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  1. #91
    Posting Addict Rivergallery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunnyfufu View Post
    Murder is unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. Abortion is horrible and sad and many, many things, but it is not illegal. Abortion is not murder.

    Many here will remember my stance on abortion. What this surrogate did is horrible and sad and many, many things as well. What I cannot understand is how what she did, is legal? I am not talking about not aborting.

    It is not honorable or heroic. It is wrong.

    It was her choice to not abort, regardless of her contract. A contract is only as good as the parties who sign onto it. It was her choice to not be paid for the surrogacy, by fleeing the state, not terminating, by all of the other shennannigans. But to be clear. . .It most certainly was not her choice to arrange the adoption. It was a baby that gestated in her. Yes she is connected, but she is not the mother. She is not the parent.


    The whole story makes me deeply sad. In no way is this woman a hero.
    Law has nothing to do with whether something is murder or not.. or right or wrong or not.. I do not nor will I EVER base my morals on what society thinks is wrong or right.. Those that do can fall into a dangerous trap.

    I do agree that should shouldn't probably have taken the baby as her own after it was born.

    Bunnyfu - also that is not even half of the graphic nature of a true abortion.. FACE it.
    DH-Aug 30th 1997 Josiah - 6/3/02 Isaac 7/31/03

  2. #92
    Posting Addict Rivergallery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danifo View Post
    I feel that if you are really against abortion, you would not sign a contract saying you would do it on the decision of another person. I don't think she did it to screw them over. I think she naively went into this though thinking she would carry and deliver a baby and when that turned out not to be the case, she freaked out.

    To me this case is about the right of the surogate to decide what to do with her body versus the bio parents. This can't be about abortion because if you think abortion is wrong, then this lady did the right thing. If you take abortion out of the situtation, what rights does she have? The contracts are usually full of things the surrogate will and won't do.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92627&page=1

    I know abortion is legal for any reason. In the initial case, there are serious birth defects which I can see people terminating over. I can also see reductions having 8 embryos. I cannot understand a reduction because you only want one child rather than twins.
    "reductions" is murder. Let's call it what it is.
    DH-Aug 30th 1997 Josiah - 6/3/02 Isaac 7/31/03

  3. #93
    Posting Addict ClairesMommy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivergallery View Post
    Law has nothing to do with whether something is murder or not.. or right or wrong or not.. I do not nor will I EVER base my morals on what society thinks is wrong or right.. Those that do can fall into a dangerous trap.

    I do agree that should shouldn't probably have taken the baby as her own after it was born.

    Bunnyfu - also that is not even half of the graphic nature of a true abortion.. FACE it.
    And fortunately, society doesn't need to base its laws on your morals. "Murder" is a legal term. Whether you accept it or not, bunnyfufu is right. Murder has everything to do with the law and zero to do with your emotional definition of the word.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danifo View Post
    I feel that if you are really against abortion, you would not sign a contract saying you would do it on the decision of another person. I don't think she did it to screw them over. I think she naively went into this though thinking she would carry and deliver a baby and when that turned out not to be the case, she freaked out.

    To me this case is about the right of the surogate to decide what to do with her body versus the bio parents. This can't be about abortion because if you think abortion is wrong, then this lady did the right thing. If you take abortion out of the situtation, what rights does she have? The contracts are usually full of things the surrogate will and won't do.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92627&page=1

    I know abortion is legal for any reason. In the initial case, there are serious birth defects which I can see people terminating over. I can also see reductions having 8 embryos. I cannot understand a reduction because you only want one child rather than twins.
    I absolutely agree with the bolded. The fact that she did totally debunks the whole "hero" argument many are making here. I think that this woman actually saw an opportunity to make herself some money in our sadly opportunistic sensationalistic story selling culture. I doubt she is intelligent to forsee that if she does try to capitalize on selling the story the parents will sue and surely win the sum total of the proceeds as damages.

    To the second bolded ~ Yes, but only up to a point. To the point of not aborting. It SHOULDN"T be about her deciding what to do with someone ELSES child. That child is NOT hers. She had no business then adopting out the child, that part is when the story gets sick and wrong to me, you know?

    I think that the twin story is an entirely different debate.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potter75 View Post
    A 22 year old moaning all night in pain wearing a diaper and a feeding tube is NOT like other 22 year olds, and I've seen it, and I've seen both the toll it takes on the families, and I've read JUDGMENT on those families from people like you, and it just turns my stomach. Because until you have walked a single yard in their shoes, let alone a mile, you have nothing to judge.
    Well I think you are doing a little judging yourself when you have no idea what you are talking about, since I have lived it through my own nephew. The toll on your family is what you make it. If you see it as a burden then that is what it will be. But it can also be a blessing. My nephew had the mental capacity of a 3 month old, but he still went to school. The other teachers and kids and many other people loved him and many people were enriched by his life as tragic as it may seem to you.
    Mom to Lee, Jake, Brandon, Rocco
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    I never consider a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosopy, as a cause for withdrawing from a friend. --Thomas Jefferson

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    Well I think you are doing a little judging yourself when you have no idea what you are talking about, since I have lived it through my own nephew. The toll on your family is what you make it. If you see it as a burden then that is what it will be. But it can also be a blessing. My nephew had the mental capacity of a 3 month old, but he still went to school. The other teachers and kids and many other people loved him and many people were enriched by his life as tragic as it may seem to you.

    What do you mean I have no idea what I'm talking about? And what does your nephew have to do with you, a working parent with 8 kids? You didn't make any choices about to have or not have or to care for or farm out care for him. I'm talking about how I personally don't judge the decisions parents make surrounding very ill fetuses or living children. I understand that the family in this debate, or the parents of your nephew have to all do what is right for their individual family, and that those choices can vary widely, and are INCREDIBLY painful and filled with difficulty and tears and heartache. And you blithely write this family off with a "their kid should be dead to them because they wanted to abort it so good for this woman for giving it away or stealing it!". That is terrible of you to say. So yes, I will say that, and no, you having an ill nephew means nothing when it comes to you blindly okaying kidnapping because you are anti abortion.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danifo View Post
    I feel that if you are really against abortion, you would not sign a contract saying you would do it on the decision of another person. I don't think she did it to screw them over. I think she naively went into this though thinking she would carry and deliver a baby and when that turned out not to be the case, she freaked out.

    To me this case is about the right of the surogate to decide what to do with her body versus the bio parents. This can't be about abortion because if you think abortion is wrong, then this lady did the right thing. If you take abortion out of the situtation, what rights does she have? The contracts are usually full of things the surrogate will and won't do.
    I agree with this portion of your post. It is not about if abortion is right or wrong.


    -------------------------------------------------

    To the debate in general - Regardless of what side of the issue you are on, I do not believe it is necessary to call anyone bad mothers or to attack anyone personally. We are all great mothers and this is just a debate board.
    Danifo likes this.

    ~Bonita~

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    Bonita, could you please highlight where someone called someone else a bad mother? It is sometimes frustrating when you throw in non sequiturs like that........you are admonishing people for things that aren't happening in the debate and it disrupts the flow of the debate. Thanks.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloriaInTX View Post
    Again pulling a plug is ALLOWING nature to take its course. They are being KEPT ALIVE by a machine and pulling the plug just allows them to die on their own. To do an abortion on a baby you have to actually kill them. Most of the time by cutting the baby up in the womb or injecting them with a lethal drug. That IS murder no matter what other name is used to make everyone feel better about it.
    The point is that somebody makes that choice. Somebody decides they are going to let "nature take its course" by terminating life support.

    At least we agree that the death penalty is murder.
    Potter75 and Alissa_Sal like this.

  10. #100
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    Looks left. Looks right.

    Death penalty inspired crickets? Innnnnnteresting, as Smithers would say.
    bunnyfufu and Jessica80 like this.

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