if he had time to pull his gun and shoot someone (like, he would have had time to stagger out of the way), or he already had his gun drawn. I think human instinct would be to try to get away from someone who is chasing you with a gun, so it's pretty easy to picture this lady hitting the gas when she sees a gun in her face. I'm generally law abiding, but I can't say that I wouldn't do the same out of pure knee jerk reaction.
    You can actually draw a gun very quickly if you know what you are doing with the holsters our members use.

    I dont know.....my knee jerk reaction to this is that a member who has 25 years on the force would not panic and unnecessarily shoot someone. I know a lot of police officers, and they are generally conscientious, calm people. It is very rare here for a gun to even be drawn so I am very willing to give this guy the benefit of the doubt and believe that he had no choice.

    I have also seen how the press persecutes police officers, so I take everything they say with a grain of salt.
    Kyla
    Mom to Arianna (5), Conner (3) and Trent (my baby)

  3. #103
    Prolific Poster ftmom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ethanwinfield View Post
    but he didn't. He discharged his weapon when he was no longer in imminent danger. Unless he recklessly fired his weapon during his fall.
    He was being pulled by an accelerating vehicle. He discharged his weapon in an effort to stop it. Would you feel better if he had waited until the wheel was on his chest to fire?

    As with the example of my DH, no body even ended up hurt, there was only a totaled car (well, two really) at the end of it, but he was still told by his boss that he should have discharged his weapon in accordance with departmental policy. For all we know, if he hadnt fired he could have slipped she would have put the car in drive and driven right over him. As it was, he fired, I suspect she put the car in drive right after that and speed away before he could be hurt. Or things could have happened just as they did but with no one being hurt. It is impossible to say what could have happened, it could have gone either way. But that doesnt mean he should just sit there and allow himself to be put in danger without trying to stop it.
    Kyla
    Mom to Arianna (5), Conner (3) and Trent (my baby)

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    This is what I'm saying. He did not have to try to pull these women out of the car (or whatever he was doing when he pulled the car door open). That choice is his and his alone. If he had not done that, and had instead gotten on his radio or whatever and called in the plates, that woman would almost certainly still be alive.
    If he had not tried to stop them, he would not have been doing his job. What is the point of having Police Officers if they are just going to calmly observe crime?

    ~Bonita~

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    If he had not tried to stop them, he would not have been doing his job. What is the point of having Police Officers if they are just going to calmly observe crime?
    He was an alone, off duty cop, on foot, who obviously did not have a great handle on the situation (as proved by the fact that he ended up in a life or death situation over shoplifting.) I'm not suggesting he should have let them go with no consequences, I'm suggesting that he should have called it in to the on-duty police officers who could have handled it.

    Again, my friend worked for security for Best Buy, and they were expressly told not to chase people once they got out the doors because it was considered "too dangerous" and also a liability issue. So another security guard at another store would have not been trying to pull people out of moving cars, and still would have been doing his job.
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  6. #106
    Prolific Poster ftmom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    He was an alone, off duty cop, on foot, who obviously did not have a great handle on the situation (as proved by the fact that he ended up in a life or death situation over shoplifting.) I'm not suggesting he should have let them go with no consequences, I'm suggesting that he should have called it in to the on-duty police officers who could have handled it.

    Again, my friend worked for security for Best Buy, and they were expressly told not to chase people once they got out the doors because it was considered "too dangerous" and also a liability issue. So another security guard at another store would have not been trying to pull people out of moving cars, and still would have been doing his job.
    Yes, but walmart tells there off duty police officers to follow their police departments policies, so although he was in the employ of walmart at the time, he was wearing his uniform and acting as a police officer (BTW, this seems so weird to me and you would never see that here.....maybe this sort of confusion is why), not a security guard.

    Oh, and to another of your points, our police officers are almost always alone. They do not have a 'partner' to back them up as on TV shows, they are out there on their own every day, all the time. If you see 2 members in a car together here, they are either training, or one of them is on light duties, and they are headed to lunch So the argument that he was alone doesnt wash for me. Police men approach strangers cars ALL THE TIME without any back up what so ever. If he was in his uniform, he would not be considered off duty here. He would be expected to act as a police officer any time he had the uniform on. Of course he was on foot, he would not have been able to approach them otherwise. I would be more critical of him if he had jumped in a vehicle and pursued them than just trying to prevent the car from leaving in the first place. That would have been way more dangerous to bystanders. I dont know that it is fair to say that he didnt have a good handle on the situation. Something unexpected happened to him. How many people would start driving with their door open (I would expect after his years on the force he could tell you the odds on this), and even then, what are the chances she would reverse instead of driving forward, in which case he would have been in no danger.

    This was a very unfortunate chain of events, and a woman ended up losing her life. And that is really sad, but I dont see why it needs to be any more than that.
    Kyla
    Mom to Arianna (5), Conner (3) and Trent (my baby)

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potter75 View Post
    Of course you would. Because you are white. ( me too) Because we are all betting you have just not have stolen. Flip the coin. You are poor, you are desperate, you have different morals. You are now going to jail and your kids are going Into to the foster care system.
    You run.

    And you deserve to DIE?????



    Nah, sorry but our system just isnt set up all vigalante style like that .
    Race plays no part in stupidity. If I was poor and needed to steal to live.. Which she did NOT, either she or her friend owned a car, had a place to live, I bet she even had a television, internet and a phone.. why.. because even the poorest AMERICANS usually do.. But say I was in a 3rd world country and kids were starving and I stole food.. I sure as hell wouldn't take my children with me. And I would definitely STOP if any law enforcement caught me. But I would not steal from a place with guards, nor cameras... le duh


    ETA- Oh and if I had an accomplice which I wouldn't and they got shot, and I drove away like an idiot... I would take them to the hospital and call 911 with their cell phone, muffle my voice and ditch them at the entrance.. Not drive them to my apartment complex.. seriously these women were short a more than a few brain cells.. and I am glad most criminals are so stupid
    Last edited by Rivergallery; 12-13-2012 at 01:58 AM.
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivergallery View Post
    Race plays no part in stupidity. If I was poor and needed to steal to live.. Which she did NOT, either she or her friend owned a car, had a place to live, I bet she even had a television, internet and a phone.. why.. because even the poorest AMERICANS usually do.. But say I was in a 3rd world country and kids were starving and I stole food.. I sure as hell wouldn't take my children with me. And I would definitely STOP if any law enforcement caught me. But I would not steal from a place with guards, nor cameras... le duh


    ETA- Oh and if I had an accomplice which I wouldn't and they got shot, and I drove away like an idiot... I would take them to the hospital and call 911 with their cell phone, muffle my voice and ditch them at the entrance.. Not drive them to my apartment complex.. seriously these women were short a more than a few brain cells.. and I am glad most criminals are so stupid
    I'm glad you feel very free in making assumptions about her life, but sure, I'll play along. Winona Rider had a pretty swank place to live when she was caught shoplifting, too. In fact, many of the people who shoplift on a frequent basis are actually wealthy. The Case of Caroline Giuliani -- Why So Many Smart, Rich Women Shoplift - Lemondrop.com But strangely they usually get very politely arrested, usually behind closed doors, if they ever do, not shot down like an animal. Interesting. Neither here nor there, however.

    Besides the fact that all hospitals have video cameras all over their entrances so you would be caught dropping the body outside, your plan sounds brilliant! I'm not saying these women were mastermind criminals. Clearly they were simple petty thieves. That makes this that much more sad, to me. I'm guessing they had children in the car not because they thought that it was a great idea, but because maybe they didn't have anyone to watch them. Maybe they didn't have family locally ~ they were displaced after Katrina. Maybe they couldn't afford daycare. Maybe the kids dad left them in the lurch. Maybe they simply weren't raised right and didn't know better. None of those things means that they "deserved what they got". You may be glad that most criminals are "stupid" but surely I am not. I would disagree that they are stupid (I bet many are a heck of a lot more street smart than you) but I would agree that a majority of criminals are uneducated. And unfortunately, when we allow our schools to go to crap and don't have a good handle on WHO we are letting homeschool their children and we raise kids in poverty and hunger and fear, we are going to have a higher and higher percentage of uneducated people in our society. Which means more criminals. Which is a big problem.

    Some security guard was physically ill equipped enough to not be able to physically stop a woman with purse as a weapon, and then chased down people in a car (alone on food), thereby escalating the situation into one in which he felt justified in shooting them. This altercation never should have gone outside outside of the store. On duty officers should have been called, and no one should have died.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by ftmom View Post
    (BTW, this seems so weird to me and you would never see that here.....maybe this sort of confusion is why)
    I could be mistaken, but I believe here, what they do is the store pays the Police Department for a presence at their store, and then that Police Officer in turn gets paid over time. I do not believe the store directly pays the Police Officer and they are still considered "On Duty".

    ~Bonita~

  10. #110
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    Googled some information in another city about how they do it.

    Official Site of the City of Phoenix - How to Hire an Off-Duty Police Officer

    ~Bonita~

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