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  1. #101
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    OT - I also wanted to say thank you for giving me something else to think about today. I really needed the distraction.

    ~Bonita~

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    Community Host Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    I understand what you are say, but there are many that disagree.
    Disagree with what? They think that insurance companies could pay out to these high cost customers without a wider customer base? I hate to be a jerk, but math. Let's say that they take in $500 a month for sick person. They're taking in $6000 a year. Let's say that sick person has a couple of surgeries that cost $100,000. That means they have to have have 15 healthy people to break even. That's why they used to deny coverage to these people. If they have to provide covereage to them, they have to make that money somewhere else.
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  3. #103
    Posting Addict KimPossible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    John Boener now has the votes to pass a clean CR which would end the shut down, but so far he hasn't allowed the vote. Can we at least agree that he is responsible for the continuing shut down now and until he allows the vote?

    House Now Has The Votes To End Government Shutdown, But It Won't
    Actually i blame the extremist contingency in the party more than i do him. I think Boehner is in a difficult position as he is expected to follow the Hastert Rule and I can very much sympathize with the difficulty there is in just simply abandoning that. In this instance, i would likely applaud him if he did, but i can kind of understand why he might not.

    Trust me, i'd like him to...i don't want to drag this out forever, but thats not really a little flippant decision to make it seems.
    Last edited by KimPossible; 10-02-2013 at 04:39 PM.

  4. #104
    Community Host Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimPossible View Post
    Actually i blame the extremist contingency in the party more than i do him. I think Boehner is in a difficult position as he is expected to follow the Hastert Rule and I can very much sympathize with the difficulty there is in just simply abandoning that. In this instance, i would likely applaud him if he did, but i can kind of understand why he might not.

    Trust me, i'd like him to...i don't want to drag this out forever, but thats not really a little flippant decision to make it seems.
    Understand, but he's done it before. And the Hastert Rule isn't an actual rule that he has to follow, it's more of a philosophical standpoint. If he chooses to follow it to the detriment of the country, I still hold him responsible.

    Hastert Rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    • John Boehner (2011–current): As of May 14, 2013, of the nine bills and joint resolutions passed by the 113th Congress, four of them were passed without a majority of the Republican caucus in support.[12]
    In December 2012 Boehner told his caucus in a conference call "I’m not interested in passing something with mostly Democrat votes" and that did not have the support of the majority of the Republican caucus.[13][14] Nonetheless, Boehner allowed a vote on January 1, 2013 on the American Taxpayer Relief Act of 2012 (also known as the "fiscal cliff bill") with only 85 out of 241 Republicans in favor (a support level of only 35%) and the bill passed with the support of 90% of Democrats (172 out of 191).[15][16] The bill's passage marked the first time in more than ten years that a measure passed a Republican-controlled House when opposed by a majority of House Republicans.[17] In response, former House Speaker Hastert criticized Boehner for not adhering to the "majority of the majority" governing principle by saying, "Maybe you can do it once, maybe you can do it twice, but when you start making deals when you have to get Democrats to pass the legislation, you are not in power anymore."[18][19]
    • Two weeks later, on January 15, 2013, Boehner allowed a vote on aid to victims of Hurricane Sandy to take place without the support of a majority of the Republican caucus. [20] The vote passed with 241 votes, but only 49 of the votes were from Republicans or a mere 21% of the majority.[21] Since then some notable Republicans have publicly questioned whether the "majority of the majority" rule is still viable or have proposed jettisoning it altogether.[21][22][23]
    • In spite of all the criticism, on February 28, 2013 Boehner brought a third bill for a vote on the floor of the house which did not have support of majority of Republicans. The bill, an extension of the Violence Against Women Act, received the vote of only 38% of the Republicans in the House of Representatives.[24]
    • On April 9, 2013, the "rule" was ignored a fourth time, on a bill about federal acquisition of historic sites. The bill was passed with more than two thirds of the House vote but without a majority of the GOP caucus.[25] Shortly thereafter, Boehner said, "Listen: It was never a rule to begin with. And certainly my prerogative – my intention is to always pass bills with strong Republican support."[26]
    -Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)

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  5. #105
    Posting Addict KimPossible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    I disagree. I think that there are many (not you) who are in support of Obama and Obamacare that are spitting mad about this that would be in complete support of the same action if it was for a cause they cared passionately about.
    Well i don't think stewing about annoying people who just follow party lines and aren't willing to objectively look at a situation is helpful. Are we debating if these actions are good or bad? Or are we debating what portion of democrats are hypocrites?
    ..
    If we are debating the first question (which I think we are)...my opinion hasn't changed. I think its wrong for the republican party to do this.

    What i find funny in all of this..and all the crticism being thrown at democrats for hypothetically being hypocrtical...is that I have yet to see anyone conservative be able to give a straight forward objective opinion on the actions taken by the republicans. The consistent response in this entire thread has not been "Yes its wrong" its been an avoidance of saying that and trying to talk about the evils of the democrats.

    If there is anyone today that is proving an inability to think objectively...i don't think its the democrats.
    Last edited by KimPossible; 10-02-2013 at 04:52 PM.
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  6. #106
    Posting Addict KimPossible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    Understand, but he's done it before. And the Hastert Rule isn't an actual rule that he has to follow, it's more of a philosophical standpoint. If he chooses to follow it to the detriment of the country, I still hold him responsible.

    Hastert Rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Yes i know its not an actual rule....but i don't think that really makes the decision any easier if your entire party has certain expectations that heavily affect how you are viewed as doing your job.

    This article had a good explanation of the times he has deviated and why this is different:

    Opinion: In shutdown, tough choices for Boehner - CNN.com

    So what are Boehner's options at this point? He could, as he has done previously, pass a funding bill on the backs of House Democrats. The 2011 and 2012 omnibus spending bills, the 2011 Budget Control Act, and the 2012 Payroll Tax Bill all passed the House because of Democratic support. And earlier this year, Boehner brought the Violence Against Women Act and the Hurricane Sandy Relief bill to the floor, despite opposition from a majority of House Republicans. These bills had bipartisan support in the Senate, making it difficult for Boehner to dig his heels in and stand behind his conservative majority.
    Flash forward to now. What is the House speaker's calculus, given that the Senate passed its funding bill on a party-line vote?
    Absent the pressure to appease Republican senators, Boehner will have a tough time justifying any move to defy the will of his party's majority. Convincing House Republicans to pass the Senate's funding bill and re-open the federal government will require him to lead in a way that may not be possible, should he wish to remain speaker.
    Sure he can act autonomously without any regard to the expectations put on him as Speaker...but I objectively can understand thats not necessarily as realistic of a decision to make as I'd like it to be.

    ETA: I'm not trying to say you aren't objective. Just trying to emphasize to some others that I can be!
    Last edited by KimPossible; 10-02-2013 at 04:54 PM.
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  7. #107
    Community Host Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    LOL No, I get it. He's in a tough position. My thought is, it's not unlikely that this whole debacle might cost him his job regardless, so I guess my Pollyanna hope is that he'll put his country before his party. Did you see the Onion Point/Counterpoint about it?

    The Republican Party Cannot Stand By And Let Obamacare Destroy This Country vs. Help Me | The Onion - America's Finest News Source
    Last edited by Alissa_Sal; 10-02-2013 at 05:03 PM.
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    Disagree with what? They think that insurance companies could pay out to these high cost customers without a wider customer base? I hate to be a jerk, but math. Let's say that they take in $500 a month for sick person. They're taking in $6000 a year. Let's say that sick person has a couple of surgeries that cost $100,000. That means they have to have have 15 healthy people to break even. That's why they used to deny coverage to these people. If they have to provide covereage to them, they have to make that money somewhere else.
    Disagree that every American should have to have health insurance. (Again, not me. I think it is foolish to not have insurance) They think it is not the Governments business to tell them they have to have something they do not want.
    Quote Originally Posted by KimPossible View Post
    What i find funny in all of this..and all the crticism being thrown at democrats for hypothetically being hypocrtical...is that I have yet to see anyone conservative yet be able to give a straight forward objective opinion on the actions taken by the republicans. The consistent response in this entire thread has not been "Yes its wrong" its been an avoidance of saying that and trying to talk about the evils of the democrats.

    If there is anyone today that is proving an inability to think objectively...i don't think its the democrats.
    I have never said I do not think the Republicans are wrong. I completely think it is wrong that a Government shutdown was even on the table. I have never said otherwise. I just can not see saying Democrats are 100% perfect and are in no way to blame.

    If the Democrats were not playing the same game, they would pass something that would allow certain functions to be funded. I do not see how what they are doing is any better than what Republicans are doing. They are using American people as pawns in a political game.


    Republicans want to fund parts of the government, but that wouldn't end the shutdown

    ~Bonita~

  9. #109
    Community Host Alissa_Sal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlyssaEimers View Post
    Disagree that every American should have to have health insurance. (Again, not me. I think it is foolish to not have insurance) They think it is not the Governments business to tell them they have to have something they do not want.
    I get that, but that still doesn't answer my question. Gloria said that a lot of people think that Obamacare should be replaced with something. My question was, replaced with what? You said replaced with Obamacare only minus the individual mandate. But you can't replace it with Obamacare minus the individual mandate; the insurance companies will implode. So since that won't work, are there any other ideas? You can't just say "Don't make us buy insurance." Fine, does that mean they want to keep things the way they were?

    I have never said I do not think the Republicans are wrong. I completely think it is wrong that a Government shutdown was even on the table. I have never said otherwise. I just can not see saying Democrats are 100% perfect and are in no way to blame.

    If the Democrats were not playing the same game, they would pass something that would allow certain functions to be funded. I do not see how what they are doing is any better than what Republicans are doing. They are using American people as pawns in a political game.


    Republicans want to fund parts of the government, but that wouldn't end the shutdown
    I don't think anyone has ever claimed that the Democrats are perfect, but I don't understand how you are blaming them for this shut down because you think that they would do the same thing except they aren't, but they might, so therefore they are to blame for this thing? I don't get it.

    And do you really think that it makes sense that instead of passing a clean bill, the House just gets to pick the departments that they personally like and only fund those, and that is supposed to fly instead? That was a very silly solution.
    Last edited by Alissa_Sal; 10-02-2013 at 05:22 PM.
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alissa_Sal View Post
    I get that, but that still doesn't answer my question. Gloria said that a lot of people think that Obamacare should be replaced with something. My question was, replaced with what? You said replaced with Obamacare only minus the individual mandate. But you can't replace it with Obamacare minus the individual mandate; the insurance companies will implode. So since that won't work, are there any other ideas? You can't just say "Don't make us buy insurance." Fine, does that mean they want to keep things the way they were?
    I think a great many would say they would rather have things the way they were than to have Obamacare.

    Me Personally, I would have to sit down and really research before I could say which is better. I think both are deeply flawed.

    ~Bonita~

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